Heart rate

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> "Paul" == paul <[email hidden]> writes:

I'm not a coach etc, not even a racer. Just a guy who's been using
heart rate monitors for ten years.

Paul> I am 43 years old, and love to ride. My question is at my age
Paul> my MHR should be about 177 right ?

Not necessarily. The 220 minus age thing is a VERY crude guesstimate.
There are other formulas around which take in to account body weight,
resting heart rate and all other sorts of stuff but the only way to find
out what your maximum is is to actually work hard enough to get your
heart up there.

Depending on your health this can be a risky exercise, it may pay to
have this test carried out under supervision.

Paul> Anyway when I ride if I cruise I can sit on around 60% max.

Paul> If I try to do a constant 40k's an hour my HR climbs
Paul> dramatically to 95% and touching 100 % even though I don't
Paul> feel completely stuffed.

Which means your max heart rate most certainly isn't 177. When you
reach your max heart rate you'll more than likely be wanting to
regurgitate the contents of your stomach, fall in a quivering heap, curl
up in to a ball and wait for the bad feelings to go away. Sounds like
you're nowhere near that.

Paul> My question is, am I risking something serious by riding at
Paul> 95% for long distances, is it causing damage to my Heart. I
Paul> feel if I sit in at about my Max comfort zone of 75% I am not
Paul> really working hard. Thanks for any feedback.

The heart rate's more of a barometer of other factors. When I work in
the 70-80 range it's a pace I can keep up all day. The problem is that
it takes a lot longer to recover from a 70-80 range workout than it does
a 60-70 range workout. When you're commuting five days a week, this is
a big deal as it means that the Thursday and Friday commute are going to
be really tough due to glycogen depletion and muscle fatigue. Sixty to
seventy still give you a good aerobic workout which allows one to
indulge in the odd coffee and cake (a benefit of a 30km commute ;-) )

The 70-80 range really isn't worth anything from a training perspective,
it's better to get real benefit from the workout by pushing up to the
80-85 range. The recovery time required for an 80-85 range workout's
more or less the same as a 70-80 and you get much more benefit.

All this is pretty meaningless until you find out what your max heart
rate is though. At thirty five that's not something I'd do without
supervision. I'm sure there are others in this group who could direct
you to someone reputable.

One final thought, don't become a slave to the heart rate monitor. It's
just another tool for gathering data about your performance. How I
generally use mine is to ensure that I stay below my recovery
threshold. Days that I'm not recovering, I barely look at it.
--
Cheers | ~~ __@
Euan | ~~ _-\<,
Melbourne, Australia | ~ (*)/ (*)

Paul said:

I am 43 years old, and love to ride.
My question is at my age my MHR should be about 177 right?

Not necessarily - the standard formula can be way off for some people.
You need to go absolutely flat out up a hill and see how high you can push
it. If you're healthy, it's not dangerous.

Quoted message said:

Anyway when I ride if I cruise I can sit on around 60% max.

If I try to do a constant 40k's an hour my HR climbs dramatically to 95% and
touching 100 % even though I don't feel completely stuffed.
My question is, am I risking something serious by riding at 95% for long
distances, is it causing damage to my Heart.

No, unless there's already something wrong with it. If you have any doubts,
you should have it checked out.

--
Home page: http://members.westnet.com.au/mvw

Paul said:

I am 43 years old, and love to ride.
My question is at my age my MHR should be about 177 right ?
Anyway when I ride if I cruise I can sit on around 60% max.

If I try to do a constant 40k's an hour my HR climbs dramatically to 95% and
touching 100 % even though I don't feel completely stuffed.
My question is, am I risking something serious by riding at 95% for long
distances, is it causing damage to my Heart.
I feel if I sit in at about my Max comfort zone of 75% I am not really
working hard.
Thanks for any feedback.

There is a pretty wide confidence interval around the old 220-age formula. It is quite probable that your MHR is much higher than 177. It is unlikely that riding for long periods around that level is doing damage, but it's pretty important to look after your heart. 43 is not all that old, but it's a good age to get the full once-over from your doctor to pick problems up early, including potential heart problems. This is important, especially if you're considering some maximal stress testing...

If you're riding consistently at 40km/h solo, you're doing better than alright (imho).

Ritch

So can anyone recommend someone I can get a fitness test under safe
supervision from, like max HR ect ect . In Brisbane that is.
Cheers
"Michael Warner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Paul said:

I am 43 years old, and love to ride.
My question is at my age my MHR should be about 177 right?

Not necessarily - the standard formula can be way off for some people.
You need to go absolutely flat out up a hill and see how high you can push
it. If you're healthy, it's not dangerous.

Quoted message said:

Anyway when I ride if I cruise I can sit on around 60% max.

If I try to do a constant 40k's an hour my HR climbs dramatically to 95%

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

touching 100 % even though I don't feel completely stuffed.
My question is, am I risking something serious by riding at 95% for long
distances, is it causing damage to my Heart.

No, unless there's already something wrong with it. If you have any

doubts,

Quoted message said:

you should have it checked out.

--
Home page: http://members.westnet.com.au/mvw

Paul said:

So can anyone recommend someone I can get a fitness test under safe
supervision from, like max HR ect ect . In Brisbane that is.
Cheers
"Michael Warner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Well funny you should ask. I was reading an article on this in Triathlon
and MultiSport mag about Wesley Corporate Health in brisbane that does
just that sort of thing. Now can someone suggest somewhere in melb that
does the same thing?

DaveB

DaveB said:

Paul said:

So can anyone recommend someone I can get a fitness test under safe
supervision from, like max HR ect ect . In Brisbane that is.
Cheers
"Michael Warner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Well funny you should ask. I was reading an article on this in Triathlon
and MultiSport mag about Wesley Corporate Health in brisbane that does
just that sort of thing. Now can someone suggest somewhere in melb that
does the same thing?

DaveB

And if I'd looked closely at the article I'd have seen the ad on the
page as well.

The Peak performance Lab
(07) 3870 3027

www.weshealth.com.au

DaveB

DaveB said:

Paul wrote:
snip......

Now can someone suggest somewhere in melb that does the same thing?

DaveB

In Melbourne- Hilton Clarke & Rick Leonard ( Joel's Dad) can do it at the Carnegie CC ErgoTraining/velodrome centre .......usually there during the week from 2-6pm Mon & Wed, (maybe more) ( call Rick on 0409 411 619) , they also do LT and AT Tests too, costs over $100 though.

Paul said:

I am 43 years old, and love to ride.
My question is at my age my MHR should be about 177 right ?

Yes, and you're 175cm tall, and have 1.8 children.
220 - age is an average. By the sounds of it, if you're
punting along at 40km/h at around 175bpm, 177 isn't your
HRmax.

Quoted message said:

Anyway when I ride if I cruise I can sit on around 60% max.

If I try to do a constant 40k's an hour my HR climbs dramatically to 95% and
touching 100 % even though I don't feel completely stuffed.
My question is, am I risking something serious by riding at 95% for long
distances, is it causing damage to my Heart.
I feel if I sit in at about my Max comfort zone of 75% I am not really
working hard.

Ewan makes some very good points, which are spot-on the money. I'd
suggest
you get your HRmax tested, and at 43, that you do so under medical
supervision. Michael Warner suggests you try to flog yourself
up a hill, I'd suggest that you don't do that, although you
might get close to HRmax, you won't get it exactly, and if you
do, you may faint etc, and you don't want that happening on
the road. It's generally good practice to do a HRmax test
with supervision, on a spinner or some other fixed bicycle. At
ages >40, with an ECG hooked up to you. You're going to be
pushing your body to its maximum, and it can react in bad ways!

Ewan also talks a little about what HR zones to work in, and
again, he's pretty well spot on (esp about what's known in
Australia as E2, or "no mans land"😉. You can see the HR zones
that most coaches in Australia will be using here :

http://www.aboc.com.au/perl/hrcalc.pl

He's also right when he says not to be a slave to your heartrate,
it's a useful secondary indicator of how hard you're working, but it's
not something to get fixated on.

You talk about working hard, this is an interesting question, as
you have to ask what is it you're training and why? I'd suggest
getting a book on structured training (or at least, on heart
rate training in general). It's a disturbingly common misunderstanding
to think that you have to train "hard" to get fitter. In general,
many cyclists ride too hard most of the time, and are in a constant
state of overtraining. Many of my riders are working far too hard
when I start with them, and we see some pretty rapid improvements in
their race-day performances when they start to ride easy and do
occasional, structured hard rides, rather than flogging themselves
every day.

DaveB said:

Paul said:

So can anyone recommend someone I can get a fitness test under safe
supervision from, like max HR ect ect . In Brisbane that is.
Cheers
"Michael Warner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Well funny you should ask. I was reading an article on this in Triathlon
and MultiSport mag about Wesley Corporate Health in brisbane that does
just that sort of thing. Now can someone suggest somewhere in melb that
does the same thing?

I've recommended in the past Simon Sostaric from VU in
Footscray - I believe he's now charging $200 for a full
skinfold/VO2max/lactate/HRmax test. As rooman says,
HC can do it, I've done it for my clients as well, but just HRmax, not
the full VO2max test etc. Epworth also do it, have a look for their
ad in BA or Ride I think? and maybe someone at Monash is doing it too?
Most coaches can do a HRmax test, and you can do it yourself if you
have a spin trainer and a HRM and a friend with a cattle prod and
some first aid experience, just to be safe 🙂

One protocol to follow to do is this:

On a spinner, with a friend with a cattle prod and a whip ... standing
by ...

Warm up in E1 for 15 or so mins, then set a cadence of around 95rpm
or so, and increase your resistance a bit every 1.5-2 mins until you
can't go any harder at that cadence, then stand and sprint for
30seconds with
your friend flaying you with the whip while applying the cattle prod to
your
testicles. Record HR just as you feel like dying. Spin down easily
to E1 for 10-15 mins. Eat/drink sugar.

Do this well rested, not after a big ride.

Remember, a HRmax test is *not* a fitness test, and a max HR
is not of any use to compare with anyone else's as any kind of
indicator
of fitness or athletic potential (except in extreme cases, where
there's
something wrong with the test subject).

quote='Bleve'DaveB said:

Paul said:

So can anyone recommend someone I can get a fitness test under safe
supervision from, like max HR ect ect . In Brisbane that is.
Cheers
"Michael Warner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Well funny you should ask. I was reading an article on this in Triathlon
and MultiSport mag about Wesley Corporate Health in brisbane that does
just that sort of thing. Now can someone suggest somewhere in melb that
does the same thing?

I've recommended in the past Simon Sostaric from VU in
Footscray - I believe he's now charging $200 for a full
skinfold/VO2max/lactate/HRmax test. As rooman says,
HC can do it, I've done it for my clients as well, but just HRmax, not
the full VO2max test etc. Epworth also do it, have a look for their
ad in BA or Ride I think? and maybe someone at Monash is doing it too?
Most coaches can do a HRmax test, and you can do it yourself if you
have a spin trainer and a HRM and a friend with a cattle prod and
some first aid experience, just to be safe 🙂

One protocol to follow to do is this:

On a spinner, with a friend with a cattle prod and a whip ... standing
by ...

Warm up in E1 for 15 or so mins, then set a cadence of around 95rpm
or so, and increase your resistance a bit every 1.5-2 mins until you
can't go any harder at that cadence, then stand and sprint for
30seconds with
your friend flaying you with the whip while applying the cattle prod to
your
testicles. Record HR just as you feel like dying. Spin down easily
to E1 for 10-15 mins. Eat/drink sugar.

Do this well rested, not after a big ride.

Remember, a HRmax test is *not* a fitness test, and a max HR
is not of any use to compare with anyone else's as any kind of
indicator
of fitness or athletic potential (except in extreme cases, where
there's
something wrong with the test subject).[/QUOTE]
and to keep things totally in perspective, I have also found I can get my heart rate up very high, just by laying down on the bed...... and I dare, someone to own up on here, to say they have had the heart rate monitor on!!

I think that would have to fall into the fetish category, or both of the people involved were triathletes

On 2005-08-14, MikeyOz (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:

Quoted message said:

and to keep things totally in perspective, I have also found I can get
my heart rate up very high, just by laying down on the bed...... and I
dare, someone to own up on here, to say they have had the heart rate
monitor on!!

"Honey -- lets go for it."

Quoted message said:

"But the doctors will know!"

"Yeah! That was the idea!"

Quoted message said:

I think that would have to fall into the fetish category, or both of
the people involved were triathletes

Is that what triathletes do?

--
TimC
#define FUZZ 0.0001 /*author: Marc Goodman in ARK*/
float BogoSqrt(float in) { float out;
do { out=(rand()/(float)0x7fff)-0x8000;
} while((out*out)<in-FUZZ || (out*out)>in+FUZZ); return(out); }

MikeyOz said:

and to keep things totally in perspective, I have also found I can get
my heart rate up very high, just by laying down on the bed...... and I
dare, someone to own up on here, to say they have had the heart rate
monitor on!!

err, I confess 🙂

Quoted message said:

I think that would have to fall into the fetish category, or both of
the people involved were triathletes

It helps to have coded transmitters.

MikeyOz said:

and to keep things totally in perspective, I have also found I can get my heart rate up very high, just by laying down on the bed...... and I dare, someone to own up on here, to say they have had the heart rate monitor on!!

I think that would have to fall into the fetish category, or both of the people involved were triathletes

perspective? 🙄

and you just owned up to it on here.

and what do you mean 'both people' ?
are you pschyzophrenic?
dual-personality?
Does the 'other' you die on the hills?
(he can come along on another BR 😄) 🙄

HellenWheels said:

On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:22:12 +1000, Carl Brewer <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Symptoms of overtraining include, but aren't limited to :

elevated resting heartrate
weight loss
lack of motivation
lack of top-end speed
repeated illness
lack of apetite

I have none of those symptoms. Though there are days when my legs don't
have much 'pop', so I ride those to the best of my ability. That's what I
use as a gauge. In order to have hypercompensation, you have to vary the
stress, but keep it high enough so the organism has to adapt.

Very true.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Everyone's different, and applying general principles to individuals
in such a way that they work is one of the arts of good coaching.

Check. I'm just trying to get a handle on what you mean when you say:

"It's a disturbingly common misunderstanding to think that you have to
train "hard" to get fitter. In general, many cyclists ride too hard most
of the time, and are in a constant state of overtraining. Many of my
riders are working far too hard"

You suggest getting a book, and I have read Joel's books, but a book can't
ask a question about the meaning of something you said.

Are you talking about hard-core Class A racers, who do 500 miles a week? Or
are you talking about recreational cyclists who do 100-200 miles a week?

Both.

My experience is with non-elite level riders, but the general concensus
amongst the other coaches I talk to and from the theory is that
as a group, racing cyclists are amongst the most prone to
overtraining, especially in mild climate places where it's possible
to race and train all year.

Quoted message said:

Or are you talking about perceived exertion? On a scale of 1-10, it's
sounds like you're saying most cyclists train at an '8' and they can
improve faster if they train at a '5'. I'm just requesting a little
clarification if it's not too much trouble. ;-)

Maybe not an 8, but that's the gist of it, sort of. Basically,
you need a combination of high intensity work and longer,
easier endurance work. How that splits up depends on the
type of races you're preparing for and where you are in
a program. There are some levels of intensity that
aren't much use (we call E2 no-mans land, as an example),
the definitions used for HR zones in Australia are here :

http://www.aboc.com.au/perl/hrcalc.pl

Many riders spend far too much time in E2, which doesn't
really benefit them more than E1, but takes significantly longer to
recover from. They feel that E1 isn't hard enough, but they're
missing the point of E1.

So, I'm saying both cases are true, in my experience. By how you
describe your training, with hard efforts over short hills, you're
doing essentially fartlek work, which is good, as long as you
give yourself enough recovery time. You're probably not
building up a great level of aerobic capacity, but lots of
strength-endurance.
Depending on what you're training for, that may be just fine.

Quoted message said:

OK, I'll look over Joel's book. Again, just asking a few friendly
questions. Don't mean to put your coaching prowess on the line, or make you
overgeneralize.

Not a problem, I'm just trying to be accurate and not misleading.

Bleve said:

There are some levels of intensity that
aren't much use (we call E2 no-mans land, as an example),
the definitions used for HR zones in Australia are here :

http://www.aboc.com.au/perl/hrcalc.pl

Many riders spend far too much time in E2, which doesn't
really benefit them more than E1, but takes significantly longer to
recover from. They feel that E1 isn't hard enough, but they're
missing the point of E1.

Oh, oh, ok, I'm on board now. Yeah. Uh, right now, I'm trying to get to the
point where I can ride all the routes around my area and adjacent
country-side. 90% of the terrain is as I described it - you can't find more
than a quarter-mile of flat road around here unless you're riding down Main
Street and that's a no-go - much too developed, too many lights. So, for
me, though the effort matters and I'd rather not be riding at a level
that's harder to recover from than necessary (with little extra benefit),
so I'm glad I got clear on that.

The challenge is to be able to ride the dozen or so routes here that are
quite tough, lots of circuits that include about 15-20 hills at 5% and each
a half-mile to a mile in length. Then I'll certainly start increasing the
distance. I'd -much- rather concentrate on distance, but with no flat
routes it's impossible to get distance without fairly strong
strength-endurance to handle the hills.

Quoted message said:

So, I'm saying both cases are true, in my experience. By how you
describe your training, with hard efforts over short hills, you're
doing essentially fartlek work, which is good, as long as you
give yourself enough recovery time. You're probably not
building up a great level of aerobic capacity, but lots of
strength-endurance.
Depending on what you're training for, that may be just fine.

Quoted message said:

OK, I'll look over Joel's book. Again, just asking a few friendly
questions. Don't mean to put your coaching prowess on the line, or make you
overgeneralize.

Not a problem, I'm just trying to be accurate and not misleading.

Thanks for the clarification. I'm with ya, now. Thanks for that link and
I'll look into the E2, E1 problem.

-Wheels.

quote='Bleve'MikeyOz said:

and to keep things totally in perspective, I have also found I can get
my heart rate up very high, just by laying down on the bed...... and I
dare, someone to own up on here, to say they have had the heart rate
monitor on!!

err, I confess 🙂

Quoted message said:

I think that would have to fall into the fetish category, or both of
the people involved were triathletes

It helps to have coded transmitters.[/QUOTE]

Nothing out of the ordinary there. Now, wearing your neoprene cycling booties in the same situation, that's a bit more dodgy 😄

SteveA

SteveA said:

Quoted message said:

It helps to have coded transmitters.

Nothing out of the ordinary there. Now, wearing your neoprene cycling
booties in the same situation, that's a bit more dodgy 😄

Sounds like a sheet for a new TiSM video.

Diving fins, cricket pads ... let's go!