Heart rate and performance

Brian Huether said:

Lately I decided that I want to take a scientific approach to training as I
have learned that I have been going about it all wrong. I have been running
3 -4 days a week, 5-6 miles each time. I pretty much push myself fairly hard
during each run and average around 7:20 min/mile. But I now understand that
if I want to see improvement, I have to run less hard during most of my
runs. But that makes me wonder, how often should I be giving it my all? I am

I'd suggest speed workouts once a week on your current training load, and twice a
week after (if) you build to a consistent 6 days and 40 miles a week. I would
recommend you build to that (at least!) if you want to run a marathon. I wouldn't
go too hard on the speed workouts until you've built up more mileage. Maybe do a
4 mile tempo run at about 7:30 or so each week. Enter a 5k-10k race every
month or so if you can, this is good for tracking progress.

Quoted message said:

training for a marathon in October. I haven't started ramping up my miles. I
am just trying to train in such a way that I can run the marathon at around
a 8:00 pace.

I feel like I am in good shape, but today, for instance, I ran 5 miles at
around a 9:00 pace. I didn't feel out of breath or anything, but my
heartrate stayed around 150. That just seems high given the small exertion I
made.

This is normal. Heart rate is quite high even for easy running.

Quoted message said:

Anyway, I just want to increase my performance, which I know is tied to
VO2max, but I am just not sure how to proceed. I have the tools (the HRM)
and the desire, but I just feel like the big picture/strategy is missing.
Any help is appreciated.

A good book that discusses both training and a lot of the science involved is
the Jack Daniels book Daniels' Running Formula. Strongly recommend you read
this.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Brian Huether said:

Lately I decided that I want to take a scientific approach to training as I
have learned that I have been going about it all wrong. I have been running
3 -4 days a week, 5-6 miles each time. I pretty much push myself fairly hard
during each run and average around 7:20 min/mile.

What is your heart rate when you push to 7:20/mile?

....snip...

Quoted message said:

I
am just trying to train in such a way that I can run the marathon at around
a 8:00 pace.

I feel like I am in good shape, but today, for instance, I ran 5 miles at
around a 9:00 pace. I didn't feel out of breath or anything, but my
heartrate stayed around 150. That just seems high given the small exertion I
made.

How old are you (or what's your max HR if you know it), how long have you
been running regularly and how are you built?

Knowing this and the answer to the question about 7:20 pace effort, we can
maybe get an idea of how realistic an 8:00 marathon goal pace in October
would be.

Anyway, you might have a look at beginner marathon schedules on the web,
where you'll find they say pretty much the same thing as Donovan. Maybe
more than the total miles per week as such, it's getting in a longer run
once per week, increasing slowly up to about 3 hours of running, which is
the single most important thing.

Example sites:
http://www.halhigdon.com/marathon/Mar00novice.htm

http://www.marathontraining.com/marathon.html

http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,5033,s6-51-56-0-6946-1-2X4X6X8-5,00.html

Just Google for
first marathon training schedule

and you'll find plenty of ideas and detailed training schedules.

Since it sounds like BH has neither the base or endurance runs
yet, I'd stress the latter in a six month training program.
Run ten miles one day this weekend. In two weeks make that eleven
miles. By October you'll be up to 20 or 21. Continue your regular
runs in between, perhaps getting them up to an hour by October.

"steve common" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Brian Huether said:

Lately I decided that I want to take a scientific approach to training as
I
have learned that I have been going about it all wrong. I have been
running
3 -4 days a week, 5-6 miles each time. I pretty much push myself fairly
hard
during each run and average around 7:20 min/mile.

What is your heart rate when you push to 7:20/mile?

...snip...

Quoted message said:

I
am just trying to train in such a way that I can run the marathon at
around
a 8:00 pace.

I feel like I am in good shape, but today, for instance, I ran 5 miles at
around a 9:00 pace. I didn't feel out of breath or anything, but my
heartrate stayed around 150. That just seems high given the small exertion
I
made.

How old are you (or what's your max HR if you know it), how long have you
been running regularly and how are you built?

Knowing this and the answer to the question about 7:20 pace effort, we can
maybe get an idea of how realistic an 8:00 marathon goal pace in October
would be.

Anyway, you might have a look at beginner marathon schedules on the web,
where you'll find they say pretty much the same thing as Donovan. Maybe
more than the total miles per week as such, it's getting in a longer run
once per week, increasing slowly up to about 3 hours of running, which is
the single most important thing.

Example sites:
http://www.halhigdon.com/marathon/Mar00novice.htm

http://www.marathontraining.com/marathon.html

http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,5033,s6-51-56-0-6946-1-2X4X6X8-5,00.html

Just Google for
first marathon training schedule

and you'll find plenty of ideas and detailed training schedules.

I am 5'8", 32, 170lbs. Resting HR is around 58. I have been running on and
off for about 8 years, and started running much more regularly last fall
when I trained for my first marathon (but didn't have a scientific approach
at all - no speed work, etc), which I ran in 4:20. I felt like the things
that slowed me down the most were cramps behind my right calf and sharp
pains on the top of my foot. But right now I feel like a much stronger
runner, which is why I am trying to go for the 8:00 target. I think part of
it is that since January I have been training to climb Mt Rainier, which has
had me doing some very intense, strenuous , long duration hikes in the White
Mtns (NH).

thanks,

brian

"rick++" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Since it sounds like BH has neither the base or endurance runs
yet, I'd stress the latter in a six month training program.
Run ten miles one day this weekend. In two weeks make that eleven
miles. By October you'll be up to 20 or 21. Continue your regular
runs in between, perhaps getting them up to an hour by October.

That brings up another good question. When I trained last year for an Oct
marathon, I did the stagger pattern of long run, then backing down next
weekend, then longer (i.e. 8,6,10,8,12,10,etc). But I know some people just
ramp up a little each weekend. Is there any evidence to suggest that either
approach is better?

thanks,

brian

Brian Huether said:

That brings up another good question. When I trained last year for an
Oct marathon, I did the stagger pattern of long run, then backing down
next weekend, then longer (i.e. 8,6,10,8,12,10,etc). But I know some
people just ramp up a little each weekend. Is there any evidence to
suggest that either approach is better?

No hard evidence that I know of. However, most marathon plans will have
some sort of recovery week, whether it's every other week or every third
week. I think if you're going for minimal mileage to complete the distance,
then you might be OK with the every other week approach. It might not get
you the best results, but it has a better chance of getting you to the
starting line without injury or over training. Personally, I like backing
off every third week, but not until I'd steadily increased the long run to
about 15 miles. That's what I did to run a PB. FWIW, I'd throw in a mid-
week medium long run in the 11 to 14 mile range once the weekly mileage had
built up to 60 or more.

--
Phil M.

"Brian Huether" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Since it sounds like BH has neither the base or endurance runs
yet, I'd stress the latter in a six month training program.
Run ten miles one day this weekend. In two weeks make that eleven
miles. By October you'll be up to 20 or 21. Continue your regular
runs in between, perhaps getting them up to an hour by October.

That brings up another good question. When I trained last year for an Oct
marathon, I did the stagger pattern of long run, then backing down next
weekend, then longer (i.e. 8,6,10,8,12,10,etc). But I know some people
just ramp up a little each weekend. Is there any evidence to suggest that
either approach is better?

Extending the distance is not such an enormous task. In general, we can run
twice the distance by slowing down our pace about 7%.

Just for grins, if you can run 5 miles at a 9:30 pace, slow it down to
10:15, and you'll be able to do 10. Yes, you will be more tired, but you
can do it. (assuming it's not too hot, a similar course, and you ate well
the day before). So you don't need any fancy extra endurance training to
double your distance, within reasonable limits. Just go slower.

What you do need to adapt to is the general stress and pounding of being out
there for a longer time. That is why you need to train (ideally regularly)
at distances approaching that you're going to be racing.

If you go slower on your longer runs, they may end up being your favorite
run of the week -- that's true for me.

-- Dan

Brian Huether said:

Lately I decided that I want to take a scientific approach to training as I
have learned that I have been going about it all wrong. I have been running
3 -4 days a week, 5-6 miles each time. I pretty much push myself fairly hard
during each run and average around 7:20 min/mile. But I now understand that
if I want to see improvement, I have to run less hard during most of my
runs. But that makes me wonder, how often should I be giving it my all? I am
training for a marathon in October. I haven't started ramping up my miles. I
am just trying to train in such a way that I can run the marathon at around
a 8:00 pace.

I feel like I am in good shape, but today, for instance, I ran 5 miles at
around a 9:00 pace. I didn't feel out of breath or anything, but my
heartrate stayed around 150. That just seems high given the small exertion I
made.

Anyway, I just want to increase my performance, which I know is tied to
VO2max, but I am just not sure how to proceed. I have the tools (the HRM)
and the desire, but I just feel like the big picture/strategy is missing.
Any help is appreciated.

thanks,

brian

A heartrate of 150 when running a 9 min pace seems a bit high for
someone who trains at 7:20 usually. I find that after a hard day of
training my HR shoots up quickly the following day, maybe its a sign of
overtraining without enough rest between runs. Anyway I try to get in
one day a week of intervals at the track and one long run, my thoughts
are that if you meet these 2 goals the rest is easy.

Eric