Heart Rate Zone

yoyo583 said:

Then what formula do you use to calculate max HR if you are just using a HRM? How are you calculating this? Guessing or do you actually follow a formula...odds are you are using a formula to tell you what the max is. The names you provided are not did not win the Tour de France...Lance was trained at the USOC and last I checked 24 Hour Fitness was his sponsor and NASM was the training team.

LA used an SRM and measured power.

Quoted post said:

In the end, I am not hear to discuss the records of foreign athletes or their training schedule.

this isn't a US based board, so will you ignore the foreigners? (i can almost hear them breathe a sigh of relief)

Quoted post said:

The reason why is because you don't know how they train or their max HR...that is a guarded secret and any athlete that is worth their weight in gold will keep that information confidential.

are you yanking my chain? HRmax is secret? I'm laughing myself stupid

Quoted post said:

Lastly, if you like to discuss a different method please let me know your certification-NPFT, NASM, NCCPT, ect...

first class honours degree in sports science. not that, that matters, as anyone here will tell you, you're talking out of your ass, whether they're certified or not. Lastly, we do have a leading exercise physiologist here on the forum, not that he'll tell you anything different to what has already been said before.

cheers
ric

Rhubarb said:

I cannot believe I am having an argument with a cycling coach about this!!

i don't think he is.

ric

yoyo583 said:

Then what formula do you use to calculate max HR if you are just using a HRM? How are you calculating this? Guessing or do you actually follow a formula...

I used neither a formula, and nor did i guess. I ascertained my HRmax, by completing a maximal incremental test to exhaustion, while at the same time measuring second by second my power output, expired respiratory gases, and other metrics.

I also know that my HRmax is exercise modality dependent, something you failed to mention.

Ric

As stated earlier, and I really suggest you read your prior posts as well as mine, 220-Age is the standard. It is a frame work for max HR. This has been mentioned over and over again. So again, please read the posts.

I see you are in Wales and think this is part of the issue. After reading over some of your stats, I believe that the proof is in those you train. Seeing how you have yet to train or to work with those competing at the national level, I would caution you to not be to proud to learn. After all, you have to make a name for yourself and if you are truly a scientist then you know there are no absolutes. Pride is based on ones own unwillingness to face their stupidity.

You lack of knowledge on the general characteristics of respiratory efficiency is scary. How do you run a 10K, Rich? Do you believe that poor running posture is a good thing? How about postural distortion? Do you even recall the class at Brighton that covered the Scientific Rationale for Integrated Training or Cardiorespiratory Training. The fact is the body and the kenetic chain must be in perfect alignment if you are to expect a person to be efficient. Tell me, is the reason your athletes are not winning because you are having them ride a bike that is poorly sized or not geometrically correct to their physical composition?

Simply put, you can't breathe efficiently when you are only using a fraction of your lungs. When you are breathing from your chest instead of your diaphram and core. I thought this was a know fact and went without stating. What is the purpose of blood, Rich? To supply the muscles with the needed oxygen/nutrients and remove waste...right? What happens when your HR picks up? I think it goes without saying your blood pressure increases and blood travels through the body quicker and supplies nutrients at a faster rate. What happens when you blood has a lower amount of oxygen than what is required continue the activity? Either your HR increases to attempt to correct this issue or you begin to feel light headed and eventually pass out. Have you ever gone to the top of a moutain, Rich? What happens? There is less oxygen and thus your breathing increases as well as your HR. What happens if you stay there and train there? Oh, your body learns to increase its lung capacity and your breathing gets easier and you HR begins to return to normal. YOU LEARN EFFICIENCY. Its evolution-we adapt. Now take that same simple fact and apply it to biking. We make frames in many different sizes and the geometrity is differnt since, as you stated, everyone is different. To believe that you can compete at a national level by merely by a Specialized bike off the rack only shows a lack of knowledge for the sport. Those that are interested in competing at the national level understand you do need to go to the lab, find your efficiency level. From there, report to the tunnel to find out if the bike is making you the most efficient. From the pedal strokes to the handle bar extension, to head position-all are key to being the best.

Lastly, I accept the guide as a frame work since it has been proven to work. Sorry Rich, I plan on taking the word of several MD's over someone who just graduated 8 years ago. However, I would be interested in reading your article about legalizing drugs...I know some people are against USADA but encouraging those to seek the quick fix only show a lack of personal readiness to meet the challenge of training todays best.

In the end, I believe that their are those out there to help other around them and then there are those that are still trying to justify their degree by making the science behind the sport seem unattainable without them. If you want to make a sales pitch, please do. As for me, knowledge is free Rich and for those readers that want a good way to find max HR, please follow the formula. Those that want absolutes and believe you can find this by guessing after looking at HRM, please continue to guess. Those that believe they have the absolute, by all means run until you pass out and have someone take your HR proir to treating you for heat stress and possible stroke.

ric_stern/RST said:

then you would know that the SD (or is it SEM?) for 220-age is +/- 15 bpm, which renders it useless for advocating a HRmax for an individual.

No sports scientist, or exercise physiologist with half a brain would advocate 220-age as being exact for exercise prescription for an individual.

I would *love* to know how you found it was a bike frame that caused someone to have a higher HRmax than someone else?

Sports science may not be brain surgery, but you seem to be failing at sports science.

Ric "sports scientist, coach"

No I am saying that the 220-Age was the frame work. After that, yes the individual test is best but for those that aren't able to afford the individual test or the trainer, 220-age is a great frame work.

Rhubarb said:

Are you saying Armstrong one the TdF 7 times because he worked out his HR zones by using 220 - Age?

Come on man!

Yep, sure I use a formula to work out a probable max HR. And my point is that it is more accurate than 220 - Age, because it actually involves data generated from 'my' body. It's a crazy concept, I know!

If we were to do a poll of all the cyclists on this site who use a HRM and have somehow worked out a probable max HR using a number of different methods, to which they personally find suitable; I am sure the vast majority would not have the same max HR as 220 - their age.

I cannot believe I am having an argument with a cycling coach about this!!

220 - Age is redundant for any athlete who wants to take their training half seriously!

Man you really need to read the post prior to comment. HRmax is not the secret-training however is. After all, tell me the method of training used by todays best. I think this is why you can't walk into the USOC and train with the athletes. I know I signed a non-disclosure for no reason....thanks for reminding me.

ric_stern/RST said:

LA used an SRM and measured power.

this isn't a US based board, so will you ignore the foreigners? (i can almost hear them breathe a sigh of relief)

are you yanking my chain? HRmax is secret? I'm laughing myself stupid

first class honours degree in sports science. not that, that matters, as anyone here will tell you, you're talking out of your ass, whether they're certified or not. Lastly, we do have a leading exercise physiologist here on the forum, not that he'll tell you anything different to what has already been said before.

cheers
ric

Great and how does the everyday rider do all this? Thats right they can't so whats the next best thing? A framework to find the Max HR? Thats too logical...

ric_stern/RST said:

I used neither a formula, and nor did i guess. I ascertained my HRmax, by completing a maximal incremental test to exhaustion, while at the same time measuring second by second my power output, expired respiratory gases, and other metrics.

I also know that my HRmax is exercise modality dependent, something you failed to mention.

Ric

yoyo583 said:

Hey Jeff,
Thanks for the post. Unforentaley, 220 is the standard and unless you have been to the lab for testing. If you are still at 210-212 that isn't necessarily a bad thing. These numbers are accurate but everyone varies a little. This is why the rest HR is 60-80 BPM. My question would be diet, stress level, any know conditions of high blood pressure, intake of caffine products, ect... Another thing to remember is just because you can pump you heart to the maximum doesn't mean you should continue to do so. I know a couple of guys that are have been active all their life yet suffered a stroke or a heart attack because they continued to think it was great to work out at their maximum. By continuing to work outside of zone 1-3, you are running the risk of damaging your heart instead of improving your cardio.

James
www.trailheadperformance.com

First, how old were these guys and do you have concrete proof that their stroke/heart attack was due to the reason you give?
Many young athletes in various fields suddenly collapse and die, and I think I'm safe in saying they were predisposed to a heart attack/stroke from the moment they were born.
If I may give you 3 examples that I personally have witnessed.

When I was in my 20s, a 23 year old friend who had been running with us for some time, suddenly collapsed after 300 metres of a cross country race with a stroke.

Later in my 40s, a 44 year old friend who ran 11 miles to work everyday and 11 miles back, one evening after returning home he collapsed and died from a massive heart attack. The doctors said, if he hadn't been running all his life he would probably have died some years before.

Another 50 year old friend Danny collapsed and died in front of us after a 4 mile run. Danny always sweated profusely on the runs and finished red faced and out of breath. Although he had been running since his teens, he probably wasn't genetically suited to exerting himself to level he did.

I ignored all these events and continued to train hard - harder than the above 3. I'm now 64 and training just as hard, yet in a different sport.
I feel that to say a couple of people you know died through training outside of HR zones 1-3 is scaremongering and might be interpreted by some as a good reason for reducing their present effort, thereby stunting their progress.

I'm no scientist, but I've always believed it is impossible to damage the heart which after all is only a muscle through hard training.Please correct me if I'm wrong. TYSON

Hey Tyson,
Sorry for your loss. The guys I had that experience problems were actually prior SEALs in their 40's. They lived a hard life, obviously, but in the end their deaths were due to stroke and heart failure. You're right. The heart is a muscle however there is such a thing as damaging a muscle.

If you have been training all your life, Sir and are outside the Zone 3, then continue on. Everyone is different and thus the zone training is intended as a framework to encourage people to train but within reason. Only you know your body and if you are comfortable training your heart outside zone 3 and aren't experiencing chest pain, lightheadedness, ect... then you should be fine.

My only caution to you would be to listen to your body while training. My parents are in their 60's and my mom is a doctor. She is able to bike 14 miles with me up in the mountains and I know most people her age would die from this. But her condition and training exceeds the standard for her age. All I would say is find a balance and listen. There is that drive to exceed but that must be kept within reason and one must ensure they push themselve while still ensuring they are capable of going the distance. Unfortenately, we all get older and the only thing we can control is how we age. It sounds like you've got the clock beat.

James
www.trailheadperformance.com

Sillyoldtwit said:

First, how old were these guys and do you have concrete proof that their stroke/heart attack was due to the reason you give?
Many young athletes in various fields suddenly collapse and die, and I think I'm safe in saying they were predisposed to a heart attack/stroke from the moment they were born.
If I may give you 3 examples that I personally have witnessed.

When I was in my 20s, a 23 year old friend who had been running with us for some time, suddenly collapsed after 300 metres of a cross country race with a stroke.

Later in my 40s, a 44 year old friend who ran 11 miles to work everyday and 11 miles back, one evening after returning home he collapsed and died from a massive heart attack. The doctors said, if he hadn't been running all his life he would probably have died some years before.

Another 50 year old friend Danny collapsed and died in front of us after a 4 mile run. Danny always sweated profusely on the runs and finished red faced and out of breath. Although he had been running since his teens, he probably wasn't genetically suited to exerting himself to level he did.

I ignored all these events and continued to train hard - harder than the above 3. I'm now 64 and training just as hard, yet in a different sport.
I feel that to say a couple of people you know died through training outside of HR zones 1-3 is scaremongering and might be interpreted by some as a good reason for reducing their present effort, thereby stunting their progress.

I'm no scientist, but I've always believed it is impossible to damage the heart which after all is only a muscle through hard training.Please correct me if I'm wrong. TYSON

yoyo583 said:

I see you are in Wales and think this is part of the issue.

Are you suggesting that Wales doesn't have any good riders? Last time i checked there were some good riders here (e.g., Nicole Cooke, Magnus Backstedt, plus others).

Quoted post said:

After reading over some of your stats, I believe that the proof is in those you train. Seeing how you have yet to train or to work with those competing at the national level, I would caution you to not be to proud to learn. After all, you have to make a name for yourself and if you are truly a scientist then you know there are no absolutes. Pride is based on ones own unwillingness to face their stupidity.

Yet to work with people at a national level? Oh well, if top 10 rider in the TdF isn't national level, then excuse me. But, to add to that i coach other road pros, MTB pros, masters world champs, and i've coached national champs in every traditional cycling discipline (including track sprint) except for track pursuit (silver). Additionally, i work with a variety of other riders from fitness to 1st cats.

Quoted post said:

You lack of knowledge on the general characteristics of respiratory efficiency is scary. How do you run a 10K,

one foot in front of the other, in my case very slowly.

Quoted post said:

Rich?

i suggest you learn to read.

Quoted post said:

Do you believe that poor running posture is a good thing? How about postural distortion? Do you even recall the class at Brighton that covered the Scientific Rationale for Integrated Training or Cardiorespiratory Training. The fact is the body and the kenetic chain must be in perfect alignment if you are to expect a person to be efficient. Tell me, is the reason your athletes are not winning

who said they're not winning?

Quoted post said:

There is less oxygen

the percentage of O2 is the same as at sea level. it's the partial pressure that decreases.

Quoted post said:

To believe that you can compete at a national level by merely by a Specialized bike off the rack only shows a lack of knowledge for the sport.

sorry, i know lots of people that ride a Specialized off the peg and compete at a high level.

Quoted post said:

As for me, knowledge is free Rich and for those readers that want a good way to find max HR, please follow the formula.

220-age, is NOT a good way to set up HR levels

Cheers
ric

Hey Rich,
I am not saying that Wales doesn't have any good riders. I know they do. By the way, none of the top 10 were from Wale. The top 10 were:

1. Floyd Landis (USA - PHO)
2. Carlos Sastre (ESP - CSC) at 5’42"
3. Christophe Moreau (FRA - A2R) at 5’58"
4. Damiano Cunego (ITA - LAM) at 6’40"
5. Michael Boogerd (NED - RAB) at 7’08"
6. Frank Schleck (LUX - CSC) - at 7’08"
7. Oscar Pereiro (ESP - CSC) - at 7’08"
8. Andreas Kloden (GER - TMO) - at 7’08"
9. Haimar Zubeldia (ESP - EUS) - at 7’08"
10. Cadel Evans (AUS - DVL) - at 7’20"

I would like to thank you for all the information though. I know we disagree but our training is different. I understand you zeil for perfection and am awed but the 220-Age was intended as a framework. I thought it might help some people out there that can't get to a trainer or take a test. The post was intended to help those get a general idea of how to begin the training process and sure once they compete at a higher level, the test gets more sophisticated.
Thanks for the posts though. I wish you the best.

ric_stern/RST said:

Are you suggesting that Wales doesn't have any good riders? Last time i checked there were some good riders here (e.g., Nicole Cooke, Magnus Backstedt, plus others).

Yet to work with people at a national level? Oh well, if top 10 rider in the TdF isn't national level, then excuse me. But, to add to that i coach other road pros, MTB pros, masters world champs, and i've coached national champs in every traditional cycling discipline (including track sprint) except for track pursuit (silver). Additionally, i work with a variety of other riders from fitness to 1st cats.

one foot in front of the other, in my case very slowly.

i suggest you learn to read.

who said they're not winning?

the percentage of O2 is the same as at sea level. it's the partial pressure that decreases.

sorry, i know lots of people that ride a Specialized off the peg and compete at a high level.

220-age, is NOT a good way to set up HR levels

Cheers
ric

yoyo583 said:

Hey Rich,
I am not saying that Wales doesn't have any good riders. I know they do. By the way, none of the top 10 were from Wale. The top 10 were:

1. Floyd Landis (USA - PHO)
2. Carlos Sastre (ESP - CSC) at 5’42"
3. Christophe Moreau (FRA - A2R) at 5’58"
4. Damiano Cunego (ITA - LAM) at 6’40"
5. Michael Boogerd (NED - RAB) at 7’08"
6. Frank Schleck (LUX - CSC) - at 7’08"
7. Oscar Pereiro (ESP - CSC) - at 7’08"
8. Andreas Kloden (GER - TMO) - at 7’08"
9. Haimar Zubeldia (ESP - EUS) - at 7’08"
10. Cadel Evans (AUS - DVL) - at 7’20"

what top 10 is that?

glad to see you still can't read.

Quoted post said:

I would like to thank you for all the information though. I know we disagree but our training is different. I understand you zeil for perfection and am awed but the 220-Age was intended as a framework. I thought it might help some people out there that can't get to a trainer or take a test.

like they can't self test, or get more reliable data from just looking at their HRM.

Quoted post said:

Thanks for the posts though. I wish you the best.

best of luck to you to, you're going to need it.

ric

Yet to work with people at a national level? Oh well, if top 10 rider in the TdF isn't national level, then excuse me. But, to add to that i coach other road pros, MTB pros, masters world champs, and i've coached national champs in every traditional cycling discipline (including track sprint) except for track pursuit (silver). Additionally, i work with a variety of other riders from fitness to 1st cats.

You state here you work with the top 10 at the TDF and the top 10 for 2006 were:

1. Floyd Landis (USA - PHO)
2. Carlos Sastre (ESP - CSC) at 5’42"
3. Christophe Moreau (FRA - A2R) at 5’58"
4. Damiano Cunego (ITA - LAM) at 6’40"
5. Michael Boogerd (NED - RAB) at 7’08"
6. Frank Schleck (LUX - CSC) - at 7’08"
7. Oscar Pereiro (ESP - CSC) - at 7’08"
8. Andreas Kloden (GER - TMO) - at 7’08"
9. Haimar Zubeldia (ESP - EUS) - at 7’08"
10. Cadel Evans (AUS - DVL) - at 7’20"

None of the top 10 were from Wales. Sorry.

the percentage of O2 is the same as at sea level. it's the partial pressure that decreases.

Hummmmm perhaps you need a refresher. The 02 saturation is different. Take a look at this website: rice.edualtitude.htmlOpen ↗ This was published by Rice University.

Wrong top 10 genius.🙄

Jono L said:

Wrong top 10 genius.🙄

Yet to work with people at a national level? Oh well, if top 10 riders in the ****TdF***** isn't national level, then excuse me. But, to add to that i coach other road pros, MTB pros, masters world champs, and i've coached national champs in every traditional cycling discipline (including track sprint) except for track pursuit (silver). Additionally, i work with a variety of other riders from fitness to 1st cats.

HUMMMM thats pretty clear unless TDF is meaning something other than Tour de France.

No need to go throwing credentials. I'm sure you've workedat national level, but can you read? 😄 Final General classification 1 Floyd Landis (USA) Phonak 89.39.30 (40.784 km/h)2 Oscar Pereiro (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne-Illes Balears 0.573 Andreas Klöden (Ger) T-Mobile 1.294 Carlos Sastre (Spa) Team CSC 3.135 Cadel Evans (Aus) Davitamon-Lotto 5.086 Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank 7.067 Cyril Dessel (Fra) AG2R-Prevoyance 8.418 Christophe Moreau (Fra) AG2R-Prevoyance 9.379 Haimar Zubeldia (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 12.0510 Michael Rogers (Aus) T-Mobile 15.07

yoyo583 said:

No I am saying that the 220-Age was the frame work. After that, yes the individual test is best but for those that aren't able to afford the individual test or the trainer, 220-age is a great frame work.

Look, anyone who owns a HR monitor can do better than 220 - Age. That is an accpeted fact in the cycling, triathalon and the running communities.

So help me out. I have a HRM and can see that when I am running my top HR is 180 BPM. Now how do I calculate to find out what my MaxHR is?

Rhubarb said:

Look, anyone who owns a HR monitor can do better than 220 - Age. That is an accpeted fact in the cycling, triathalon and the running communities.

Jono L said:

No need to go throwing credentials. I'm sure you've workedat national level, but can you read? 😄 Final General classification 1 Floyd Landis (USA) Phonak 89.39.30 (40.784 km/h)2 Oscar Pereiro (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne-Illes Balears 0.573 Andreas Klöden (Ger) T-Mobile 1.294 Carlos Sastre (Spa) Team CSC 3.135 Cadel Evans (Aus) Davitamon-Lotto 5.086 Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank 7.067 Cyril Dessel (Fra) AG2R-Prevoyance 8.418 Christophe Moreau (Fra) AG2R-Prevoyance 9.379 Haimar Zubeldia (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 12.0510 Michael Rogers (Aus) T-Mobile 15.07

Alright if we are not talking about TDF and are talking about FG Classification. According to the post we were talking about TDF.

yoyo583 said:

Yet to work with people at a national level? Oh well, if top 10 rider in the TdF isn't national level, then excuse me. But, to add to that i coach other road pros, MTB pros, masters world champs, and i've coached national champs in every traditional cycling discipline (including track sprint) except for track pursuit (silver). Additionally, i work with a variety of other riders from fitness to 1st cats.

You state here you work with the top 10 at the TDF and the top 10 for 2006 were:

1. Floyd Landis (USA - PHO)
2. Carlos Sastre (ESP - CSC) at 5’42"
3. Christophe Moreau (FRA - A2R) at 5’58"
4. Damiano Cunego (ITA - LAM) at 6’40"
5. Michael Boogerd (NED - RAB) at 7’08"
6. Frank Schleck (LUX - CSC) - at 7’08"
7. Oscar Pereiro (ESP - CSC) - at 7’08"
8. Andreas Kloden (GER - TMO) - at 7’08"
9. Haimar Zubeldia (ESP - EUS) - at 7’08"
10. Cadel Evans (AUS - DVL) - at 7’20"

None of the top 10 were from Wales. Sorry.

the percentage of O2 is the same as at sea level. it's the partial pressure that decreases.

Hummmmm perhaps you need a refresher. The 02 saturation is different. Take a look at this website: rice.edualtitude.htmlOpen ↗ This was published by Rice University.

who said i have to work with people in Wales? You can't even quote properly, read my name correctly, and can't quote the TdF finish list correctly?

I suggest that not only do you listen to me, but the others on the forum too, before shooting your mouth off.

ric