Heart rate zone training

LuvMyBike333 said:

Fellow bikers,

At the Technical University in Denmark, we have developed a web service that helps you improve performace through heart rate zone based workouts. You can create your own workout on the website and upload some music to accompany it.

swirlfit.comswirlfit.comOpen ↗ creates an MP3 file with virtual coaching instructions with your music in the background. You play it on your iPod or MP3 player. So you need an iPod or MP3 player to use it.

We are looking for beta testers - everyone is welcome to try it out and give us feedback.

If you like it, this is a service you will be able to continue to use for free.

Cheers,
LuvMyBike333

I'm surprised a University would put resources into a pretty outmoded method of training.

Also I don't think encouraging the use of devices that distract attention from the road/traffic is a good idea for cyclists - you need all your senses for safe riding. Certainly a good option for indoor trainers.

Alex Simmons said:

I'm surprised a University would put resources into a pretty outmoded method of training.

Also I don't think encouraging the use of devices that distract attention from the road/traffic is a good idea for cyclists - you need all your senses for safe riding. Certainly a good option for indoor trainers.

Hi Alex,

Thanks for the feedback. Is heart rate zone training really an outmoded method of training? What are you guys using in the US these days?

Dave

I don't think it's necessarily an outmoded method of training. There are lots of cyclists I know that are still using heart rate. However, I would think you might get more response from people using power on this particular forum set - just a bit about knowing your audience before posting stuff like this on an internet forum. You might want to consider workouts in both power training and heart rate training.

Just a thought, but I found heart rate training falling very short of my needs for shorter intervals which is why I switched to power. Along with that, it's usually only the shorter intervals where I find it a pain to check times on the cyclocomputer where it would be nice to have a "in my head coach" or something like that yelling at me, so only for the workouts where heart rate was the least useful would a "in my head" coach be most useful.

vw

LuvMyBike333 said:

Hi Alex,

Thanks for the feedback. Is heart rate zone training really an outmoded method of training? What are you guys using in the US these days?

Dave

Presumably the same as we use here in Australia and in Denmark - training with power. Reference Danish Pro Tour team CSC's use of SRM power meters. Or Team Discovery Channel. Or the former Phonak team's use of Powertap power meters.

Also the use of power analysis software Cycling Peaks WKO+ by Pro Tour teams Telekom and Predictor-Lotto.

Training with power is not new, especially to publicly funded sports institutes in many countries and most sports science research on cycling performance includes reference to impact on power as a key measure.

HR training is not completely useless, just it is a long way behind the latest, which is what I'd have thought a university would be basing developments on.

The concept of combining music and workout info is a good one - for fixed trainer cycling.

Does anyone else see a problem with the responses here.

I for one still use heart rate as my primary method of training and just about every cyclist in my club does as well. Why, because power meters are way too expensive to justify for the average joe cyclist. I don't doubt that training with power is the best way but Pro cyclists get their power meter for free - I dont.

So why train based on heart rate, because its the next best thing and decent heart rate monitors are pretty cheap and once you understand the limitations and the fact that there is a lag between heart rate and changes in power output then they can do a pretty decent job.

Also - I use an iPod just about everytime I train. I generally ride alone and I have never had any real problems with safety.

I also think that the creators have been wise at targetting heart rate zone training. Why - because there are way more people that train using heart rate monitors than power meters. Sure the use of power meters is increasing but until they come down in price substantially they will remain out of reach for the average joe cyclist.

Kestrel12 said:

Does anyone else see a problem with the responses here.

I for one still use heart rate as my primary method of training and just about every cyclist in my club does as well. Why, because power meters are way too expensive to justify for the average joe cyclist. I don't doubt that training with power is the best way but Pro cyclists get their power meter for free - I dont.

So why train based on heart rate, because its the next best thing and decent heart rate monitors are pretty cheap and once you understand the limitations and the fact that there is a lag between heart rate and changes in power output then they can do a pretty decent job.

Also - I use an iPod just about everytime I train. I generally ride alone and I have never had any real problems with safety.

I also think that the creators have been wise at targetting heart rate zone training. Why - because there are way more people that train using heart rate monitors than power meters. Sure the use of power meters is increasing but until they come down in price substantially they will remain out of reach for the average joe cyclist.

My point is that we are talking about a technical university not focussing on the latest developments in training which is what I would expect from a technical university. If we are talking about a consumer product, there are plenty of for-profit businesses to do that.

I have no specific beef with HR training, providing it's limitations are understood.

Kestrel12 said:

Does anyone else see a problem with the responses here.

Yes. A profound lack of social grace. When someone has spent such a great deal of effort preparing a systematic study model, to simply shoot it down based on opinions of the value of the entire field of study is both wasteful and unnecessary. If you cannot support the idea, say nothing. If you really feel that it is necessary to suggest a new cource of action (i.e. watts training), then do so respectfully, as if it were being done in person.

The lack of social grace comes from posting on a forum to propose using a product linked to a commercial product with little to no history with the forum users. Add to that the cross posting of this information to other forums with multiple user names with "cookie cutter" posts, and the whole thing smells of shill posting.

The point isn't that the product has no use, but that it seems odd that a technical university would be proposing the use of something with questionable safety (even I use my iPod often on long solo rides, but would never recommend it to others, just like I would never recommend people run stop lights but have done it myself when I have personally seen no traffic from anywhere in the area) and using methods that are - from what I can see from other users - being replaced in rapid fashion by watts based training.

Polar is doing the exact same thing with www.podfitness.com

Kestrel12 said:

Does anyone else see a problem with the responses here.

I for one still use heart rate as my primary method of training and just about every cyclist in my club does as well. Why, because power meters are way too expensive to justify for the average joe cyclist. I don't doubt that training with power is the best way but Pro cyclists get their power meter for free - I dont.

So why train based on heart rate, because its the next best thing and decent heart rate monitors are pretty cheap and once you understand the limitations and the fact that there is a lag between heart rate and changes in power output then they can do a pretty decent job.

Also - I use an iPod just about everytime I train. I generally ride alone and I have never had any real problems with safety.

I also think that the creators have been wise at targetting heart rate zone training. Why - because there are way more people that train using heart rate monitors than power meters. Sure the use of power meters is increasing but until they come down in price substantially they will remain out of reach for the average joe cyclist.

Hi Kestrel12,

We have a lot of users just like you who are beta testing our product. And that's really all we are looking for: beta testers.

All of us in this group at the Technical University of Denmark are training enthusiasts of one sort or another. My exercise of choice is cardio and strength workouts at the gym, speed hiking mountain trails and mountain biking.

I guess you could say we are not high end competitive atheletes. We chose to focus on technologies (i.e. ipods and heart rate monitors) that were relatively inexpensive, widely available, and widely used. The goal was not to be cutting edge, but to hopefully delivering the most good to the most people. Also it happens to be the stuff that we use. 🙂

I'll going to start reading up on power training though. It sounds pretty interesting.

Cheers,
BM1234

LuvMyBike333 said:

Hi Kestrel12,

We have a lot of users just like you who are beta testing our product. And that's really all we are looking for: beta testers.

All of us in this group at the Technical University of Denmark are training enthusiasts of one sort or another. My exercise of choice is cardio and strength workouts at the gym, speed hiking mountain trails and mountain biking.

I guess you could say we are not high end competitive atheletes. We chose to focus on technologies (i.e. ipods and heart rate monitors) that were relatively inexpensive, widely available, and widely used. The goal was not to be cutting edge, but to hopefully delivering the most good to the most people. Also it happens to be the stuff that we use. 🙂

I'll going to start reading up on power training though. It sounds pretty interesting.

Cheers,
BM1234

OK - all makes sense. For reading up on training with power, start here:
http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/
and here:
http://www.trainwithpower.net/
which lists heaps of references both online and in print.

Have fun! 🙂

Not to keep this post going but I have to agree with Nomad on all his points especially the not the right place to post it point. I also ride with my ipod often and while I live in a city with way too much traffic, I grew up with it as a messenger so I have a little more experience with it but would never recommend it.

But on another point you brought up which I have issue with, I have found that of all the monies I have spent on cycling equipment and coaching, if I had to do it all over again the only big investment for me would be a power meter. I tell everyone I know in CP now, drop the aero wheels, the carbon frames and first invest in the power meter with a decent bike and also of just as much importance the Training with the Power Meter Book. It was and is the best money I have ever spent.

-JS

Kestrel12 said:

Does anyone else see a problem with the responses here.

I for one still use heart rate as my primary method of training and just about every cyclist in my club does as well. Why, because power meters are way too expensive to justify for the average joe cyclist. I don't doubt that training with power is the best way but Pro cyclists get their power meter for free - I dont.

So why train based on heart rate, because its the next best thing and decent heart rate monitors are pretty cheap and once you understand the limitations and the fact that there is a lag between heart rate and changes in power output then they can do a pretty decent job.

Also - I use an iPod just about everytime I train. I generally ride alone and I have never had any real problems with safety.

I also think that the creators have been wise at targetting heart rate zone training. Why - because there are way more people that train using heart rate monitors than power meters. Sure the use of power meters is increasing but until they come down in price substantially they will remain out of reach for the average joe cyclist.

Alex Simmons said:

OK - all makes sense. For reading up on training with power, start here:
cyclingpeakssoftware.compower411Open ↗
and here:
trainwithpower.nettrainwithpower.netOpen ↗
which lists heaps of references both online and in print.

Have fun! 🙂

Hey thanks for the tips Alex! I can definitely use that information. Much appreciated.

Cheers,
LMB333

jsirabella said:

Not to keep this post going but I have to agree with Nomad on all his points especially the not the right place to post it point. I also ride with my ipod often and while I live in a city with way too much traffic, I grew up with it as a messenger so I have a little more experience with it but would never recommend it.

But on another point you brought up which I have issue with, I have found that of all the monies I have spent on cycling equipment and coaching, if I had to do it all over again the only big investment for me would be a power meter. I tell everyone I know in CP now, drop the aero wheels, the carbon frames and first invest in the power meter with a decent bike and also of just as much importance the Training with the Power Meter Book. It was and is the best money I have ever spent.

-JS

Hi jsirabella,

Since we use heart rate data for training, I thought that "Tech Corner > Cycling Training" would be the right place to post this. What do you think would be the best category?

Cheers,
LMB333

Kestrel12 said:

Does anyone else see a problem with the responses here.

Why, because power meters are way too expensive to justify for the average joe cyclist.

So you're saying that in the cycling world of $70 cable housings, $400 bib shorts and shoes, $1000 entry level bikes and $2000 wheels that spending $500~$1000 on something that can actually make you faster instead of just looking faster is un-justifiable?

mkay.

Honestly if I were starting a business with this type of device I would target the gym rats, traveler and the spinner to racer person.

This item would work especially well for spinners/gym rats. I used to enjoy spinning when I first started to get into shape and needed cardio to go with my weight training. Sometimes you can not always make the time the classes start and spinning classes only use heart rate if anything to see how you are doing. Also as a gym rat, the only thing you can do on those stupid life cycle machines is either manual or one of the built in programs and just pedal. You have no idea if your are really doing well or not and gives no plan. This could give the gym rat a real cardio plan that could target maybe something like bodyfat reduction (??).

I myself travel alot and especially during race season find it tough to fit in the training. I go from city to city find gyms to work out in but all they have are spinners (if that) but all have life cycle machines. These machines do have watt readings but I find them unaccurate at best. This type of device could work for that person similar to how hunter created erg files for your computrainer.

The last group which I feel may be the most important is the gym rat/spinner/been riding for one year with no direction rider. I myself found when wanting to get into more serious bicycle training that there really is a wall to entry. Info is scattered and bike shops have people selling bikes and giving advice who do not even ride a bike. The serious cyclist who belongs to a team probably does not want to give the info out as it took him years to put it togtether and the clubs which are more about "are you part of the culture or not attitudes". Yes we can all buy the great bikes and the cool clothes but not really much of how to train and get ready for racing. If you could package this item so a person who buys there bike for a few dollars extras can get this device than you have something because he is looking for anything. Ofcourse this is what the boys with the power meter already developed but it is still kind of a secret currently....shhh.

Well this is my humble take on it as I wrote a few business plans in my lifetime but you just need to find your audience. Target the boards and places these people are, especially the gyms...and say the name Lance Armstrong alot, it always gets the people's attention...Lance says...get the idea.😄

-JS

LuvMyBike333 said:

Hi jsirabella,

Since we use heart rate data for training, I thought that "Tech Corner > Cycling Training" would be the right place to post this. What do you think would be the best category?

Cheers,
LMB333

LuvMyBike333 said:

Hi jsirabella,

Since we use heart rate data for training, I thought that "Tech Corner > Cycling Training" would be the right place to post this. What do you think would be the best category?

Cheers,
LMB333

I think that's a fine place to post it but I do think you'll get a better response over at www.bikeforums.net (check the "road biking" board). This board is MUCH more heavily populated with people training with power meters, which yes are considered a more accurate way to train, but are not the only way to train. I think what you are doing still has a big use. Not everyone can afford a power meter (even used, they're usually $500+ and new they're $1000+ for accurate ones).

One thing everyone talking about the danger of riding with an ipod should consider: he never said you had to use it outside. I can actually see a great use for this in the winter when I'm stuck on a trainer. And it can actually be of use to those with power meters. When you're doing intervals and you're dialing it up to 500 watts, the music's beat will pick up to motivate you. What's wrong with that?

jsirabella said:

Honestly if I were starting a business with this type of device I would target the gym rats, traveler and the spinner to racer person.

This item would work especially well for spinners/gym rats. I used to enjoy spinning when I first started to get into shape and needed cardio to go with my weight training. Sometimes you can not always make the time the classes start and spinning classes only use heart rate if anything to see how you are doing. Also as a gym rat, the only thing you can do on those stupid life cycle machines is either manual or one of the built in programs and just pedal. You have no idea if your are really doing well or not and gives no plan. This could give the gym rat a real cardio plan that could target maybe something like bodyfat reduction (??).

I myself travel alot and especially during race season find it tough to fit in the training. I go from city to city find gyms to work out in but all they have are spinners (if that) but all have life cycle machines. These machines do have watt readings but I find them unaccurate at best. This type of device could work for that person similar to how hunter created erg files for your computrainer.

The last group which I feel may be the most important is the gym rat/spinner/been riding for one year with no direction rider. I myself found when wanting to get into more serious bicycle training that there really is a wall to entry. Info is scattered and bike shops have people selling bikes and giving advice who do not even ride a bike. The serious cyclist who belongs to a team probably does not want to give the info out as it took him years to put it togtether and the clubs which are more about "are you part of the culture or not attitudes". Yes we can all buy the great bikes and the cool clothes but not really much of how to train and get ready for racing. If you could package this item so a person who buys there bike for a few dollars extras can get this device than you have something because he is looking for anything. Ofcourse this is what the boys with the power meter already developed but it is still kind of a secret currently....shhh.

Well this is my humble take on it as I wrote a few business plans in my lifetime but you just need to find your audience. Target the boards and places these people are, especially the gyms...and say the name Lance Armstrong alot, it always gets the people's attention...Lance says...get the idea.😄

-JS

Hey JS,

You have some great insights. I appreciate your taking the time to write them down. With a single post, you have pretty much figured out a good chunk of the thinking we've developed over months. Haha. What sort of work do you do?

I agree with all your comments about gym rats and cardio machines at the gym. Interval training is really at the heart of these machines and so the people who use them should get significant value out of the service. And I particularly liked your comment about packaging the device with bikes and cardio equipment.

In principal, the service should work just as well with power meters as it does with heart rate. Take this power meter for instance:

quarq.usindex.phpOpen ↗

It uses a wireless technology that would allow our special MP3 device, the Swirl, to read data from the Qranium power meter in a similar fashion to the way we read heart rate data from a chest strap.

So how did you break through the training wall you were talking about.

And here's my gratuitous reference to Lance. I actually got to ask Lance question about his recovery from cancer one time when he came to visit a company i used to work for. Our CEO at the time was a competitive triathlete. 😎

- LMB333

donrhummy said:

I think that's a fine place to post it but I do think you'll get a better response over at www.bikeforums.net (check the "road biking" board). This board is MUCH more heavily populated with people training with power meters, which yes are considered a more accurate way to train, but are not the only way to train. I think what you are doing still has a big use. Not everyone can afford a power meter (even used, they're usually $500+ and new they're $1000+ for accurate ones).

One thing everyone talking about the danger of riding with an ipod should consider: he never said you had to use it outside. I can actually see a great use for this in the winter when I'm stuck on a trainer. And it can actually be of use to those with power meters. When you're doing intervals and you're dialing it up to 500 watts, the music's beat will pick up to motivate you. What's wrong with that?

Hi donrhummy,

Thanks for the tip about bikeforums.net. And you make a great point about the use of music with interval training. I like the heart rate feedback because it lets me know if I'm working hard enough. But at least as important to me is the motivational effect of mixing my music to match the intensity level of my intervals. Although, as you mention, this is perhaps more of an indoor thing that an outside thing.

However, I have mapped out mountain courses with a Garmin Forerunner 305 and then used Swirlfit to define a set of intervals which correlate to my speed hiking trails. I can then use my custom Swirlfit audio workout programs to guide me through my speed hikes. It really works pretty well.

- LMB333