Hammerstrength v free weights

"gman99" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Has anyone or is there information that would convert the weight on a
hammerstrength flat bench to that of a free weight bench ??

For example, if I bench 200lbs on a hammerstrength bench what would
that be in free weight barbell bench ? I know, I could bring out the
scale but there isn't one at the gym that's easily moved.

long answer:

Assuming you mean the machine thingy, and assuming that pushing 200lb on the
machine actually requires 200lb upwards force on the handles (which isn't
necessarily true).

There isn't really an answer. You might have enough tricep / pec strength to
push 200lbs up, but not enough strength in other muscles to keep the bar
from falling onto your stomach or over your head. In which case your max
bench would be <200lbs.

On the other hand, you might have developed the required stabilisers enough
from some other exercise, and then you would be able to bench 200lbs. But
having enough strength in the stabiliser muscles won't change what you do on
the machine where they're not needed, so there won't be some formula you can
use to compare.

It's also possible that you could actually bench more free weight than on
the machine, if your body doesn't like the path the machine forces you
through. I can't squat more than about 60kg in a smith machine, and even
then depth will be [censored]. I can squat 100kg to full depth with free weights,
because my back isn't being shoved into a painful position.

short answer:

Get a couple of mates to spot you and find out.

Peter

In article <[email hidden]>,

gman99 said:

Has anyone or is there information that would convert the weight on a
hammerstrength flat bench to that of a free weight bench ??

For example, if I bench 200lbs on a hammerstrength bench what would
that be in free weight barbell bench ? I know, I could bring out the
scale but there isn't one at the gym that's easily moved.

It doesn't convert. Depends on the person, experience, etc.

Go do a free weight bench and find out.

"gman99" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Has anyone or is there information that would convert the weight on a
hammerstrength flat bench to that of a free weight bench ??

For example, if I bench 200lbs on a hammerstrength bench what would
that be in free weight barbell bench ? I know, I could bring out the
scale but there isn't one at the gym that's easily moved.

When Arthur Jones' son (Gary) designed these things, he was the first to put
curved and complex shaped gym equipment pieces into a box for shipping and
assembly. He was also conscious of how much floor space each machine took
up.

Translation?? He used short lever arms. Which, as far as I am concerned, a
great flaw in his design. This requires HUGE amounts of weights. Expecially
if you are strong.

Therefore, there is NO relationship between what yo can lift on a
hammerstrength machine and what you can lift in the real world. Many people
have discovered this on their own.

Totally different universes. This is in addition to the stabilizer muscles
needed to do a real world lift.

Gary Jones was a great designer and innovator. But the large investments in
weights and the big need for lots of iron for advanced people have been well
known among gym owners. But since most of the gym members are weak wanna
be's, it probably doesn't matter all that much. And manny folks will never
advance enough to do movements off of a machine.

"Lee Michaels" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"gman99" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Has anyone or is there information that would convert the weight on a
hammerstrength flat bench to that of a free weight bench ??

For example, if I bench 200lbs on a hammerstrength bench what would
that be in free weight barbell bench ? I know, I could bring out the
scale but there isn't one at the gym that's easily moved.

When Arthur Jones' son (Gary) designed these things, he was the first to
put curved and complex shaped gym equipment pieces into a box for shipping
and assembly. He was also conscious of how much floor space each machine
took up.

Translation?? He used short lever arms. Which, as far as I am concerned,
a great flaw in his design. This requires HUGE amounts of weights.
Expecially if you are strong.

Not sure what you mean here. You must be referring to the distance from the
plates to the fulcrum?

Quoted message said:

Therefore, there is NO relationship between what yo can lift on a
hammerstrength machine and what you can lift in the real world. Many
people have discovered this on their own.

But they use real plates! So it's obviously better than a machine that uses
rectangular weights and pins:-)

Peter Allen said:

"gman99" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Has anyone or is there information that would convert the weight on

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

hammerstrength flat bench to that of a free weight bench ??

For example, if I bench 200lbs on a hammerstrength bench what would
that be in free weight barbell bench ? I know, I could bring out

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

scale but there isn't one at the gym that's easily moved.

long answer:

Assuming you mean the machine thingy,

?? Is that the technical term ?? No, that would be a universal...I'm
talking about a specific piece of equipment which allows you to add
plates. It is a regular flat bench but has the weights added to an arm
that you lift.

http://us.commercial.lifefitness.com/content.cfm/iso-lateralhorizontalbenchpress

Hobbes said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

gman99 said:

Has anyone or is there information that would convert the weight on

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

hammerstrength flat bench to that of a free weight bench ??

For example, if I bench 200lbs on a hammerstrength bench what would
that be in free weight barbell bench ? I know, I could bring out

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

scale but there isn't one at the gym that's easily moved.

It doesn't convert. Depends on the person, experience, etc.

Why ?? I should be able to simply stick a scale underneath (if I had
one) and weigh it. As long as the weight arm (lever) angle stays below
the fulcrum the weight shouldn't change (if I remember my physics
correctly).

"ATP*" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Lee Michaels" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"gman99" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Has anyone or is there information that would convert the weight on a
hammerstrength flat bench to that of a free weight bench ??

For example, if I bench 200lbs on a hammerstrength bench what would
that be in free weight barbell bench ? I know, I could bring out the
scale but there isn't one at the gym that's easily moved.

When Arthur Jones' son (Gary) designed these things, he was the first to
put curved and complex shaped gym equipment pieces into a box for
shipping and assembly. He was also conscious of how much floor space
each machine took up.

Translation?? He used short lever arms. Which, as far as I am
concerned, a great flaw in his design. This requires HUGE amounts of
weights. Expecially if you are strong.

Not sure what you mean here. You must be referring to the distance from
the plates to the fulcrum?

Quoted message said:

Therefore, there is NO relationship between what yo can lift on a
hammerstrength machine and what you can lift in the real world. Many
people have discovered this on their own.

But they use real plates! So it's obviously better than a machine that
uses rectangular weights and pins:-)
how?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Translation?? He used short lever arms. Which, as far as I am

concerned,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a great flaw in his design. This requires HUGE amounts of weights.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Expecially if you are strong.

that would be irrelevant...what counts is the position of the weight
relative to the fulcrum. In this case I don;t beleive the weight ever
goes above the fulcrum therefore there is no mechanical benefit...the
ratio is 1 to 1 AFAICTd...but then I'm no physics major.

"Kevin J. Coolidge" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"ATP*" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Lee Michaels" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"gman99" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Has anyone or is there information that would convert the weight on a
> hammerstrength flat bench to that of a free weight bench ??
>
> For example, if I bench 200lbs on a hammerstrength bench what would
> that be in free weight barbell bench ? I know, I could bring out the
> scale but there isn't one at the gym that's easily moved.
>
When Arthur Jones' son (Gary) designed these things, he was the first to
put curved and complex shaped gym equipment pieces into a box for
shipping and assembly. He was also conscious of how much floor space
each machine took up.

Translation?? He used short lever arms. Which, as far as I am
concerned, a great flaw in his design. This requires HUGE amounts of
weights. Expecially if you are strong.

Not sure what you mean here. You must be referring to the distance from
the plates to the fulcrum?

Quoted message said:

Therefore, there is NO relationship between what yo can lift on a
hammerstrength machine and what you can lift in the real world. Many
people have discovered this on their own.

But they use real plates! So it's obviously better than a machine that
uses rectangular weights and pins:-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

how?

It's not, hence the smiley. The only advantage is you get a little exercise
loading the plates. But it is apparently a great marketing tool.

"Kevin J. Coolidge" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

"ATP*" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

"Lee Michaels" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

"gman99" <[email hidden]> wrote
> Has anyone or is there information that would convert the weight on a
> hammerstrength flat bench to that of a free weight bench ??
>
> For example, if I bench 200lbs on a hammerstrength bench what would
> that be in free weight barbell bench ? I know, I could bring out the
> scale but there isn't one at the gym that's easily moved.
>
When Arthur Jones' son (Gary) designed these things, he was the first to
put curved and complex shaped gym equipment pieces into a box for
shipping and assembly. He was also conscious of how much floor space
each machine took up.

Translation?? He used short lever arms. Which, as far as I am
concerned, a great flaw in his design. This requires HUGE amounts of
weights. Expecially if you are strong.

Not sure what you mean here. You must be referring to the distance from
the plates to the fulcrum?

Quoted message said:

Therefore, there is NO relationship between what yo can lift on a
hammerstrength machine and what you can lift in the real world. Many
people have discovered this on their own.

But they use real plates! So it's obviously better than a machine that
uses rectangular weights and pins:-)

Quoted message said:

how?

Plates, being round, are a more fundamentally basic shape than rectangular
weights in a stack.

Spherical weights would be even better.

Weights in a Calabi-Yau shape would be just a dream.

David

gman99 said:

Peter Allen said:

"gman99" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Has anyone or is there information that would convert the weight on a
hammerstrength flat bench to that of a free weight bench ??
For example, if I bench 200lbs on a hammerstrength bench what would
that be in free weight barbell bench ? I know, I could bring out the
scale but there isn't one at the gym that's easily moved.

Quoted message said:

long answer:

Assuming you mean the machine thingy,

?? Is that the technical term ?? No, that would be a universal...I'm
talking about a specific piece of equipment which allows you to add
plates. It is a regular flat bench but has the weights added to an

arm

Quoted message said:

that you lift.

http://us.commercial.lifefitness.com/content.cfm/iso-lateralhorizontalbenchpress

Perhaps someone in the scientific world can help more easily...

"gman99" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hobbes said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

gman99 said:

Has anyone or is there information that would convert the weight on

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

hammerstrength flat bench to that of a free weight bench ??

For example, if I bench 200lbs on a hammerstrength bench what would
that be in free weight barbell bench ? I know, I could bring out

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

scale but there isn't one at the gym that's easily moved.

It doesn't convert. Depends on the person, experience, etc.

Why ?? I should be able to simply stick a scale underneath (if I had
one) and weigh it. As long as the weight arm (lever) angle stays below
the fulcrum the weight shouldn't change (if I remember my physics
correctly).

The only way the weight would require close to the same force is if it was
the same distance from the fulcrum as the handles(it would only be exactly
the same when the lever is perfectly horizontal). Typically it's not, the
weight is closer to the fulcrum, so you have a mechanical advantage. You are
pushing on the long part of the lever, travelling a greater distance than
the vertical increase in height for the weight.

"David Cohen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Kevin J. Coolidge" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

"ATP*" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

"Lee Michaels" <[email hidden]> wrote
> "gman99" <[email hidden]> wrote
>> Has anyone or is there information that would convert the weight on a
>> hammerstrength flat bench to that of a free weight bench ??
>>
>> For example, if I bench 200lbs on a hammerstrength bench what would
>> that be in free weight barbell bench ? I know, I could bring out the
>> scale but there isn't one at the gym that's easily moved.
>>
> When Arthur Jones' son (Gary) designed these things, he was the first
> to put curved and complex shaped gym equipment pieces into a box for
> shipping and assembly. He was also conscious of how much floor space
> each machine took up.
>
> Translation?? He used short lever arms. Which, as far as I am
> concerned, a great flaw in his design. This requires HUGE amounts of
> weights. Expecially if you are strong.
Not sure what you mean here. You must be referring to the distance from
the plates to the fulcrum?
>
> Therefore, there is NO relationship between what yo can lift on a
> hammerstrength machine and what you can lift in the real world. Many
> people have discovered this on their own.
>
But they use real plates! So it's obviously better than a machine that
uses rectangular weights and pins:-)

Quoted message said:

how?

Plates, being round, are a more fundamentally basic shape than rectangular
weights in a stack.

Spherical weights would be even better.

Weights in a Calabi-Yau shape would be just a dream.

David

They would be second only to the kettlebell shape.

"gman99" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Translation?? He used short lever arms. Which, as far as I am

concerned,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a great flaw in his design. This requires HUGE amounts of weights.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Expecially if you are strong.

that would be irrelevant...what counts is the position of the weight
relative to the fulcrum. In this case I don;t beleive the weight ever
goes above the fulcrum therefore there is no mechanical benefit...the
ratio is 1 to 1 AFAICTd...but then I'm no physics major.

If I'm interpreting the picture correctly, it looks like the x distance from
the fulcrum to the weight is about 20" or so, and the distance from the
fulcrum to the handle is maybe 32-34" - so there is a definite mechanical
advantage to the machine.

As for finding a scale to put under the handle to measure the downward force
at a given angle - that would not take into account the stabilization
required on a free weight lift, as others have pointed out. It's apples and
oranges. Do you not have access to a free weight bench?

Quoted message said:

You are still an idiot.

Fruit of the looms a little too tight ??

Quoted message said:

There is NO comparison between the two.

The WEIGHT you moron...ALL I asked was about the WEIGHT....there IS a
comparison...ok...so stabilizers are not being used...the CHEST muscle
must still contract to move the weight....the question, apparently not
clearly enough asked, was am I pushing the same amount if weight...am I
losing anything in the mechanical load on the Hammer Strength bench ??

Well then DO NOT ANSWER the post if you're upset or otherwise
miffed...I don't want to hear from you if all you have is this [censored]...

Quoted message said:

If I'm interpreting the picture correctly, it looks like the x

distance from

Quoted message said:

the fulcrum to the weight is about 20" or so, and the distance from

the

Quoted message said:

fulcrum to the handle is maybe 32-34" - so there is a definite

mechanical

Quoted message said:

advantage to the machine.

I don't think that picture does justice...the weight is actuall forward
of the halfway point...the weight is perhaps 30" from the fulcrum and
only about 14-16" from the handle...

Quoted message said:

As for finding a scale to put under the handle to measure the

downward force

Quoted message said:

at a given angle - that would not take into account the stabilization
required on a free weight lift, as others have pointed out. It's

apples and

Quoted message said:

oranges. Do you not have access to a free weight bench?

It's not complete apples and oranges, afterall the purpose is to build
the chest muscle. No there is not free weight bench and the dumbbells
only go to 90 lbs....

"gman99" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter Allen said:

"gman99" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Has anyone or is there information that would convert the weight on

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

hammerstrength flat bench to that of a free weight bench ??

For example, if I bench 200lbs on a hammerstrength bench what would
that be in free weight barbell bench ? I know, I could bring out

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

scale but there isn't one at the gym that's easily moved.

long answer:

Assuming you mean the machine thingy,

?? Is that the technical term ?? No, that would be a universal...I'm
talking about a specific piece of equipment which allows you to add
plates. It is a regular flat bench but has the weights added to an arm
that you lift.

http://us.commercial.lifefitness.com/content.cfm/iso-lateralhorizontalbenchpress

Yes, that is a machine thingy.

Peter

"gman99" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If I'm interpreting the picture correctly, it looks like the x

distance from

Quoted message said:

the fulcrum to the weight is about 20" or so, and the distance from

the

Quoted message said:

fulcrum to the handle is maybe 32-34" - so there is a definite

mechanical

Quoted message said:

advantage to the machine.

I don't think that picture does justice...the weight is actuall forward
of the halfway point...the weight is perhaps 30" from the fulcrum and
only about 14-16" from the handle...

If the weight were situated directly over your hands - there would be no
mech. advantage. The closer it moves to the fulcrum, the greater the
mechanical advantage.

To make that arm rotate on the fulcrum pin, you have to generate more torque
(ft-lbs) than the weight is providing. So, 100 lbs located 2 feet from the
pivot pin is 200 ft-lbs, if you are pressing from a lever arm 3 ft long, you
need only apply 67lbs to generate the same amount of torque. Capeesh?

gman99 said:

gman99 said:

Peter Allen said:

"gman99" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Has anyone or is there information that would convert the weight on a
hammerstrength flat bench to that of a free weight bench ??
For example, if I bench 200lbs on a hammerstrength bench what would
that be in free weight barbell bench ? I know, I could bring out the
scale but there isn't one at the gym that's easily moved.

Quoted message said:

long answer:

Assuming you mean the machine thingy,

?? Is that the technical term ?? No, that would be a universal...I'm
talking about a specific piece of equipment which allows you to add
plates. It is a regular flat bench but has the weights added to an
arm that you lift.

http://us.commercial.lifefitness.com/content.cfm/iso-lateralhorizontalbenchpress

Perhaps someone in the scientific world can help more easily...

Your indignation is laughable.
--

JMW
http://www.rustyiron.net