Heartrate vs. Breathing? Cardio conditioning question.

DaKitty said:

I noticed today, after 4x50 sprints, I was gasping for air, thinking it was because of my
heartrate... Checked the heartrate, and it was 33 in 15 sec.132/min.

Now I'm puzzled, I thought that I would be breathing that heavily at much higher heartrate, like
160 or 170 or 180???

I don't think the two are that tightly coupled. When you sprint you are exceeding your V02 max. I
think this will explain:

teamoregon.comvo2max.htmlOpen ↗

martin

--
Wesley Clark for President www.AmericansForClark.com

Martin Smith

It sounds as if you went into 'Oxygen Debt'. This is where you were gasping for air as your body
needed more oxygen to help to clear out Lactic acid. You quickly went into swimming Anaerobically
as you were swimming fast. This happens easily in backstroke as you need a high stroke rate to
move fast.

The set you described would easily generate more lactic acid than your body could clear with normal
respiration. That triggers rapid, deep breathing as your body needs that oxygen.

Your heart rate was not too high, so your conditioning is pretty good. I am surprised that this is
your first experience of 'oxygen debt'. If you train to swim fast then you will often go into
'oxygen debt'. Just wait till you get huge amounts of lactic acid in your system, try a fast fly or
back set. The feeling is very uncomfortable, like your skin crawling, but it is inside your muscles.

I find when i swim backstroke sprints that i go anaerobic almost straight away.

"Gareth Eckley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It sounds as if you went into 'Oxygen Debt'. This is where you were gasping for air as your body
needed more oxygen to help to clear out Lactic acid. You quickly went into swimming Anaerobically
as you were swimming fast.

Heh...relatively speaking...

Quoted message said:

This happens easily in backstroke as you need a high stroke rate to move fast.

And I kick nuch harder on the backstroke.

Quoted message said:

The set you described would easily generate more lactic acid than your body could clear with
normal respiration. That triggers rapid, deep breathing as your body needs that oxygen.

Your heart rate was not too high, so your conditioning is pretty good. I am surprised that this is
your first experience of 'oxygen debt'. If

Oh, it's not the first, it happens all the time. I was just surprized that it was happening at that
heart rate. When I took my heart rate, I expected it to be around 160 or 170, based on the 'heavy
breathing'. Since i started training, about 12 weeks ago, this is the first time I took the heart
rate. My sprints aren't *really* sprints, in the true sense of the word. Relatively speaking, for
me, they are sprints.

I'll have to see how that changes over time. As for being in a good shape... my resting pulse is 78
(well, it is right now... 2 hours after an hour long swim practice.. being that I still feel little
bit 'warm' maybe its' not the best time to take my resting pulse. I don't know.) Last time I was in
a really good shape, some 8 or so years ago, my resting pulse would be around 52.

Quoted message said:

you train to swim fast then you will often go into 'oxygen debt'. Just wait till you get huge
amounts of lactic acid in your system, try a fast fly or back set. The feeling is very
uncomfortable, like your skin crawling, but it is inside your muscles.

I find when i swim backstroke sprints that i go anaerobic almost straight away.

I go anaerobic as soon as I start moving my legs fast. I have pretty big leg muscles (hereditary). I
have been berating heavier last week or two. I think that might be because there is a somewhat
noticeable increase in the muscle mass in my upper body too, since I started. So, maybe I finally
have enough muscle in my upper body to get me breathing heavy. I did notice increase in strength.

"M.W. Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

DaKitty said:

I noticed today, after 4x50 sprints, I was gasping for air, thinking it

was

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

because of my heartrate... Checked the heartrate, and it was 33 in 15 sec.132/min.

Now I'm puzzled, I thought that I would be breathing that heavily at

much

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

higher heartrate, like 160 or 170 or 180???

I don't think the two are that tightly coupled. When you sprint you are exceeding your V02 max. I
think this will explain:

teamoregon.comvo2max.htmlOpen ↗

martin

hmmm... Thanks for the article.

It kind of left me more confused. I have no idea what my VO max could be, and no way to measure it.
They mention something about conditioning improving how much work you can do before you exceed the
VOmax... The rest is way too technical for me, which made it kind of frustrating to read, especially
not having a faintest idea what my VOmax might be, and it seems to be addressing high end
performance, which is not me.

I needed more of a plain English explanation about how heart rate and breathing relate to each other
in various stages of conditioning.

I asked our coach about it, this morning. He said that with more conditioning, it will improve,
where I will be able to reach a higher heartrate without gasping for air. He agreed that it should
be happening close to the 80% range, but considering that I still have a long way to go to get in a
good shape, he said it's not unusual.

"DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<oDFbb.1783$gi2.958@fed1read01>...

Quoted message said:

I needed more of a plain English explanation about how heart rate and breathing relate to each
other in various stages of conditioning.

I'm no expert but try this for size...

The point at which you go from breathing quite heavily to gasping for breath is your Ventilatory
Threshold (VT). Your VT is usually around the same level of exertion as your Lactate Threshold (LT),
the point where you start accumulating lactic acid.

Unfit people are less able to metabolize lactic acid so their LT and hence their VT comes at a lower
percentage of their max heart rate. As they get fitter they become more effective at processing
lactic acid so they can work harder before they reach their LT/VT. What this means to you is that as
you get fitter you will be able to reach a higher heart rate before you start gasping for air. Some
very fit (and gifted) athletes have reached a point where their heart rate at LT is around 95% of
their max heart rate.

Another thing to note is that heart rates are very activity specific and so you cannot take expected
heart rates from things like running or cycling and apply them to swimming. I think I read somewhere
that max HRs for swimming are on average 13 bpm less than cycling so I'd expect there to be a
similar reduction in HR at LT/VT.

Hope that helps,

AD.

"adrian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<oDFbb.1783$gi2.958@fed1read01>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I needed more of a plain English explanation about how heart rate and breathing relate to each
other in various stages of conditioning.

I'm no expert but try this for size...

The point at which you go from breathing quite heavily to gasping for breath is your Ventilatory
Threshold (VT). Your VT is usually around the same level of exertion as your Lactate Threshold
(LT), the point where you start accumulating lactic acid.

Okay

Quoted message said:

Unfit people are less able to metabolize lactic acid so their LT and hence their VT comes at a
lower percentage of their max heart rate. As they get fitter they become more effective at
processing lactic acid so they can work harder before they reach their LT/VT.

Ah! that makes sense. I think that is what is happening right now too.

Quoted message said:

What this means to you is that as you get fitter you will be able to reach a higher heart rate
before you start gasping for air. Some very fit (and gifted) athletes have reached a point where
their heart rate at LT is around 95% of their max heart rate.

I'm hoping this will improve in my case. I'll give myself a month, and check the progress. I
actively train (6-7 days a week), for at least an hour in the morning, with a master's team. So, I
should see a little bit of progress within a month, I hope. I'm staring to think maybe I should add
a dryland cardio workout in the afternioons. But... I don't know where my 'overtraining' treshold
is. Maybe I'll start with 2-3 cardio workouts a week, see how it goes. I just got to a point where I
cah do 5 consecutive days of solid workouts before I need to take a recovery (easy) day.

Quoted message said:

Another thing to note is that heart rates are very activity specific and so you cannot take
expected heart rates from things like running or cycling and apply them to swimming.

Interesting. Well, I'm not a biker or a runner, so I don't have a heartrate to compare to,
luckily... or I'd confuse myself even more. 😉

Quoted message said:

I think I read somewhere that max HRs for swimming are on average 13 bpm less than cycling so I'd
expect there to be a similar reduction in HR at LT/VT.

Hm! Okay 🙂 Our coach has a heartrate chart posted on out website (I just looked it up). It says
that for my age group 70% is 133, 80% is 152, 90% is 171 and max is 190

Quoted message said:

Hope that helps,

Yes, it did. Thank you very much 🙂 As I get in a better shape and more advanced, I'll probably
get more interested in the finer points of it, but for now, this is the perfect explanation.
Thank you 🙂 !

DaKitty said:

"adrian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<oDFbb.1783$gi2.958@fed1read01>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I needed more of a plain English explanation about how heart rate and breathing relate to each
other in various stages of conditioning.

I'm no expert but try this for size...

The point at which you go from breathing quite heavily to gasping for breath is your Ventilatory
Threshold (VT). Your VT is usually around the same level of exertion as your Lactate Threshold
(LT), the point where you start accumulating lactic acid.

Okay

Quoted message said:

Unfit people are less able to metabolize lactic acid so their LT and hence their VT comes at a
lower percentage of their max heart rate. As they get fitter they become more effective at
processing lactic acid so they can work harder before they reach their LT/VT.

Ah! that makes sense. I think that is what is happening right now too.

Quoted message said:

What this means to you is that as you get fitter you will be able to reach a higher heart rate
before you start gasping for air. Some very fit (and gifted) athletes have reached a point where
their heart rate at LT is around 95% of their max heart rate.

I'm hoping this will improve in my case. I'll give myself a month, and check the progress. I
actively train (6-7 days a week), for at least an hour in the morning, with a master's team. So, I
should see a little bit of progress within a month, I hope. I'm staring to think maybe I should add
a dryland cardio workout in the afternioons. But... I don't know where my 'overtraining' treshold
is. Maybe I'll start with 2-3 cardio workouts a week, see how it goes. I just got to a point where
I cah do 5 consecutive days of solid workouts before I need to take a recovery (easy) day.

Quoted message said:

Another thing to note is that heart rates are very activity specific and so you cannot take
expected heart rates from things like running or cycling and apply them to swimming.

Interesting. Well, I'm not a biker or a runner, so I don't have a heartrate to compare to,
luckily... or I'd confuse myself even more. 😉

Quoted message said:

I think I read somewhere that max HRs for swimming are on average 13 bpm less than cycling so I'd
expect there to be a similar reduction in HR at LT/VT.

Hm! Okay 🙂 Our coach has a heartrate chart posted on out website (I just looked it up). It says
that for my age group 70% is 133, 80% is 152, 90% is 171 and max is 190

Be very leery of any HR charts. These charts are set up for the AVERAGE person. Your true
zones may be significantly differenet than those posted on a chart. To be more accurate a LT
test is a much better method.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hope that helps,

Yes, it did. Thank you very much 🙂 As I get in a better shape and more advanced, I'll probably
get more interested in the finer points of it, but for now, this is the perfect explanation.
Thank you 🙂 !

<MJuric> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

DaKitty said:

"adrian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<oDFbb.1783$gi2.958@fed1read01>...

Quoted message said:

> I needed more of a plain English explanation about how heart rate and breathing relate to
> each other in various stages of conditioning.
>

I'm no expert but try this for size...

The point at which you go from breathing quite heavily to gasping for breath is your
Ventilatory Threshold (VT). Your VT is usually around the same level of exertion as your
Lactate Threshold (LT), the point where you start accumulating lactic acid.

Okay

Quoted message said:

Unfit people are less able to metabolize lactic acid so their LT and hence their VT comes at a
lower percentage of their max heart rate. As they get fitter they become more effective at
processing lactic acid so they can work harder before they reach their LT/VT.

Ah! that makes sense. I think that is what is happening right now too.

Quoted message said:

What this means to you is that as you get fitter you will be able to reach a higher heart rate
before you start gasping for air. Some very fit (and gifted) athletes have reached a point
where their heart rate at LT is around 95% of their max heart rate.

I'm hoping this will improve in my case. I'll give myself a month, and

check

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the progress. I actively train (6-7 days a week), for at least an hour in the morning, with a
master's team. So, I should see a little bit of progress within a month, I hope. I'm staring to
think maybe I should add a dryland cardio workout in the afternioons. But... I don't know where
my 'overtraining' treshold is.

Maybe

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'll start with 2-3 cardio workouts a week, see how it goes. I just got to a point where I cah do
5 consecutive days of solid workouts before I need to take a recovery (easy) day.

Quoted message said:

Another thing to note is that heart rates are very activity specific and so you cannot take
expected heart rates from things like running or cycling and apply them to swimming.

Interesting. Well, I'm not a biker or a runner, so I don't have a heartrate to compare to,
luckily... or I'd confuse myself even more. 😉

Quoted message said:

I think I read somewhere that max HRs for swimming are on average 13 bpm less than cycling so
I'd expect there to be a similar reduction in HR at LT/VT.

Hm! Okay 🙂 Our coach has a heartrate chart posted on out website (I just looked it

up).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It says that for my age group 70% is 133, 80% is 152, 90% is 171 and max

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

190

Be very leery of any HR charts. These charts are set up for the AVERAGE person. Your true zones
may be significantly differenet than those posted on a chart. To be more accurate a LT test is a
much better method.

~Matt

What's an LT test? I am a very average person. When it comes to Cardio conditioning, probably still
below average.

"DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<VqLbb.2181$gi2.1320@fed1read01>...

Quoted message said:

I'm hoping this will improve in my case. I'll give myself a month, and check the progress.

A month really is a small length of time when we're talking about physiological adaptations so, by
all means reflect on your monthly progress but don't get disappointed if sometimes it's hard to see
any. Also, as you get fitter the improvements will get smaller and harder to achieve.

Quoted message said:

I actively train (6-7 days a week), for at least an hour in the morning, with a master's team. So,
I should see a little bit of progress within a month, I hope. I'm staring to think maybe I should
add a dryland cardio workout in the afternioons. But... I don't know where my 'overtraining'
treshold is. Maybe I'll start with 2-3 cardio workouts a week, see how it goes.

If you're already swimming for 7-8 hrs a week I'd have thought that was sufficient endurance work.
If you want to do something extra then maybe adding something like Pilates (my fave!) or yoga to
help maintain/increase flexibility and reduce the risk of injury.

Quoted message said:

Our coach has a heartrate chart posted on out website (I just looked it up). It says that for my
age group 70% is 133, 80% is 152, 90% is 171 and max is 190

As Matt said, those charts are so far out they're really not worth bothering with. If you want to
learn more, try one of Sally Edwards' books or Lactate Threshold Training by Peter Janssen. I like
Janssen's book the best even though it's a bit dry and probably suffers from a bad translation.

Happy Swimming!

AD.

"adrian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<VqLbb.2181$gi2.1320@fed1read01>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm hoping this will improve in my case. I'll give myself a month, and

check

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the progress.

A month really is a small length of time when we're talking about physiological adaptations so, by
all means reflect on your monthly progress but don't get disappointed if sometimes it's hard to
see any. Also, as you get fitter the improvements will get smaller and harder to achieve.

True! Heh, I get impatient!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I actively train (6-7 days a week), for at least an hour in the morning, with a master's team.
So, I should see a little bit of progress within a month, I hope. I'm staring to think maybe I
should add a dryland cardio workout in the afternioons. But... I don't know where my
'overtraining' treshold is.

Maybe

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'll start with 2-3 cardio workouts a week, see how it goes.

If you're already swimming for 7-8 hrs a week I'd have thought that was sufficient endurance work.
If you want to do something extra then maybe adding something like Pilates (my fave!) or yoga to
help maintain/increase flexibility and reduce the risk of injury.

Yea, I've been doing little bit of pilates, sporadically. Maybe I'll up that some.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Our coach has a heartrate chart posted on out website (I just looked it

up).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It says that for my age group 70% is 133, 80% is 152, 90% is 171 and max

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

190

As Matt said, those charts are so far out they're really not worth bothering with. If you want to
learn more, try one of Sally Edwards' books or Lactate Threshold Training by Peter Janssen. I like
Janssen's book the best even though it's a bit dry and probably suffers from a bad translation.

Happy Swimming!

AD.

Thanks 🙂

DaKitty said:

<MJuric> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

DaKitty said:

"adrian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
> "DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<oDFbb.1783$gi2.958@fed1read01>...
> > I needed more of a plain English explanation about how heart rate and breathing relate to
> > each other in various stages of conditioning.
> >
>
> I'm no expert but try this for size...
>
> The point at which you go from breathing quite heavily to gasping for breath is your
> Ventilatory Threshold (VT). Your VT is usually around the same level of exertion as your
> Lactate Threshold (LT), the point where you start accumulating lactic acid.

Okay

> Unfit people are less able to metabolize lactic acid so their LT and hence their VT comes at a
> lower percentage of their max heart rate. As they get fitter they become more effective at
> processing lactic acid so they can work harder before they reach their LT/VT.

Ah! that makes sense. I think that is what is happening right now too.

> What this means to you is that as you get fitter you will be able to reach a higher heart rate
> before you start gasping for air. Some very fit (and gifted) athletes have reached a point
> where their heart rate at LT is around 95% of their max heart rate.

I'm hoping this will improve in my case. I'll give myself a month, and

check

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the progress. I actively train (6-7 days a week), for at least an hour in the morning, with a
master's team. So, I should see a little bit of progress within a month, I hope. I'm staring to
think maybe I should add a dryland cardio workout in the afternioons. But... I don't know where
my 'overtraining' treshold is.

Maybe

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'll start with 2-3 cardio workouts a week, see how it goes. I just got to a point where I cah
do 5 consecutive days of solid workouts before I need to take a recovery (easy) day.

> Another thing to note is that heart rates are very activity specific and so you cannot take
> expected heart rates from things like running or cycling and apply them to swimming.

Interesting. Well, I'm not a biker or a runner, so I don't have a heartrate to compare to,
luckily... or I'd confuse myself even more. 😉

> I think I read somewhere that max HRs for swimming are on average 13 bpm less than cycling so
> I'd expect there to be a similar reduction in HR at LT/VT.

Hm! Okay 🙂 Our coach has a heartrate chart posted on out website (I just looked it

up).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It says that for my age group 70% is 133, 80% is 152, 90% is 171 and max

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

190

Be very leery of any HR charts. These charts are set up for the AVERAGE person. Your true zones
may be significantly differenet than those posted on a chart. To be more accurate a LT test is a
much better method.

~Matt

What's an LT test?

Lactate Threshold. Or Lactate Turning point. Lactate builds in the muscles depending on the
intensity of the workout. At some point, determined by testing, the buildup of lactate takes
a rather severe upswing, LT. Training is pretty much about trying to move this point to a
later and later point. This allows you to do more work before really accumulating ALOT of
Lactate, which interfers with muscle function in large quantities and lowers performance.
Eventually causing you to stop.

Quoted message said:

I am a very average person.

The average I mentioned here deals more with the average Max HR not average conditioning. It
is quite possible to be very average Performance wise and have a very unusual Max HR.
Although conditioning will affect your zones the charts you refer don't normally reflect
this. These charts generally lump all people together. The problem with this is your Max HR
and LT may be significantly off from Average. Thus training in the "recommended" zones may
be entirely wrong for your your current conditioning and personal make up. I would suspect
that the chart you looked at is based on a derivitave, for swimming, of the the 220-AGE
formula for MaxHR. For an example my Max HR woudl be 220-34 or 186. I have on several
occasions topped out over 200 I believe max to this point was 203. or 17 BPM off. This
problem is compounded by the fact that your Max HR changes very little if at all with
improved conditioning. Your LT (Lactate Threshold) however does. This is truly what you are
shooting for not a higher Max HR but a higher LT. So as your conditioning changes so does
your "workout Zones" So if you were to base your HR zones on a "Chart" you would/will/can
run into several issues vs doing an actual test.

1) Your inherant HR is not average
2) your conditioning does not match the zones
3) even if you are lucky enough to start out at teh right zones, matching the chart, more than
likely as your conditioning improves you will "stray" away from these "chart" zones.

My favorite book on the subject. Is Joe Friels "Triathlon Training Bible" It contains the
procedures for determining you LT in Running, Biking and Swimming. He also recommends
retesting every 4-6 weeks. Not only to see if your training is working but to see if enough
improvement has been made to adjust your zones.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

When it comes to Cardio conditioning, probably still below average.

DaKitty said:

"adrian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<VqLbb.2181$gi2.1320@fed1read01>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm hoping this will improve in my case. I'll give myself a month, and

check

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the progress.

A month really is a small length of time when we're talking about physiological adaptations so, by
all means reflect on your monthly progress but don't get disappointed if sometimes it's hard to
see any. Also, as you get fitter the improvements will get smaller and harder to achieve.

True! Heh, I get impatient!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I actively train (6-7 days a week), for at least an hour in the morning, with a master's team.
So, I should see a little bit of progress within a month, I hope. I'm staring to think maybe I
should add a dryland cardio workout in the afternioons. But... I don't know where my
'overtraining' treshold is.

Maybe

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'll start with 2-3 cardio workouts a week, see how it goes.

If you're already swimming for 7-8 hrs a week I'd have thought that was sufficient endurance work.
If you want to do something extra then maybe adding something like Pilates (my fave!) or yoga to
help maintain/increase flexibility and reduce the risk of injury.

Yea, I've been doing little bit of pilates, sporadically. Maybe I'll up that some.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Our coach has a heartrate chart posted on out website (I just looked it

up).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It says that for my age group 70% is 133, 80% is 152, 90% is 171 and max

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

190

As Matt said, those charts are so far out they're really not worth bothering with. If you want to
learn more, try one of Sally Edwards' books or Lactate Threshold Training by Peter Janssen. I like
Janssen's book the best even though it's a bit dry and probably suffers from a bad translation.

Happy Swimming!

AD.

Thanks 🙂

Take your heartrate first thing in the morning, before you get out of bed. This should go down as
your heart gets stronger and your overall fitness increases.

<MJuric> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

DaKitty said:

<MJuric> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:18:15 -0700, "DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote:

>
>"adrian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>"]news:[email hidden]...
>> "DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>news:<oDFbb.1783$gi2.958@fed1read01>...
>> > I needed more of a plain English explanation about how heart rate

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> > breathing relate to each other in various stages of conditioning.
>> >
>>
>> I'm no expert but try this for size...
>>
>> The point at which you go from breathing quite heavily to gasping

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> breath is your Ventilatory Threshold (VT). Your VT is usually around the same level of
>> exertion as your Lactate Threshold (LT), the point where you start accumulating lactic acid.
>
>Okay
>
>> Unfit people are less able to metabolize lactic acid so their LT and hence their VT comes at
>> a lower percentage of their max heart rate.

As

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> they get fitter they become more effective at processing lactic acid so they can work harder
>> before they reach their LT/VT.
>
>Ah! that makes sense. I think that is what is happening right now too.
>
>> What this means to you is that as you get fitter you will be able to reach a higher heart
>> rate before you start gasping for air. Some very fit (and gifted) athletes have reached a
>> point where their heart rate at LT

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> around 95% of their max heart rate.
>
>I'm hoping this will improve in my case. I'll give myself a month, and

check

Quoted message said:

>the progress. I actively train (6-7 days a week), for at least an hour in the

morning,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>with a master's team. So, I should see a little bit of progress within

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>month, I hope. I'm staring to think maybe I should add a dryland cardio workout in

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>afternioons. But... I don't know where my 'overtraining' treshold is.

Maybe

Quoted message said:

>I'll start with 2-3 cardio workouts a week, see how it goes. I just got to a point where I cah
>do 5 consecutive days of solid

workouts

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>before I need to take a recovery (easy) day.
>
>> Another thing to note is that heart rates are very activity specific and so you cannot take
>> expected heart rates from things like running or cycling and apply them to swimming.
>
>Interesting. Well, I'm not a biker or a runner, so I don't have a heartrate to

compare

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>to, luckily... or I'd confuse myself even more. 😉
>
>> I think I read somewhere that max HRs for swimming are on average 13 bpm less than cycling
>> so I'd expect there to be a similar reduction in HR at LT/VT.
>
>Hm! Okay 🙂 Our coach has a heartrate chart posted on out website (I just looked

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

up).

Quoted message said:

>It says that for my age group 70% is 133, 80% is 152, 90% is 171 and

max

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

is

Quoted message said:

>190

Be very leery of any HR charts. These charts are set up for the AVERAGE person. Your true zones
may be significantly differenet than those posted on a chart. To be more accurate a LT test is
a much better method.

~Matt

What's an LT test?

Lactate Threshold. Or Lactate Turning point. Lactate builds in the muscles depending on the
intensity of the workout. At some point, determined by testing, the buildup of lactate takes a
rather severe upswing, LT. Training is pretty much about trying to move this point to a later and
later point. This allows you to do more work before really accumulating ALOT of Lactate, which
interfers with muscle function in large quantities and lowers performance. Eventually causing you
to stop.

Quoted message said:

I am a very average person.

The average I mentioned here deals more with the average Max HR not average conditioning. It is
quite possible to be very average Performance wise and have a very unusual Max HR. Although
conditioning will affect your zones the charts you refer don't normally reflect this. These charts
generally lump all people together. The problem with this is your Max HR and LT may be
significantly off from Average. Thus training in the "recommended" zones may be entirely wrong for
your your current conditioning and personal make up. I would suspect that the chart you looked at
is based on a derivitave, for swimming, of the the 220-AGE formula for MaxHR. For an example my
Max HR woudl be 220-34 or 186. I have on several occasions topped out over 200 I believe max to
this point was 203. or 17 BPM off. This problem is compounded by the fact that your Max HR changes
very little if at all with improved conditioning. Your LT (Lactate Threshold) however does. This
is truly what you are shooting for not a higher Max HR but a higher LT. So as your conditioning
changes so does your "workout Zones" So if you were to base your HR zones on a "Chart" you
would/will/can run into several issues vs doing an actual test.

1) Your inherant HR is not average
2) your conditioning does not match the zones
3) even if you are lucky enough to start out at teh right zones, matching the chart, more than
likely as your conditioning improves you will "stray" away from these "chart" zones.

My favorite book on the subject. Is Joe Friels "Triathlon Training Bible" It contains the
procedures for determining you LT in Running, Biking and Swimming. He also recommends retesting
every 4-6 weeks. Not only to see if your training is working but to see if enough improvement has
been made to adjust your zones.

~Matt

thanks for that info, it's very interesting.

One more question, how is an LT done?

DaKitty said:

<MJuric> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

DaKitty said:

<MJuric> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
> On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:18:15 -0700, "DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
> >
> >"adrian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> >"]news:[email hidden]...
> >> "DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> >news:<oDFbb.1783$gi2.958@fed1read01>...
> >> > I needed more of a plain English explanation about how heart rate

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >> > breathing relate to each other in various stages of conditioning.
> >> >
> >>
> >> I'm no expert but try this for size...
> >>
> >> The point at which you go from breathing quite heavily to gasping

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >> breath is your Ventilatory Threshold (VT). Your VT is usually around the same level of
> >> exertion as your Lactate Threshold (LT), the point where you start accumulating lactic
> >> acid.
> >
> >Okay
> >
> >> Unfit people are less able to metabolize lactic acid so their LT and hence their VT comes
> >> at a lower percentage of their max heart rate.

As

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >> they get fitter they become more effective at processing lactic acid so they can work
> >> harder before they reach their LT/VT.
> >
> >Ah! that makes sense. I think that is what is happening right now too.
> >
> >> What this means to you is that as you get fitter you will be able to reach a higher heart
> >> rate before you start gasping for air. Some very fit (and gifted) athletes have reached a
> >> point where their heart rate at LT

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >> around 95% of their max heart rate.
> >
> >I'm hoping this will improve in my case. I'll give myself a month, and
check
> >the progress. I actively train (6-7 days a week), for at least an hour in the

morning,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >with a master's team. So, I should see a little bit of progress within

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >month, I hope. I'm staring to think maybe I should add a dryland cardio workout in

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >afternioons. But... I don't know where my 'overtraining' treshold is.
Maybe
> >I'll start with 2-3 cardio workouts a week, see how it goes. I just got to a point where I
> >cah do 5 consecutive days of solid

workouts

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >before I need to take a recovery (easy) day.
> >
> >> Another thing to note is that heart rates are very activity specific and so you cannot take
> >> expected heart rates from things like running or cycling and apply them to swimming.
> >
> >Interesting. Well, I'm not a biker or a runner, so I don't have a heartrate to

compare

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >to, luckily... or I'd confuse myself even more. 😉
> >
> >> I think I read somewhere that max HRs for swimming are on average 13 bpm less than cycling
> >> so I'd expect there to be a similar reduction in HR at LT/VT.
> >
> >Hm! Okay 🙂 Our coach has a heartrate chart posted on out website (I just looked

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

up).
> >It says that for my age group 70% is 133, 80% is 152, 90% is 171 and

max

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

is
> >190
>
> Be very leery of any HR charts. These charts are set up for the AVERAGE person. Your true
> zones may be significantly differenet than those posted on a chart. To be more accurate a LT
> test is a much better method.
>
> ~Matt

What's an LT test?

Lactate Threshold. Or Lactate Turning point. Lactate builds in the muscles depending on the
intensity of the workout. At some point, determined by testing, the buildup of lactate takes a
rather severe upswing, LT. Training is pretty much about trying to move this point to a later and
later point. This allows you to do more work before really accumulating ALOT of Lactate, which
interfers with muscle function in large quantities and lowers performance. Eventually causing you
to stop.

Quoted message said:

I am a very average person.

The average I mentioned here deals more with the average Max HR not average conditioning. It is
quite possible to be very average Performance wise and have a very unusual Max HR. Although
conditioning will affect your zones the charts you refer don't normally reflect this. These
charts generally lump all people together. The problem with this is your Max HR and LT may be
significantly off from Average. Thus training in the "recommended" zones may be entirely wrong
for your your current conditioning and personal make up. I would suspect that the chart you
looked at is based on a derivitave, for swimming, of the the 220-AGE formula for MaxHR. For an
example my Max HR woudl be 220-34 or 186. I have on several occasions topped out over 200 I
believe max to this point was 203. or 17 BPM off. This problem is compounded by the fact that
your Max HR changes very little if at all with improved conditioning. Your LT (Lactate Threshold)
however does. This is truly what you are shooting for not a higher Max HR but a higher LT. So as
your conditioning changes so does your "workout Zones" So if you were to base your HR zones on a
"Chart" you would/will/can run into several issues vs doing an actual test.

1) Your inherant HR is not average
2) your conditioning does not match the zones
3) even if you are lucky enough to start out at teh right zones, matching the chart, more than
likely as your conditioning improves you will "stray" away from these "chart" zones.

My favorite book on the subject. Is Joe Friels "Triathlon Training Bible" It contains the
procedures for determining you LT in Running, Biking and Swimming. He also recommends retesting
every 4-6 weeks. Not only to see if your training is working but to see if enough improvement has
been made to adjust your zones.

~Matt

thanks for that info, it's very interesting.

One more question, how is an LT done?

An LT test? An LT test can be done several ways. The one recommend by Friel for swimming
consist of a warm up, and several 100yd repeats with 10 secs rest between. Each succesive
repeat is done a bit harder than the previous. This is continued until the subject/ swimmer
can go no faster or fails to finish the repeat. After each repeat your HR, percieved effort,
pace & VT(Ventaltion threshold, point at were you start breathing heavily) are recorded.
Using these three indicators(pace is only recorded for future use and comparison reasons)
you can get a good indication of were your LT is. Usually within a repeat or two of VT, at a
PE of 15-17 and normally not more than 5-6 repeats from the point of quiting. If two or more
of these cross correlate in other words your PE was 16 on the repeat after VT then your LT
is probably around the HR that is shown for that repeat. From there you can find out all of
your workout zones based on LT adn listed in Friels book. (I'm sure available somewhere else
too) I'm sure this is probably confusion shown as verbage and is why I highly recommend the
book. If nothing else get it from the library and copy the pertanant pages. There are other
methods of determining LT but they are similar to teh above. You can also determine LT
medically via blood tests. I'm assuming a repeat, draw blood, repeat draw blood. I did see a
new gadget the other day that operated much the same way a blood sugar thingy does for
diabetics but measures Lactate instead. This woudl be the best way as a direct reading could
obtained. Unfortunately I'b bet the little gadget is expensive, haven't seen a price or even
if it's available for sale yet.

~Matt

"Madelaine" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

DaKitty said:

"adrian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<VqLbb.2181$gi2.1320@fed1read01>...

Quoted message said:

>I'm hoping this will improve in my case. I'll give myself a month, and

check

Quoted message said:

>the progress.

A month really is a small length of time when we're talking about physiological adaptations so,
by all means reflect on your monthly progress but don't get disappointed if sometimes it's hard
to see any. Also, as you get fitter the improvements will get smaller and harder to achieve.

True! Heh, I get impatient!

Quoted message said:

>I actively train (6-7 days a week), for at least an hour in the

morning,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>with a master's team. So, I should see a little bit of progress within

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>month, I hope. I'm staring to think maybe I should add a dryland cardio workout in the
>afternioons. But... I don't know where my 'overtraining' treshold is.

Maybe

Quoted message said:

>I'll start with 2-3 cardio workouts a week, see how it goes.

If you're already swimming for 7-8 hrs a week I'd have thought that was sufficient endurance
work. If you want to do something extra then maybe adding something like Pilates (my fave!) or
yoga to help maintain/increase flexibility and reduce the risk of injury.

Yea, I've been doing little bit of pilates, sporadically. Maybe I'll up that some.

Quoted message said:

>Our coach has a heartrate chart posted on out website (I just looked it

up).

Quoted message said:

>It says that for my age group 70% is 133, 80% is 152, 90% is 171 and

max

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

is

Quoted message said:

>190

As Matt said, those charts are so far out they're really not worth bothering with. If you want
to learn more, try one of Sally Edwards' books or Lactate Threshold Training by Peter Janssen. I
like Janssen's book the best even though it's a bit dry and probably suffers from a bad
translation.

Happy Swimming!

AD.

Thanks 🙂

Take your heartrate first thing in the morning, before you get out of bed. This should go down as
your heart gets stronger and your overall fitness increases.

My resting heartrate is around 70 right now. After I brush my teeth, it goes up to 110 (LOL) 7-8
years ago, when I was in a really good shape, my resting heart rate was around 50. Back then I
wasn't in a habit of checking my heartrate, so I don't know what it might have been after exertion.

<MJuric> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:08:08 -0700, "DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

~Matt

thanks for that info, it's very interesting.

One more question, how is an LT done?

An LT test? An LT test can be done several ways. The one recommend by Friel for swimming consist
of a warm up, and several 100yd repeats with 10 secs rest between.

At what pace?

Quoted message said:

Each succesive repeat is done a bit harder than the previous. This is continued until the subject/
swimmer can go no faster or fails to finish the repeat.

Make that about 3 or 4x100 (increasing) for me to get to the point of out of breath, and at that
point my herartrate is around 135

Quoted message said:

After each repeat your HR, percieved effort, pace & VT(Ventaltion threshold, point at were you
start breathing heavily) are recorded. Using these three indicators(pace is only recorded for
future use and comparison reasons) you can get a good indication of were your LT is. Usually
within a repeat or two of VT, at a PE of 15-17 and normally not more than 5-6 repeats from the
point of quiting. If two or more of these cross correlate in other words your PE

PE?

Quoted message said:

was 16 on the repeat after VT then your LT is probably around the HR that is shown for that
repeat. From there you can find out all of your workout zones based on LT adn listed in Friels
book. (I'm sure available somewhere else too) I'm sure this is probably confusion shown as verbage
and is why I highly recommend the book. If nothing else get it from the library and copy the
pertanant pages. There are other methods of determining LT but they are similar to teh above. You
can also determine LT medically via blood tests. I'm assuming a repeat, draw blood, repeat draw
blood. I did see a new gadget the other day that operated much the same way a blood sugar thingy
does for diabetics but measures Lactate instead. This woudl be the best way as a direct reading
could obtained. Unfortunately I'b bet the little gadget is expensive, haven't seen a price or even
if it's available for sale yet.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

DaKitty said:

<MJuric> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:08:08 -0700, "DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> ~Matt

thanks for that info, it's very interesting.

One more question, how is an LT done?

An LT test? An LT test can be done several ways. The one recommend by Friel for swimming consist
of a warm up, and several 100yd repeats with 10 secs rest between.

At what pace?

Quoted message said:

Each succesive repeat is done a bit harder than the previous. This is continued until the
subject/ swimmer can go no faster or fails to finish the repeat.

Make that about 3 or 4x100 (increasing) for me to get to the point of out of breath, and at that
point my herartrate is around 135

Try starting out MUCH easier and building up slowly. The first repeat should be akin to a easy walk.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

After each repeat your HR, percieved effort, pace & VT(Ventaltion threshold, point at were you
start breathing heavily) are recorded. Using these three indicators(pace is only recorded for
future use and comparison reasons) you can get a good indication of were your LT is. Usually
within a repeat or two of VT, at a PE of 15-17 and normally not more than 5-6 repeats from the
point of quiting. If two or more of these cross correlate in other words your PE

PE?

Percieved effort. You may have seen a chart on the wall at one of the places you workout.
Can't remember the name of the guy who started it but its a number ranging from 6-20. 6
being no effort 20 being "Throw your gits up and faint" hard. Again highly recommned getting
Friels, or any other book that covers teh subject, as alot of this is explained in more
detail and much better than I have here.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was 16 on the repeat after VT then your LT is probably around the HR that is shown for that
repeat. From there you can find out all of your workout zones based on LT adn listed in Friels
book. (I'm sure available somewhere else too) I'm sure this is probably confusion shown as
verbage and is why I highly recommend the book. If nothing else get it from the library and copy
the pertanant pages. There are other methods of determining LT but they are similar to teh above.
You can also determine LT medically via blood tests. I'm assuming a repeat, draw blood, repeat
draw blood. I did see a new gadget the other day that operated much the same way a blood sugar
thingy does for diabetics but measures Lactate instead. This woudl be the best way as a direct
reading could obtained. Unfortunately I'b bet the little gadget is expensive, haven't seen a
price or even if it's available for sale yet.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

<MJuric> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

DaKitty said:

<MJuric> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:08:08 -0700, "DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

>>
>> ~Matt
>
>thanks for that info, it's very interesting.
>
>One more question, how is an LT done?

An LT test? An LT test can be done several ways. The one recommend by Friel for swimming
consist of a warm up, and several 100yd repeats with 10 secs rest between.

At what pace?

Quoted message said:

Each succesive repeat is done a bit harder than the previous. This is continued until the
subject/ swimmer can go no faster or fails to finish the repeat.

Make that about 3 or 4x100 (increasing) for me to get to the point of out

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

breath, and at that point my herartrate is around 135

Try starting out MUCH easier and building up slowly. The first repeat should be akin to a
easy walk.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

After each repeat your HR, percieved effort, pace & VT(Ventaltion threshold, point at were you
start breathing heavily) are recorded. Using these three indicators(pace is only recorded for
future use and comparison reasons) you can get a good indication of were your LT is. Usually
within a repeat or two of VT, at a PE of 15-17 and normally not more than 5-6 repeats from the
point of quiting. If two or more of these cross correlate in other words your PE

PE?

Percieved effort. You may have seen a chart on the wall at one of the places you workout. Can't
remember the name of the guy who started it but its a number ranging from 6-20. 6 being no effort
20 being "Throw your gits up and faint" hard. Again highly recommned getting Friels, or any other
book that covers teh subject, as alot of this is explained in more detail and much better than I
have here.

~Matt

ah! Thanks for all the good info. It was very helpful, and right at the level of detail that works
for me at the moment. I saved your posts, so I can get the literature, soon, as more detail becomes
important.

Thank you very much 🙂