hello

sarah bennett said:

[snip]
In Hebrew, origins *are* definitions.

I guess this is where our difference of opinion lies. I have been
talking about what the word 'shiksa' means in English and the modern
American form of Yiddish. The entire discussion arose because an
English speaker used the word here, writing in English. In this
language context, it clearly should be defined as meaning simply a
non-Jewish female.

Quoted message said:

I am not talking about words from
one language that mean something else in another.

I am, in your terms.

Quoted message said:

I am talking about a Hebrew word

I am talking about a Yinglish word.

Quoted message said:

used by people who spoke Hebrew

used by people who speak modern American English, which includes a
number of commonly used Yiddish expressions.

[snip the rest as irrelevant]

aem said:

sarah bennett said:

[snip]
In Hebrew, origins *are* definitions.

I guess this is where our difference of opinion lies. I have been
talking about what the word 'shiksa' means in English and the modern
American form of Yiddish. The entire discussion arose because an
English speaker used the word here, writing in English. In this
language context, it clearly should be defined as meaning simply a
non-Jewish female.

The original usage, even in this country (Yes, this is an international
forum, but I'll go along with your illusion that only people from the US
speak English.), is a pejorative, meaning "abomination". Just because
the original speakers of this word in this country were hesitant to tell
the people they were using these terms to refer to, what the actual
meanings were does not change the meaning. If I use the Dutch word
"lullepraat" to mean "daisies", tell people that is what it means, and
it happens to become a new American slang term (much to the amusement of
the Dutch, I am sure), it doesn't change what the word means.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I am not talking about words from
one language that mean something else in another.

I am, in your terms.

Quoted message said:

I am talking about a Hebrew word

I am talking about a Yinglish word.

Yinglish is not a language.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

used by people who spoke Hebrew

used by people who speak modern American English, which includes a
number of commonly used Yiddish expressions.

[snip the rest as irrelevant]

Well, I guess this proves that Americans are just plain stupid.

--

saerah

"Peace is not an absence of war, it is a virtue, a state of mind, a
disposition for benevolence, confidence, justice."
-Baruch Spinoza

"There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly
what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear
and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There
is another theory which states that this has already happened."
-Douglas Adams

sarah bennett said:

Because most people think it means "gentile woman". And it doesn't.
Personally, I would not fancy referring to myself as a slimy creeping
thing, but you can do what you want 🙂

I understood that the word was an insult and also that most people
don't know it and don't mean it to be so. There's a wide range of
people's opinions about using ethnic "nicknames" for themselves and
others, but I'm with you on this and appreciate your pointing it out.

Sue(tm)
Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself!

sarah bennett said:

Because most people think it means "gentile woman". And it doesn't.
Personally, I would not fancy referring to myself as a slimy creeping
thing, but you can do what you want 🙂

I understood that the word was an insult and also that most people
don't know it and don't mean it to be so. There's a wide range of
people's opinions about using ethnic "nicknames" for themselves and
others, but I'm with you on this and appreciate your pointing it out.

Sue(tm)
Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself!

Curly Sue said:

Quoted message said:

I understood that the word was an insult and also that most people

don't know it and don't mean it to be so. There's a wide range of
people's opinions about using ethnic "nicknames" for themselves and
others, but I'm with you on this and appreciate your pointing it out.

Du ferstachaist Yiddish... mitten a shicksa name like Curly Sue...
nishst ferdraitah meina kup. Shicksa means literally a non Jewish
female[period]... no more, no less Any conotation attached, positive
or negative, is totally dependant on the context confered by the
speaker. Actually the only negative context can be associated is from
the fact that a shiksa can't produce a Jewish child, but then the only
negative is that it's the Jewish parent's son who is the putz... but
conveys no negativity whatsoever towards the shiksa, not that she's
bad, good, or indifferent, only towards the son because it's not
possible for a non Jewish woman to bear a Jewish child.... and in fact
any left over negativity from that confered on the son automatically
gets confered on the Jewish parents for raising such a shanda (an
embarrassment), a putz. But then by the time that shiksa daughter in
law produces the fifth healthy grandchild she gets raised to sainthood
in the eyes of the parents, she becomes their lovely shiksa Goddess,
she was never anything evil... but the son, unless he becomes a doctor
he'll forever be the putz. Shiksa is only an insult when coming from
bitter/envious lips, but then so is everything from bitter/envious
lips, and that's evil.

Sheldon