Have they seen the light?

Just zis Guy, you know? scribed after much navel searching:

Quoted message said:

Unexpected email this afternoon:

Quoted message said:

Dear Mr Chapman

Following your interest in our previous consultation on proposals to amend the Pedal Bicycles
(Safety) Regulations, I believe that you might have an interest in other proposals applying to
pedal cycles.

I have therefore attached for your information, a copy of our consultation document on proposals
to amend the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations to permit pedal cycles to be fitted with optional
front and rear position lamps which flash, in addition to the existing obligatory front and rear
steady lamps.

The proposals will also consider red facing flashing lamps on breakdown vehicles and sirens and
blue warning beacons on certain Custom and Excise vehicles.

Regards

Alison Alleyne VSE4 Department for Transport 76 Marsham Street London SW1A 4DR Tel: 0207 944 2062
Fax:0207 944

I guess the paper is on the DfT website - they usually are; any of you who are interested should
also be able to comment (this would alos be normal).

Imagine - flashing lights made legal, perhaps in our own lifetimes. Who would have thought it, eh?

--
Guy
===
I wonder if you wouldn't mind piecing out our imperfections with your thoughts; and while you're
about it perhaps you could think when we talk of bicycles, that you see them printing their proud
wheels i' the receiving earth; thanks awfully.

I was under the impression that flashing lights were already "not illegal" as long as they were
always used in conjunction with "proper" lights!

Quoted message said:

Imagine - flashing lights made legal, perhaps in our own lifetimes. Who would have thought it, eh?

I use a rear Cateye LED, mostly in flashing mode [mainly to get a longer life from the battery
lol...so 'they' say], but I'm not convinced of their effectiveness over a decent bright LED that
emits a continuous light. Obviously the 'flash' is designed to 'catch the eye' of the driver,
which is probably does, but I also think that this same flash is also kind of hazardous as far
as car driving goes. Certainly when I'm behind the wheel and get behind a cyclist who is riding
with a flashing LED [and another on the back of the helmet, and another on the back-pack :-], it
has the effect of continually drawing your attention to the light, almost like a strobe, in a
kind of hypnotic way, that can have the effect of distracting you from what you're supposed to
be concentrating on - the ROAD and what's in FRONT of you, and that is NOT in the interest of
the cyclist.

Point is, as a car driver [always useful to be a car driver when you cycle, IMO], the most important
thing is 'seeing' the cyclist in the first place. Once you've 'eyed' the cyclist, then you're taking
him/her into account in your maneuvers right away, you don't need to see them again - just like any
other traffic 'object' in front of you. I'm not convinced a flashing LED is anymore useful than an
LED in full light mode. It's about the strength of the light more than anything else. I've also been
amazed too sometimes, how effective reflectors can be. Quite often I've been behind a cyclist with a
rear reflector that can glow like a light, only to see it fade as I pass.

Anyway, just felt like saying it. And no, I don't think everybody should ride in continuous
LED mode LOL!

Relax, for heavens sake :-)

bob

In message <[email hidden]>, Bob Flemming
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Imagine - flashing lights made legal, perhaps in our own lifetimes. Who would have thought it, eh?

I use a rear Cateye LED, mostly in flashing mode [mainly to get a longer life from the battery
lol...so 'they' say], but I'm not convinced of their effectiveness over a decent bright LED that
emits a continuous light. Obviously the 'flash' is designed to 'catch the eye' of the driver, which
is probably does, but I also think that this same flash is also kind of hazardous as far as car
driving goes.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

I certainly don't like flashing LEDS and no other light showing. Not because I think it is
distracting, but I think that it can be confusing esp. in a busy road environment. Mostly I think
the problem is that although you may spot the light the flashing intermittent nature of the light
makes it hard to place and to be sure of distance.

There may be some benefit in terms of being noticed as an addition to a fixed light , but I
certainly wouldn't use it alone. One advantage nowadays is they are so common on bikes, horse and
runners etc. that a flashing red light has probably acquired the unofficial meaning of indicating a
'slower' vehicle ahead.

Personally I'm happy with one or two good fixed rear lights. Though the trailer has 3 LED lights and
I sometimes put the centre one on flash. Certainly I notice that cars tend to slow down in plenty of
time before the overetake - possibly because they see all the lights first, and aren't quite sure
what it is they are aproaching.
--
Chris French, Leeds

I'm coming to the conclusion it's not just about lights. I saw a horse last night. Not a light in
sight but the horse had a fluorescent saddle blanket and the rider was wearing all sorts of high viz
bits, including helmet. All very visible.

Conversely you see so many cyclists, whether with or without effective lighting, wearing dark
clothes which makes them much less visible.

Gordon BP said:

I was under the impression that flashing lights were already "not illegal" as long as they were
always used in conjunction with "proper" lights!

According to the Road Vehicle Lighting Regs they are not legal, certainly not at the front and I
think not at the rear either.

--
Guy
===
I wonder if you wouldn't mind piecing out our imperfections with your thoughts; and while you're
about it perhaps you could think when we talk of bicycles, that you see them printing their proud
wheels i' the receiving earth; thanks awfully.

"Bob Flemming" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I use a rear Cateye LED, mostly in flashing mode [mainly to get a longer life from the battery
lol...so 'they' say], but I'm not convinced of their effectiveness over a decent bright LED that
emits a continuous light.

I've got a cateye LD600 which has various flashing modes, but I always use a non-flashing mode as I
think it is safer. I have noticed that these cyclists with just a flashing light it's hard to tell
the distance ahead they are as easily. Also I think that many motorists see a flashing LED and think
"slow cyclist ahead - must overtake at any cost". The constant LED light could be interpreted as a
moped which many motorists would take more care to overtake than a cyclist. My LD600 used to eat
batteries pretty fast in "constant" mode, so the answer no is to use AAA rechargables like I do for
my MC200 front light (AA).

Bob Flemming said:

I use a rear Cateye LED, mostly in flashing mode [mainly to get a longer life from the battery
lol...so 'they' say], but I'm not convinced of their effectiveness over a decent bright LED that
emits a continuous light.

The DfT, I think it was, did some research which showed that a flashing light was between 3 and
5 times more visible than a steady light of the same brightness. Hence I use both. Or rather,
two of each.

Guy
===
** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. chapmancentral.comchapmancentral.comOpen ↗ (BT ADSL and
dynamic DNS permitting)
NOTE: BT Openworld have now blocked port 25 (without notice), so old mail addresses may no longer
work. Apologies.

Graham Harrison said:

Conversely you see so many cyclists, whether with or without effective lighting, wearing dark
clothes which makes them much less visible.

That's so cagers can't aim at the so easily.

Guy
===
** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. chapmancentral.comchapmancentral.comOpen ↗ (BT ADSL and
dynamic DNS permitting)
NOTE: BT Openworld have now blocked port 25 (without notice), so old mail addresses may no longer
work. Apologies.

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Gordon BP said:

I was under the impression that flashing lights were already "not illegal" as long as they were
always used in conjunction with "proper" lights!

According to the Road Vehicle Lighting Regs they are not legal, certainly not at the front and I
think not at the rear either.

They are legal so long as they are not attached to your bike (i.e OK on your jacket) and your bike
also has constant lamps fitted.

--
Simon Mason Anlaby East Yorkshire. 53°44'N 0°26'W simonmason.karoo.netsimonmason.karoo.netOpen ↗

In "]news:[email hidden], Adrian Boliston <[email hidden]> typed:

Quoted message said:

I've got a cateye LD600 which has various flashing modes, but I always use a non-flashing mode as
I think it is safer. I have noticed that these cyclists with just a flashing light it's hard to
tell the distance ahead they are as easily.

I tend to use the steady mode on my LED lamps (front and back) - and the cells still last as long.
The front LED is more a backup for the 10/2.4W double headlamp in case the storage battery runs down
in the middle of a ride.

I find the spillover light from the front LED a bit disorientating in flashing mode anyway, to the
point of even feeling unwell (perhaps I am just sensitive to this - the same happens with duff
striplights in the office, and certain frequencies of strobe lights at discos/raves)

Alex

you know? said:

Bob Flemming said:

I use a rear Cateye LED, mostly in flashing mode [mainly to get a longer life from the battery
lol...so 'they' say], but I'm not convinced of their effectiveness over a decent bright LED that
emits a continuous light.

The DfT, I think it was, did some research which showed that a flashing light was between 3 and
5 times more visible than a steady light of the same brightness. Hence I use both. Or rather,
two of each.

I'd be interested to read more on that. Got a url handy?

My understanding, picked up by osmosis, was that determining the position of the flashing light is
harder as the brain has to "join the dots". Could be a load of tosh, though.

Tim
--
fast and gripping, non pompous, glossy and credible.

Simon Mason said:

They are legal so long as they are not attached to your bike (i.e OK on your jacket) and your
bike also has constant lamps fitted.

Thanks. I knew it was something like that, but my relevant link is at home. You can put whatever
you like on your person, of course. Well, within reason, obviously (oh bugger, another paving
slab thread).

--
Guy
===
I wonder if you wouldn't mind piecing out our imperfections with your thoughts; and while you're
about it perhaps you could think when we talk of bicycles, that you see them printing their proud
wheels i' the receiving earth; thanks awfully.

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Simon Mason said:

They are legal so long as they are not attached to your bike (i.e OK on your jacket) and your
bike also has constant lamps fitted.

Thanks. I knew it was something like that, but my relevant link is at

home.

Quoted message said:

You can put whatever you like on your person, of course. Well, within reason, obviously (oh
bugger, another paving slab thread).

According to CTC ...

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Simon Mason said:

They are legal so long as they are not attached to your bike (i.e OK on your jacket) and your
bike also has constant lamps fitted.

Thanks. I knew it was something like that, but my relevant link is at

home.

Quoted message said:

You can put whatever you like on your person, of course. Well, within reason, obviously (oh
bugger, another paving slab thread).

--

Flashers

Flashing lights are not presently allowed to be mounted on a cycle, except for direction indicators
(which must comply with the appropriate standards as per motorcycles). However a recent, hastily
withdrawn edition of the Highway Code directly contradicted this by recommending that cyclists fit
flashing lights in addition to the legally required ones! So official opposition to flashers appears
to be crumbling and has always left a few loopholes. The law does not say if a person sitting on a
vehicle, or luggage attached to it, is part of the vehicle or not. So it’s very much a matter of
opinion as to whether flashing lights worn by a cyclist (or triangular reflective patches on
panniers) are legal or not. Police attitudes vary from a ticking off to congratulation upon having
“such a brilliant flashing light sir”!

ctc.org.ukeditorial display.aspOpen ↗

Tony W said:

The read LED's I use weigh less than 50g so weight is hardly a consideration. I think it is worth
having a couple -- if for no other reason their is some redundancy if one fails.

I agree, it's perfectly resonable for sensible people to use more than one rear LED!

I don't bother because....
1. I think one makes me visable enough (perhaps I'm fooling myself?). I do have a rear
reflector as well.
2. I have to rig up special brackets because seatpost is taken up with seatpost rack. Would be
a pain to do another one with my particular setup.
3. Extra running cost of batteries. Yes they can last a long time, but I like to change mine
just as they start getting dim, not linger on with fading batts for ages. (Rechargeables
might be an option, not sure if a good one).
4. Cost of light in the first place (not much but then I've always got tons of other cycling
things to buy at any one time).
5. One more thing to get in the way and go wrong and take care of. I like the minimal approach
with my road bike. Perhaps this is the real number one reason. I've got less/no excuse with
the tourer.
6. Weight and aerodynamics. Am I joking? ...No comment ;-)

Small reasons, but they all add up.

~PB

"Adrian Boliston" <[email hidden]> wrote: ( "Bob Flemming" <[email hidden]> wrote
... ) > I use a rear Cateye LED, mostly in flashing mode [mainly to get a ( > longer life from the
battery lol...so 'they' say], but I'm not ) > convinced of their effectiveness over a decent bright
LED that emits a ( > continuous light. ) ( I've got a cateye LD600 which has various flashing modes,
but I always use a ) non-flashing mode as I think it is safer. I have noticed that these ( cyclists
with just a flashing light it's hard to tell the distance ahead ) they are as easily. ...

It seems that the apparent brightness of flashing LEDs is largely determined by the peak current (so
long as the duty cycle is not too extreme). This is in part because unlike filament lamps they do
not need to "warm up" every time they flash. But of course the power consumption is determined by
the average current. That is why flashing LEDs seem to be brighter than you would expect by
averaging out the brightness over a cycle. What I do not know, and do not know whether there is
adequate experimental evidence about, is whether this apparent brightness is reflected in ability to
draw attention. If it were, then flashing at a higher frequency should ease the problem of making it
difficult to judge distances - something which is severly limited when the flashing rate is
significant at the speeds which eyes jump about.

In message <[email hidden]>, Tim Hall
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

you know? said:

Bob Flemming said:

I use a rear Cateye LED, mostly in flashing mode [mainly to get a longer life from the battery
lol...so 'they' say], but I'm not convinced of their effectiveness over a decent bright LED that
emits a continuous light.

The DfT, I think it was, did some research which showed that a flashing light was between 3 and 5
times more visible than a steady light of the same brightness. Hence I use both. Or rather, two
of each.

I'd be interested to read more on that. Got a url handy?

Possible research that showed flashing lights are more visible was mentioned in the CTC rag
recently, but no figures and been published by the Gov.

Quoted message said:

My understanding, picked up by osmosis, was that determining the position of the flashing light is
harder as the brain has to "join the dots". Could be a load of tosh, though.

Certainly that is my feeling from my own observations, but I expect it will vary from person to
person depending on their visual perception etc.

Of course both these things are compatible. It's quite possible to notice a flashing light and also
to be unsure of it's position say, or relative speed etc.
--
Chris French, Leeds

"Bob Flemming" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I use a rear Cateye LED, mostly in flashing mode [mainly to get a longer life from the battery
lol...so 'they' say], but I'm not convinced of their effectiveness over a decent bright LED that
emits a continuous light. Obviously the 'flash' is designed to 'catch the eye' of the driver,
which is probably does, but I also think that this same flash is also kind of hazardous as far as
car driving goes. Certainly when I'm behind the wheel and get behind a cyclist who is riding with
a flashing LED [and another on the back of the helmet, and another on the back-pack :-], it has
the effect of continually drawing your attention to the light, almost like a strobe, in a kind of
hypnotic way, that can have the effect of distracting you from what you're supposed to be
concentrating on - the ROAD and what's in FRONT of you, and that is NOT in the interest of the
cyclist.

snip

You make a valid point. Flashing lights do draw the eye. They may also be more difficult to
precisely locate. But, as cyclists, we have to appreciate that we often do not fit into the standard
flow of traffic -- we are often slower than the surrounding vehicles and taking a somewhat different
line to them -- and that we have great difficult putting up an equivalent amount of light to cars,
lorries and motorbikes with their huge batteries and massive power capabilities.

As a motorist I like flashing lights on bikes. A flasher screams bike and, once clocked appropriate
action can be taken.

Yes, the flashing can distract -- so can a lot of other things (from strange vehicles, drivers doing
stupid things, advertising hoardings to pretty girls in tight jeans) and road users have to tune
these out. Much better to know there is a cyclist there than suddenly become aware of a cyclist
dressed in ninja black, unlit and mysterious until you are about to cream him.

As a cyclist I will continue to use one steady and one flashing light, front and back, after dark.

T

Just zis Guy said:

The DfT, I think it was, did some research which showed that a flashing light was between 3 and 5
times more visible than a steady light of the same brightness.

But much harder to estimate the distance.
--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 650 3085 School of Artificial Intelligence, Division of
Informatics Edinburgh University, 5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK
[dai.ed.ac.ukcamOpen ↗ ] DoD #205