Handlebar over front axle....

Hi George (again)🙂

It seems you and I ponder over very similar things (see frame size thread).

I am hardly a hardened roadie but after owning a roadbike for a few years, in the last year, I have been tinkering with the set up and think I have it just about spot on now (although I'm sure I will continue to tinker).

Last year, I swapped my 120 stem for a 110 as the bike just "felt a bit long" although looking back it was probably a bit low at the bars more than anything. However, this gave me the "bars over hub" position you refer too when on the hoods.

I then raised my bars by flipping the stem.

After doing some bike fit calcs on line, I have also raised my saddle a couple of cm to get the correct height for my leg length. This now puts my bars at about 8 cm below saddle height which I am happy with. (It was about 11cm originally, even with the saddle a couple of cm lower- a bit extreme for me!)

Also, a few months ago, I tilted my bars up a little which raised the hoods by about 1 cm. I previously ran them with the drop horizontal to the ground. I noticed that others were running them tilted upwards slightly and then I read somewhere that you should set them so that the drop bar "points" roughly to your rear brakes. What this acheives is an almost flat hood position with campy which for me gives a much more comfortable position on the hoods. (previously, I think I was leaning a bit too far forward which created pressure in the arc between thumb and forefinger after a short while "on the hoods"😉.
The by product of this is that it gives a slightly longer position in the drops as the bars are tilted slightly away from you in this position. This also seems to work well for me. The only slight drawback I have noticed is that it makes gearshifts slightly more awkward when in the drops, but nothing major.

I have also noticed a big difference in the profile of the hoods between campy and shimano. Basically, shimano hoods appear bigger and stick up more which basically translates (I think) to the positioning of shimano hoods perhaps not being quite so crucial as on campy (less degree for error/ discomfort). Still, I prefer the look of campy and will be sticking with it.

My final adjustment in the last week or so (after doing the bik fit calc suggested by you) was to move my saddle back about 1cm. This has given me a leg position of knee a couple of cm behind pedal spindle (a la eddy fit) which I also quite like.

Anyway, I've rambled more than I intended so I'll let some real roadies let us know how it should be done (and maybe find out I've got it all wrong after all)😄 . Still, my position on the bike feels a lot better than it did a year or so ago😉

Kind regards

Darren

Hi Darren,
Thanks for your comments. I wonder if we are related?...lol. Are you an engineer like myself?...a compulsive urge to tinker. Isn't it remarkable how changing anything be it seat, bars, levers etc by 1cm makes a big difference? I have attached the web pic of my new bike to show how the factory sets up the drop bar and hood position. The norm is with the drop pointing at the rear axle or there abouts as you say...looks like the factory position is just above that. That position does indeed make it a longer reach to the drops as the drop handles are moved a bit lower and forward when rotating the drop ends down a bit from horizontal. On top however is slightly higher which moves the levers up however if positioned to factory spec the Campy hoods are still angled down at front which I agree is less than ideal. Have a look at the pic of the Campy levers postioned as the factory intended on my bike. The plane of the hoods is indeed rotated forward which is a sharp contrast from many Shimano set ups out there with radiused hoods. I agree with you...I don't care for the hood sloping forward position. Mine are actually pointing a hint rearward now...yes a compromise when shifting from the drops...am experimenting without bar tape. Likely I will migrate to your position of drop ends pointing to the rear hub or between there and horizontal as per factory spec and then pushing the levers up a bit on the bar to make the hoods level with the ground as it seems as mentioned when trying to replicate the Shimano position too much pressure is translated to the heels of each hand.
Thanks for sharing your perspective!
George

Hi George

Here's a piccy of my bike (hope it works, it's my first attempt at posting a pic).

Anyway, bars tilted upwards/ forwards slightly so drops point roughly towards rear brake. In actual fact you are right, this does make for a slightly backward sloping hood. It creates a kind of "flat area" when you combine the bars and hoods which I now find very comfortable compared to the bar position shown on your factory set up picture. (that's how I used to have mine).

By the way, I'm not an engineer, I'm in financial services (could call it financial engineering)🙂 but I am very analytical and yes I do like to tinker! My (almost) 3 year old son seems to be going the same way too- always taking things to bits/ fiddling with stuff. Might make a cyclist out of him yet? My daughter (age 6) has just learned to ride her bike with no stabilisers in the last week or so. Great to see😄

Cheers for now

Darren

Nice bike Darren. Believe your handlebars are about right in terms of std. convention where they point. Visualize something for me. You are running a pretty aggressive set up in terms of your frame size relative to your body size...showing a lot of post. The natural tendency is to want to get the bars up a bit if not a racer as most of us are recreational riders. This can be accomplished by raising the hoods on the bars a bit. There is a downside however. With your hoods up higher you will now translate more stress to the bottom or heel of your hand because you have taken out the natural curve of the bars which closely profiles the concave palm side of the hand. If you look at the pic of my bike the radius of the bar behind the hoods follows the hand shape with the hoods set more neutrally if not a bit forward...which lowers the hood/riding position. Which BTW also affects the std. convention of bars obscuring the front hub...why I mentioned it earlier. You like myself may end up switching back to the factory position before its all over...I am leaning this way. A good test is to unravel the tape on one of your bars...and move the hood down to a more conventional position and compare the comfort level of respective positons. Also, while riding your bike on the hoods with natural elbow position...now increase the elbow bend by 10 degrees or so. This will dramatically influence the std. of the hub being covered by the bars....why that convention is only a reference because it is greatly influenced by how high your seat is relative to your bars which not only affects reach but line of sight. Lastly...pretty cool about your son. Father like son...the apple doesn't fall from the tree. You are a lucky man to have a boy and a girl 🙂.
Cheers,
George

OK boys, I'm jumping into this thread. As an owner of 4 road bikes I often look at the bars in relation to each other with a similar thought. George, fyi I'm a software engineer... Anyway, what I seem to prefer and have seen a bunch is that when looking at the bike from the side, the very tip of the bars is just ever so slightly rearward (10mm or so) of the axis of the stem and bar. I enjoy the very low position while hammering in the drops. Hoods seem to be maybe 30mm about the the aforementioned stem/bar axis. Works for me, at least it isn't a pain, but as we have previously discussed I have agressive setups on my rides. I think stem length needs to be combined with top tube for a full seat tube to stem center measurement. On my Klein I run a 100mm stem, but the top tube is custom length being 20mm longer. Other bikes are 110 (2) and 120 smallish compact Litespeed. Kinda all even themselves out.

The only time I had a 130mm stem was on a tri bike. Being that far out in front, with a straight blade fork, made the steering a bit "twitchy" at high speeds.

Good reference on the 10mm Cap...believe that is pretty typical and about what Darren is running by the looks of his bars. I run just a bit more which brings my bars back and up a shade. As to a 130mm stem making a bike a bit twitchy...typically a long stem will slow steering not make it twitchy. Probably more a function of that straight blade fork you mention.
Thanks for your input.
George

Hi George and welcome capwater to the discussion.

George, I think I know what you are saying but I really do find my current set up more comfortable then when I had the hoods lower down the bars.

I've thought about this and I think this is the reason why...

despite my stem being flipped to raise the bars, my saddle is still 8cm above the bars which as you point out is still quite agressive. (this is due to frame being fitted for length rather than height as previously discussed). What I found was, with the hoods lower down the bars and the hoods sloping forward slightly, that when on the hoods, my hands slipped down the bars/ hoods and forward in to the bit that sticks up at the front. This put all the weight on the arc between thumb and forefinger which resulted in dicomfort for me.

The higher and slightly backward sloping position I now have means the bars/ hoods represents a flat/ slightly concave area which I find provides a comfortable grip, with even weight distribution, and no slipping forward in to the "sticky up bit" at the front of the hoods.

That said, if my saddle to bars difference was less, then the bar position with hoods lower down could be more comfortable as you point out, because my arms/ hands would be coming at it from a shallower angle.

Perhaps, the "hoods up" position provides a comfortable position when the set up is agressive with more than say 3 inch of difference between bar and saddle height, and the "hoods down" bar position is more comfortable when the saddle/ bar difference is not so pronounced? Just a theory but as a tester........

If you are leaning back towards "hoods down" as you find it more comfortable, what is your saddle to bars drop? Is it less agressive than my own.

Anyway, this is all getting very deep and at the end of the day, we should all go with what we are most comfortable with, and get on and ride😄 I would be interested to hear your reply to my question though.

The answer is Darren you are simply correct and I might add a very astute observation. You are coming from up higher relative to your hood position than I as there is only a couple of cm drop for me from my seat to my bars the way I have my bike set up now. That would indeed change the angle of attack of my forearms relative to the hoods and change the ergonomics. I am glad I posted the question initially for others to weigh in on as it has promoted some good discussion. Thanks again for your further comments.
George

Knees hurt, back hurt, neck hurt? If all negative, then no worries mate!

Quoted post said:

The answer is Darren you are simply correct and I might add a very astute observation.

May be I should have been an engineer after all🙂. Nice chatting again George.

BTW I have decided to stick with my frame for a while. If I was starting again I would get a 60cm rather than 57 to give me extra height and run it with a shorter 90mm stem. I will know next time though.

Cappy all my stuff hurts and I keep doin' it anyway...lol
Am addicted to the adreneline I guess 🙂
Cheers brothers,
George

biker7 said:

Hi Guys,
Hope everybody is enjoying the good spring weather that has been long overdue in the mid-west...I sure have. Have a few miles on my new buggy and have swapped out the long stock 130mm stem for a shorter one and now my handlebars is covering the front axle while on the hoods. Wonder how close the experienced roadies adhere to this old standard?...or do you have a preference either way...be it axle behind for a bit more stretched out or in front of the bars when you are on the hoods? A comment made my 53-11 sparked me to take the wrap off my bars and play around with hood position. I moved mine up a bit and wonder where you guys like to run your hoods? Believe hood position may vary even more based on type of levers...I have Campy and the ergonomics are a bit different than Shimano ergo lever hoods. I find if I rotate the ergo levers up a bit it shortens my reach however translates a bit more stress to the heel of my hand.
Some may know the convention with Campy based upon a discussion I had with a knowledgeable Campy tech is place a straight edge on the bottom of the drops and that should be the bottom pt. of the lever. I am deviating on this theme with mounting my levers a bit higher and rotating my bars a bit more CW in profile when standing on the RHS of the bike. Not sure there is an immaculate solution but trying different combinations. Wondered if you guys had done the same with any conclusion?
As most know bar and lever(s) position has a huge effect on riding position.
Cheers,
George

Gosh Georgie....do you need a group grope on everything? 🙄 Put it where ya like it and just go with it.