Heavy Bike Rationalization

Sorni said:

Jose Rizal said:

Yes, among other things such as "sick" and "air", terms which are really meaningless but are in
common use amongst "off-road" riders because they lend colour to activities that are otherwise
perfectly described by common words.

Jose, could you PLEASE post in plain text??? Last time I'll ask...

He is. I suspect, since you are using the world's worst widely deployed newsreader, that it is
messing with the displayed article.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?

Per Elmsäter:

Quoted message said:

Jose Rizal said:

Per Elmsäter:

Quoted message said:

>> With all the major influences of roadbiking coming from the european continent I don't think
>> it's more than fair that the english speaking mountain bikers get e little bit of a
>> headstart.
>
> What about non-English speaking mountain bikers? Are they just doomed to fail in the sport...
>
Absolutely. With all good mountain bikes built in the USA how do they stand a chance. They
won't even be able to buy the right bike because they can't read the specs. OK I know they are
manufactured in Asia, but nevertheless they are US produced bikes.

It's hard to buy that argument. First of all, I haven't heard or read of anyone complaining of
losing a mountain bike competition because of not having the right bike, due to inability to
read the specs. Secondly, you'll notice, without much effort, that most bike companies have
branches in many countries; these are staffed by locals and offer descriptions of the product at
the local language. Most of these companies also have multi-lingual websites. For example,
Specialized has offices all over Europe, Sweden included.

Yeah but even my swedish Specialized dealer is selling the Stumpjumper as a Stumpjumper. How am I
supposed to know it's really a "stubbhoppare" if that's what I'm looking for. Not to mention that
brain they stuck up there behind the seatpost.

Yes, but the model name is the last thing you worry about in buying a bike, or is it a big deal for
you? Does Specialized have a Swedish manual or not?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You lost me now buddy ( please note I didn't call you dude ). So tell me another word for body
english.

Body language.

No way José. Body language is something non english speaking people use to accentuate their words.

Or to convey in a non-verbal way how people feel and think.

Quoted message said:

Just take any Italian. If it wasn't for his body language nobody would understand what he is
saying including his family.

Hmm, wonder how you do with the ladies then...

Benjamin Weiner:

Quoted message said:

Jose Rizal _@_._ said:

Per Elmsäter:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You lost me now buddy ( please note I didn't call you dude ). So tell me another word for body
english.

Quoted message said:

Body language.

Ahem. Body english refers to contorting one's body, e.g. for purposes of maintaining balance (on
bike, foot, surfboard, whatever) and is probably a back-formation from the use of "english" to
mean putting spin on a billiard ball by striking it off-center.
dictionary.reference.comsearchOpen ↗ if you wish a reference.

2 strikes. You didn't understand the meaning of the term from the reference you provided.

"1. Bodily movement in a usually unconscious attempt to influence the movement of a propelled
object, such as a ball.
2. The usually irregular movement or spin of a propelled object as if it were influenced by this
twisting."

To be gained from these definitions is the fact that the movement of the person's body has _no_
influence on the object being referred to. Your billiard ball spin theory is also incorrect, since
the "body english" definition refers to the twisting of someone's body to try to influence the
direction of the ball's path _after_ the shot has been made.

So when you refer to the use of "body english" to describe someone on a mountain bike using his/her
body to move the bike, it's utterly incorrect since the term, according to the useful
dictionary.com, refers to body movement which _does__not_ influence the object under motion, but
appears _as_if_ it does.

Quoted message said:

"Body language" means nonverbal communication through use of posture, expression, etc. For
example, if I cross my arms, purse my lips, furrow my brow, and glare at you, it suggests that I'm
not looking favorably on your actions, behavior, or words. Perhaps it's not anger, but merely that
I think that what you're saying is of little merit.

True. And if I look at you with a raised eyebrow, this can mean I'm quite incredulous with your
obviously incorrect theory, or merely bemused at the attempt you made at arguing against something
you have an imperfect understanding of. However, this definition of "body language" means that it is
body motion which can potentially affect others, so in a cult language where nothing much makes
sense, which is more descriptive of the body motions of a cyclist?

Quoted message said:

It is, however, funny that you are lecturing a Scandinavian in English about the evils of
privileging the word "english," so please continue.

I fail to see any humour in it, but perhaps it doesn't take much to amuse you, especially if you
misunderstand terms like you did.

Quoted message said:

Humor, much less irony, is a resource in short supply and to be valued wherever it is found.

Strike 3: you're out, I'm afraid. You really refer to contradiction, rather than irony. Look up the
definitions of both; you know the URL.

Per Elmsäter:

Quoted message said:

Benjamin Weiner wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It is, however, funny that you are lecturing a Scandinavian in English about the evils of
privileging the word "english," so please continue. Humor, much less irony, is a resource in
short supply and to be valued wherever it is found.

I thought I was lecturing him 😉

You do wish, I'm sure.

Sheldon Brown:

Quoted message said:

Per Elmsäter asked:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> There are many words which are in common use in the English language (as I'm sure in yours
>> also) that are really "slangs", for which original words exist and are perfectly adequate,
>> and which often are the opposite of what's meant.
>
>
> You lost me now buddy ( please note I didn't call you dude ). So tell me another word for body
> english.

Andy Muzi replied:

Quoted message said:

Isn't 'body english' a twisting movement around the abdomen, as one dances with a [real, non-
electronic] pinball machine?

Yes, this is actually derived from a slang usage involving billiards/pool. To use "English" is to
strike the cue ball with the cue (stick) somewhere off center, either vertically or horizontally
or both, to deliberately cause the cue ball to spin.

This affects the direction the cue ball will move on rebound after striking the object ball.

Not so sure about this. Several definitions from dictionary.com:

n. 1. Bodily movement in a usually unconscious attempt to influence the movement of a propelled
object, such as a ball.
2. The usually irregular movement or spin of a propelled object as if it were influenced by
this twisting.

n : a motion of the body by a player as if to make an object already propelled go in the
desired direction

It's defined as basically the twisting of one's body in an attempt to influence movement of an
object, without physically touching that object. The term may have come from billiards or pool, but
I think even there it refers to the contortions people make to try to make the ball go the way they
want to, after the shot has been taken and without touching theball again.

Jose Rizal:

Quoted message said:

Sheldon Brown:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yes, this is actually derived from a slang usage involving billiards/pool. To use "English" is
to strike the cue ball with the cue (stick) somewhere off center, either vertically or
horizontally or both, to deliberately cause the cue ball to spin.

This affects the direction the cue ball will move on rebound after striking the object ball.

Not so sure about this. Several definitions from dictionary.com:

n. 1. Bodily movement in a usually unconscious attempt to influence the movement of a propelled
object, such as a ball.
2. The usually irregular movement or spin of a propelled object as if it were influenced by this
twisting.

n : a motion of the body by a player as if to make an object already propelled go in the desired
direction

It's defined as basically the twisting of one's body in an attempt to influence movement of an
object, without physically touching that object. The term may have come from billiards or pool,
but I think even there it refers to the contortions people make to try to make the ball go the way
they want to, after the shot has been taken and without touching theball again.

I refer of course to the term "body english", and not to the origin of the term "use English", which
Sheldon referred to, and which is correct.

Another reference: bartleby.com908.htmlOpen ↗

Jose "Not Presuming To Correct The Master" Rizal

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yes, this is actually derived from a slang usage involving billiards/pool. To use "English" is to
strike the cue ball with the cue (stick) somewhere off center, either vertically or horizontally
or both, to deliberately cause the cue ball to spin.

This affects the direction the cue ball will move on rebound after striking the object ball.

Not so sure about this. Several definitions from dictionary.com:

n. 1. Bodily movement in a usually unconscious attempt to influence the movement of a propelled
object, such as a ball.
2. The usually irregular movement or spin of a propelled object as if it were influenced by this
twisting.

n : a motion of the body by a player as if to make an object already propelled go in the desired
direction

It's defined as basically the twisting of one's body in an attempt to influence movement of an
object, without physically touching that object. The term may have come from billiards or pool,
but I think even there it refers to the contortions people make to try to make the ball go the way
they want to, after the shot has been taken and without touching theball again.

I have to disagree Jose. You've interpreted parts 1 and 2 of your first definition of (body) English
in such a way as to claim something they don't. There's nothing in the word 'unconscious' that means
imaginary. Just because you do something unconcsiously doesn't mean that it has no effect. Moreover,
it says usually unconscious. In billiards, much of the English that players put on the ball is
conscious. Just watch players who specialize in trick shots to see what's meant. Furthermore, to say
that an object moves 'as if it were influenced' is not a claim about whether it is or is not
actually influenced. It just describes the movement. The cause is left open. For example, a bicycle
might swerve as if the rider were drunk when in fact it's a mechanical problem. Or, he or she might
actually have been drunk. Only in the second part of your definition (that is, the less common
meaning) is it possible to conclude that body English is an attempt to influence the movement of an
object "without physically touching it". The general meaning of body English is roughly synonomous
with what is commonly called 'putting spin' on a ball and only secondarily means attempted
telekinesis.

Rob Strickland

Robert Strickland:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not so sure about this. Several definitions from dictionary.com:

n. 1. Bodily movement in a usually unconscious attempt to influence the movement of a propelled
object, such as a ball.
2. The usually irregular movement or spin of a propelled object as if it were influenced by this
twisting.

n : a motion of the body by a player as if to make an object already propelled go in the desired
direction

It's defined as basically the twisting of one's body in an attempt to influence movement of an
object, without physically touching that object. The term may have come from billiards or pool,
but I think even there it refers to the contortions people make to try to make the ball go the
way they want to, after the shot has been taken and without touching theball again.

I have to disagree Jose. You've interpreted parts 1 and 2 of your first definition of (body)
English in such a way as to claim something they don't. There's nothing in the word 'unconscious'
that means imaginary. Just because you do something unconcsiously doesn't mean that it has no
effect. Moreover, it says usually unconscious.

Read the second definition again, and take note of the phrase "as if". The word "unconscious" is
irrelevant.

Quoted message said:

In billiards, much of the English that players put on the ball is conscious. Just watch players
who specialize in trick shots to see what's meant. Furthermore, to say that an object moves 'as if
it were influenced' is not a claim about whether it is or is not actually influenced. It just
describes the movement. The cause is left open.

Look up the etymology of the phrase "body English".

There are two related phrases;
1. "using English", which means putting a spin on a billiard ball to cause it to move in an
irregular path.
2. "body English", which describes the contortions that the billiard player undergoes after making
the shot, as a conscious/unconscious attempt to try to influence the ball's path. You see this
movement with bowlers also, as one other example. After making the shot, the player squirms and
twists, usually accompanied by much grimacing and prayers, as if it will influence the direction
of the ball's path.

Quoted message said:

For example, a bicycle might swerve as if the rider were drunk when in fact it's a mechanical
problem. Or, he or she might actually have been drunk. Only in the second part of your definition
(that is, the less common meaning) is it possible to conclude that body English is an attempt to
influence the movement of an object "without physically touching it".

The two definitions go hand-in-hand; you can't ignore either for convenience.

Quoted message said:

The general meaning of body English is roughly synonomous with what is commonly called 'putting
spin' on a ball and only secondarily means attempted telekinesis.

No, as I've outlined above, "using English" means putting a spin on a billiard ball; "body English"
is you twisting and squirming to try to make the ball move the way you want it to, rather than how
you made it to. These are two different concepts.

Tim McNamara:

Quoted message said:

No, it is not about gyrations made by the players. In pool, "English" refers to striking the ball
off center with the cue tip in order to impart some kind of forespin, backspin or sidespin to
affect the trajectory of the ball. Presumably it comes from the skills honed by billiards/snooker
players, who are (were?) predominantly English.

To be more accurate, the term for off-center strikes on the ball is "using English", while "body
English" is used to describe the gyrations/twisting/squirming of the player.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

For example, a bicycle might swerve as if the rider were drunk when in fact it's a mechanical
problem. Or, he or she might actually have been drunk. Only in the second part of your
definition (that is, the less common meaning) is it possible to conclude that body English is
an attempt to influence the movement of an object "without physically touching it".

Huh? That makes no sense. A bicycle rider is always touching the bike (if they aren't, they're not
riding the bike).

This is why "body English" is totally incorrect for describing a cyclist's movements in manipulating
the bike; yet mountain bike cult speakers persist in using the term.

Jose Rizal _@_._ said:

Robert Strickland:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not so sure about this. Several definitions from dictionary.com:

n. 1. Bodily movement in a usually unconscious attempt to influence the movement of a propelled
object, such as a ball.
2. The usually irregular movement or spin of a propelled object as if it were influenced by this
twisting.

n : a motion of the body by a player as if to make an object already propelled go in the
desired direction

It's defined as basically the twisting of one's body in an attempt to influence movement of an
object, without physically touching that object. The term may have come from billiards or pool,
but I think even there it refers to the contortions people make to try to make the ball go the
way they want to, after the shot has been taken and without touching the ball again.

No, it is not about gyrations made by the players. In pool, "English" refers to striking the ball
off center with the cue tip in order to impart some kind of forespin, backspin or sidespin to affect
the trajectory of the ball. Presumably it comes from the skills honed by billiards/snooker players,
who are (were?) predominantly English.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have to disagree Jose. You've interpreted parts 1 and 2 of your first definition of (body)
English in such a way as to claim something they don't. There's nothing in the word 'unconscious'
that means imaginary. Just because you do something unconcsiously doesn't mean that it has no
effect. Moreover, it says usually unconscious.

Read the second definition again, and take note of the phrase "as if". The word "unconscious" is
irrelevant.

Indeed. "As if" indicates that the actions have no real effect. This is different from "unconscious"
actions which may in fact have an effect, if the laws of physics allow it.

Quoted message said:

Look up the etymology of the phrase "body English".

There are two related phrases;

1. "using English", which means putting a spin on a billiard ball to cause it to move in an
irregular path.

2. "body English", which describes the contortions that the billiard player undergoes after making
the shot, as a conscious/unconscious attempt to try to influence the ball's path. You see this
movement with bowlers also, as one other example. After making the shot, the player squirms and
twists, usually accompanied by much grimacing and prayers, as if it will influence the
direction of the ball's path.

Whereas in reality, the bowler could turn around and walk away, thereby having equal effect.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

For example, a bicycle might swerve as if the rider were drunk when in fact it's a mechanical
problem. Or, he or she might actually have been drunk. Only in the second part of your definition
(that is, the less common meaning) is it possible to conclude that body English is an attempt to
influence the movement of an object "without physically touching it".

Huh? That makes no sense. A bicycle rider is always touching the bike (if they aren't, they're not
riding the bike).

Jose Rizal _@_._ said:

So when you refer to the use of "body english" to describe someone on a mountain bike using
his/her body to move the bike, it's utterly incorrect since the term, according to the useful
dictionary.com, refers to body movement which _does__not_ influence the object under motion, but
appears _as_if_ it does. ...

Quoted message said:

True. And if I look at you with a raised eyebrow, this can mean I'm quite incredulous with your
obviously incorrect theory, or merely bemused at the attempt you made at arguing against something
you have an imperfect understanding of. However, this definition of "body language" means that it
is body motion which can potentially affect others, so in a cult language where nothing much makes
sense, which is more descriptive of the body motions of a cyclist?

Give up. You successfully used dictionary.com to discover that "body english" and "body language"
mean two completely different things, and now you want to wriggle around whether the dictionary
definition of "body english" means a wriggling motion after the post is posted, I mean after the
ball is thrown, or before. Language is a medium for communication. If you wish to redefine terms so
that they have a private meaning which is not shared by the people you are speaking to, go ahead.
Maybe if you repeat it often enough you can influence common usage.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It is, however, funny that you are lecturing a Scandinavian in English about the evils of
privileging the word "english," so please continue.

Quoted message said:

I fail to see any humour in it, but perhaps it doesn't take much to amuse you, especially if you
misunderstand terms like you did.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Humor, much less irony, is a resource in short supply and to be valued wherever it is found.

Quoted message said:

Strike 3: you're out, I'm afraid. You really refer to contradiction, rather than irony. Look up
the definitions of both; you know the URL.

It is a unfortunate bastardization to use "irony" to mean simply a paradoxical contradiction (the
latest edition of Fowler's English Usage has quite a few examples, which illustrate this better than
dictionary.com). However, irony is a rather subtle club, and can refer to e.g. a disjunction between
the speaker's meaning and what the audience knows to read into it - that's roughly what dramatic
irony is. There's an entire cottage industry of rhetoric devoted to defining various types of irony,
which is somewhat beside the point here. And the idea that "irony is a resource in short supply" is
itself ironical. But this is no longer a subject of general interest.

Benjamin Weiner:

Quoted message said:

Jose Rizal _@_._ said:

So when you refer to the use of "body english" to describe someone on a mountain bike using
his/her body to move the bike, it's utterly incorrect since the term, according to the useful
dictionary.com, refers to body movement which _does__not_ influence the object under motion, but
appears _as_if_ it does. ...

Quoted message said:

True. And if I look at you with a raised eyebrow, this can mean I'm quite incredulous with your
obviously incorrect theory, or merely bemused at the attempt you made at arguing against
something you have an imperfect understanding of. However, this definition of "body language"
means that it is body motion which can potentially affect others, so in a cult language where
nothing much makes sense, which is more descriptive of the body motions of a cyclist?

Give up.

You should.

Quoted message said:

You successfully used dictionary.com to discover that "body english" and "body language" mean two
completely different things, and now you want to wriggle around whether the dictionary definition
of "body english" means a wriggling motion after the post is posted, I mean after the ball is
thrown, or before.

There is no wriggling around. "Body English" refers to body movement which does not influence
the ball/bike/widget after it has been set in motion. It's there in the definitions, clear for
all to see.

Quoted message said:

Language is a medium for communication.

Water is tasteless.

Quoted message said:

If you wish to redefine terms so that they have a private meaning which is not shared by the
people you are speaking to, go ahead. Maybe if you repeat it often enough you can influence
common usage.

How lame. Your misunderstanding of the very reference you cite is pathetically comical, and your
attempt to cover it up is futile. You're not diverting anyone's attention from the fact that you
failed to read and understand a reference you used for your flawed argument. There's no lasting
shame in that, accept your blunder and move on.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It is, however, funny that you are lecturing a Scandinavian in English about the evils of
privileging the word "english," so please continue.

Quoted message said:

I fail to see any humour in it, but perhaps it doesn't take much to amuse you, especially if you
misunderstand terms like you did.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Humor, much less irony, is a resource in short supply and to be valued wherever it is found.

Quoted message said:

Strike 3: you're out, I'm afraid. You really refer to contradiction, rather than irony. Look up
the definitions of both; you know the URL.

It is a unfortunate bastardization to use "irony" to mean simply a paradoxical contradiction (the
latest edition of Fowler's English Usage has quite a few examples, which illustrate this better
than dictionary.com).

Indeed, yet you persist in the practice. It's not hard to do the right thing, especially in the
light of your apparent possession of the appropriate resources. Then again, you seem to be quite
lazy in reading and understanding references.

Quoted message said:

However, irony is a rather subtle club, and can refer to e.g. a disjunction between the speaker's
meaning and what the audience knows to read into it - that's roughly what dramatic irony is.

I'm not after rough translations, although you seem to be. I prefer precise definitions so that
ducking and weaving, like what you're doing, becomes quite obvious.

Quoted message said:

There's an entire cottage industry of rhetoric devoted to defining various types of irony, which
is somewhat beside the point here.

I'm glad you recognise this.

Quoted message said:

And the idea that "irony is a resource in short supply" is itself ironical.

It's not; it's a pun, and a rather weak one at that.

Quoted message said:

But this is no longer a subject of general interest.

So please practice what you preach, and "give up". You've fooled no one.

[email hidden] (Carl Fogel) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"(Pete Cresswell)" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I weigh 215#. My bike weighs 32#. 32/215 = 15%

Somebody else weighs 160. Their bike weighs 26#. 26/160 = 16%.

Therefore I have the lighter bike.

??

Dear Pete,

If my calculations are correct . . .

26/215 = 12.1%

215 pounds > 160 pounds

. . . then you should take that bike away from the little fellow.

Carl Fogel

1. Heavier rider on a lighter bike makes a difference!

I have been training on a Trek 1200 (22#, triple, 105) and just got a Trek 5500 (17#, double,
Dura Ace). I weigh 190# but am strong for my size. I noticed the difference in bike weight on
hills when I am riding with a group. On the 1200 I would bog down in the middle of the hill and
get dropped. On the 5500 I had the sense that all my power was going into propelling me forward
and I could stay with the group. (Was that just the upgrade in components??) My sense over a
long ride was that the edge was taken off and I could ride longer/harder. Of course on really
steep hills, I do miss the triple, but I don't have to walk.

2. Power to weight ratio

I also find that there is a cross over point in the ratio of power vs. weight. I outweigh my
training partner by about 20# (about 10% of my weight). (His bike weighs 20#.) He kills me on
hills but can not touch me in the wind or on downhills. With the lighter bike, I am just that
5# lighter, and I feel that I crossed a threshold. In general on the 1200, a 1-2% grade really
bogs me down, but is not so noticeable on the 5500. My point is that the 5# difference was
important because for my power to weight ratio the change gave me a really big bang for the
buck. We think that I am stronger than him, and that when our power to weight ratios are equal
that I will weigh more than he does. The 5# goes a long way to that end.

3. Weight on the bike vs on the body

When we were training for Ride the Rockies in Colorado, we rode up some hills in the foothills of
Boulder. We were trying to decide how to carry more cold weather gear on our bike. We tried a
bike rack (1# itself!) with a bike trunk vs a back pack. We had about 10# of extra [censored] to store.
(Don't need to bring this much, but I digress...) We found that having the weight on our back was
much easier than on the bike, although I don't know why.

4. So what of it?

So, I figure my strategy should be to train during the week on the 1200 to gain strength and
ride with the group on the weekends on the 5500 to not be dropped.

Jose Rizal _@_._ said:

Tim McNamara:

Quoted message said:

No, it is not about gyrations made by the players. In pool, "English" refers to striking the ball
off center with the cue tip in order to impart some kind of forespin, backspin or sidespin to
affect the trajectory of the ball. Presumably it comes from the skills honed by billiards/snooker
players, who are (were?) predominantly English.

To be more accurate, the term for off-center strikes on the ball is "using English", while "body
English" is used to describe the gyrations/twisting/squirming of the player.

So stipulated

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> For example, a bicycle might swerve as if the rider were drunk when in fact it's a mechanical
> problem. Or, he or she might actually have been drunk. Only in the second part of your
> definition (that is, the less common meaning) is it possible to conclude that body English is
> an attempt to influence the movement of an object "without physically touching it".

Huh? That makes no sense. A bicycle rider is always touching the bike (if they aren't, they're
not riding the bike).

This is why "body English" is totally incorrect for describing a cyclist's movements in
manipulating the bike; yet mountain bike cult speakers persist in using the term.

Yup. Unfortunately, imprecise language is the norm (and the cause of many arguments).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

No, it is not about gyrations made by the players. In pool, "English" refers to striking the
ball off center with the cue tip in order to impart some kind of forespin, backspin or sidespin
to affect the trajectory of the ball. Presumably it comes from the skills honed by
billiards/snooker players, who are (were?) predominantly English.

To be more accurate, the term for off-center strikes on the ball is "using English", while "body
English" is used to describe the gyrations/twisting/squirming of the player.

So stipulated

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> For example, a bicycle might swerve as if the rider were drunk when in fact it's a mechanical
>> problem. Or, he or she might actually have been drunk. Only in the second part of your
>> definition (that is, the less common meaning) is it possible to conclude that body English is
>> an attempt to influence the movement of an object "without physically touching it".

Huh? That makes no sense. A bicycle rider is always touching the bike (if they aren't, they're
not riding the bike).

This is why "body English" is totally incorrect for describing a cyclist's movements in
manipulating the bike; yet mountain bike cult speakers persist in using the term.

Yup. Unfortunately, imprecise language is the norm (and the cause of many arguments).

You both clearly missed the point. Jose interepreted the "as if" in part 2 of the below definition:

n. 1. Bodily movement in a usually unconscious attempt to influence

Quoted message said:

the movement of a propelled object, such as a ball.
2. The usually irregular movement or spin of a propelled object as if it were influenced by this
twisting.

to mean that something looks "as if" it were caused by something else but actually wasn't. I'm
saying that he's incorrectly inferred the meaning of that "as if". It isn't a description of whether
the cause was or was not the twisting of the body. It's a description of the type of movement and it
leaves the actual fact of the cause open.. My description of the bicycle was only to show that you
can say that something moves "as if" it were caused to by something else without meaning that it in
fact wasn't. In other words, "The ground looks as if it has recently rained." is a description of
the ground but not a claim about whether it has in fact rained. Therefore, Jose's reading of the
above definition, which he takes to mean that there is no causal relationship between the twisting
of the body and the movement of the object, is not correct. It's only one of two possibilities.

Rob Strickland

Mayhew said:

So, I figure my strategy should be to train during the week on the 1200 to gain strength and
ride with the group on the weekends on the 5500 to not be dropped.

No, you have that backwards. Riding a slightly less efficient bike on solo rides will not increase
your output significantly. You'll just slow down a bit. You should ride the less efficient bike on
group rides, where you will have to work harder to keep up. The speed of the group will not change
depending on your bike.

More seriously, though, the heavy bike should not be noticeably slower on a 1-2% incline. I suspect
that something is wrong with the slower bike.

Dave dvt at psu dot edu

Robert Strickland:

Quoted message said:

You both clearly missed the point. Jose interepreted the "as if" in part 2 of the below
definition:

n. 1. Bodily movement in a usually unconscious attempt to influence

Quoted message said:

the movement of a propelled object, such as a ball.
2. The usually irregular movement or spin of a propelled object as if it were influenced by this
twisting.

to mean that something looks "as if" it were caused by something else but actually wasn't.

That's correct, and that's how it is defined.

Quoted message said:

I'm saying that he's incorrectly inferred the meaning of that "as if". It isn't a description of
whether the cause was or was not the twisting of the body. It's a description of the type of
movement and it leaves the actual fact of the cause open..

You misunderstand the definition. If it were as you stated, then the last part of sentence #2 will
have been superfluous and left out. However, implicit in the term "as if" is the fact that it is
_not_ the same (hence the inclusion of "if"😉, otherwise the definition will have been
"...movement... as influenced by this twisting." The reason there are two parts to the definition is
to describe the situation under which the term applies; first, it refers to the game of pool or
billiards; second, it describes the intent of the body movement, and third, how this body movement
is independent of the movement of the object.

A good example of the correct usage of "as if" can be observed in the movie "Clueless".

Quoted message said:

My description of the bicycle was only to show that you can say that something moves "as if" it
were caused to by something else without meaning that it in fact wasn't. In other words, "The
ground looks as if it has recently rained." is a description of the ground but not a claim about
whether it has in fact rained.

What you miss is that this is in fact expressing the opposite; when you say that something is "as
if", you are referring to the attribution in the negative, that is, you are saying that you believe
otherwise.

Quoted message said:

Therefore, Jose's reading of the above definition, which he takes to mean that there is no causal
relationship between the twisting of the body and the movement of the object, is not correct. It's
only one of two possibilities.

No, "as if" is a negative reference, not a neutral one.

Go look up the etymology of the term, and you'll get a better version of the meaning:
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