GTOE in BROL

Larry Varney <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They also remind us that a Greenspeed is still way more expensive than some cheaper brands.
Would it make sense for a maker of expensive, state-of-the-art trikes to offer a special low-
cost model, to try and capture the lower-end entry-level segment of the trike market? Or is that
better left to the people who can do that best: Whizwheels, Stein, etc?

If Greenspeed markets a lower-cost trike, in direct competition to what's already there, they
will have an advantage going in, based solely on name recognition and customer loyalty. But if
it were to turn out to be not nearly as good as the TerraTrikes, Speeds (and soon Trails and
Roads!) and so on, it would come back to haunt them.

Problem is that with the falling US dollar compared to the Australian Dollar, and many other
currencies as well, it will be hard for a Australian, English or other European trike (or bike)
maker to compete on a price basis in the US. One would expect that is the reason for the US's
position that it will no longer take extreme measures to support our old greenback.

Gary McCarty, Greenspeed GTO, Salt Lake City

Gary,

Your observation is right on target. However, Greenspeed's insight on having some of their
manufacturing performed in Taiwan will insure that they can still have a competitive edge here in
the States.

Although this is good news for us USA builders, we are now paying more for our components than
earlier this year.

Regards,

Rick Horwitz www.hellbentcycles.com

"Gary Mc" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Larry Varney <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They also remind us that a Greenspeed is still way more expensive than some cheaper brands.
Would it make sense for a maker of expensive, state-of-the-art trikes to offer a special low-
cost model, to try and capture the lower-end entry-level segment of the trike market? Or is
that better left to the people who can do that best: Whizwheels, Stein, etc?

If Greenspeed markets a lower-cost trike, in direct competition to what's already there, they
will have an advantage going in, based solely on name recognition and customer loyalty. But if
it were to turn out to be not nearly as good as the TerraTrikes, Speeds (and soon Trails and
Roads!) and so on, it would come back to haunt them.

Problem is that with the falling US dollar compared to the Australian Dollar, and many other
currencies as well, it will be hard for a Australian, English or other European trike (or bike)
maker to compete on a price basis in the US. One would expect that is the reason for the US's
position that it will no longer take extreme measures to support our old greenback.

Gary McCarty, Greenspeed GTO, Salt Lake City

In article <[email hidden]>, Larry Varney

Quoted message said:

I think any manufacturer that already has a good reputation would stand to benefit from going
after any segment of the market. And yes, right now the low-end market is the place to go, as
evidenced by the success of companies like WizWheelz and Catrike.

That's assuming you define the $2k price point as "low end." The true low end is down in the
vicinity of the J&B Tadpole, which is a non-winning proposition for any US builder.

Quoted message said:

If Greenspeed markets a lower-cost trike, in direct competition to what's already there, they
will have an advantage going in, based solely on name recognition and customer loyalty.

Not necessarily. Those loyal customers have enough money already to buy $3500 Greenspeeds. Why would
they buy a low-end trike? (Leaving aside for a moment the idea of buying one for the kids/SO, etc...
that's a special case.) Buyers of entry-level machinery don't know the players and don't have any
preconceived ideas about who's best. Brand image has less impact on them. Also, the Internet has
proven to be the single best thing to ever happen to the recumbent industry. Information flows very
freely, and product reviews/chat buzz can establish a new manufacturer as a major player in a hurry.

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 15:06:07 -0500, Larry Varney <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

If Greenspeed markets a lower-cost trike, in direct competition to what's already there, they
will have an advantage going in, based solely on name recognition and customer loyalty. But if it
were to turn out to be not nearly as good as the TerraTrikes, Speeds (and soon Trails and Roads!)
and so on, it would come back to haunt them.

And that presupposes that they haven't already considered releasing an entry-level spec, and
rejected it. There are plenty of reasons they would decide against, like the danger of damage to the
brand, or maybe their market research tells them there are not enough extra sales to be got just by
cutting the price (those of us who want great trikes will always afford them one way or another).

They could run it under another brand inna Volkswagen stylee but I doubt it would be worth the
effort, and it might even undermine the sales of their full-spec offering.

Stein seems to be in trouble (unless others know different?) - I think the most complete range may
be the Trices, which seem to go from about $3k to about $6k.

One other thing occurs to me: I have not yet bought a trike because I have already spent a lot on
bikes lately so have run out of budget. I bought a recumbent bike not a trike, because it was half
the price and more convenient for getting indoors. I will still buy a trike one day, but although it
is cost that is preventing me from buying right now, availability of cheap trikes won't cause me to
buy because I want either a Trice Monster or a Windcheetah, or something equivalent.

Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
chapmancentral.demon.co.ukchapmancentral.demon.co.ukOpen ↗

[email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

They found out that the new steering geometry not only eliminates brake steer, but also pedal
steer! No more head hunting from your heavy pedalling... Anybody can back up this claim?

I would tend to trust Bryan on this one... he owns an XXL, and has written reviews of the earlier
GTO, a GTX (old seat/steering) and a Trisled. I will add that I also test rode a new GTO-E and found
the same to be true.

Geoff Adams Vision R64

Andrew Douglas <[email hidden]> wrote:

: That's assuming you define the $2k price point as "low end." The true low end is down in the
: vicinity of the J&B Tadpole, which is a non-winning proposition for any US builder.

J&B... who's that again?

:> If Greenspeed markets a lower-cost trike, in direct competition to what's already there, they
:> will have an advantage going in, based solely on name recognition and customer loyalty.

: Not necessarily. Those loyal customers have enough money already to buy $3500 Greenspeeds. Why
: would they buy a low-end trike? (Leaving aside

Yes, I'd think the loyals would first buy the low-end trike and later upgrade to 'real' Greenspeed.

I'm wondering how somebody like Greenspeed could push their price down to the low-cost levels. They
could maybe outsource to places like continental China and sell the low end at a loss. There is
probably quite a bit of margin that is justified by the cost of developing the designs. Cut that, or
even just license the design and the brand to a different manufacturer...

--
Risto Varanka | helsinki.fi~rvarankaOpen ↗ [email hidden]

<[email hidden]> skrev

Quoted message said:

J&B... who's that again?

Guys that make the Sun line of bikes?

M.

Mikael Seierup said:

<[email hidden]> skrev

Quoted message said:

J&B... who's that again?

Guys that make the Sun line of bikes?

Not quite right. Sun Bicycles [1] makes the Gardner Martin/Easy Racers designed recumbent bikes and
trikes (among others) which are imported to the US (and elsewhere?) by J&B Importers, Inc.

[1] <http://www.sunbicycles.com/03/html_03/home.html>.
[2] <http://www.jbimporters.com/>.

Tom Sherman - 41 N, 90 W

Quoted message said:

Not quite right. Sun Bicycles [1] makes the Gardner Martin/Easy Racers designed recumbent bikes
and trikes (among others) which are imported to the US (and elsewhere?) by J&B Importers, Inc.

Well sort of... J&B OWNS Sun. They're more than just importers.

--
Bryan J. Ball Publisher/Editor 'BentRider Online Magazine www.bentrideronline.com

Just zis Guy said:

And that presupposes that they haven't already considered releasing an entry-level spec, and
rejected it.

Sort of like Porsche?

"The entry-level Porsche is a second-hand Porsche" - a Porsche bloke.

--

Dave Larrington - legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uklegslarry.beerdrinkers.co.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
bhpc.org.ukbhpc.org.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================

Dave Larrington said:

Just zis Guy said:

And that presupposes that they haven't already considered releasing an entry-level spec, and
rejected it.

Sort of like Porsche?

"The entry-level Porsche is a second-hand Porsche" - a Porsche bloke.

Wasn't the 924 an entry-level Porsche? Or did that not count because it had VW bits underneath (sort
of like Porsche may do to make a cheaper Cayenne available??)?

--
I do not accept unsolicted commercial e-mail. Remove NO_UCE for legitimate replies.

Victor Kan said:

Wasn't the 924 an entry-level Porsche? Or did that not count because it had VW bits underneath
(sort of like Porsche may do to make a cheaper Cayenne available??)?

IIRC it was originally going to be an Audi. At the time, Audi made cars for unsuccessful cement
salesmen and it could be said that a dinky little 2 litre sports coupe could only improve matters,
even if the engine came from a VW van. A certain amount of horse-trading later, it turned into a
Porker, in spite of the marked lack of success of previous Porsches-that-were-not-a-911.

As to the Cayenne, I am pleased to report that it is selling like hot, er, things marked "Best
served chilled" in the UK. I have seen three, one of which was showing its legendary Teutonic build
quality, reliability, etc. by being ferried away on a breakdown truck. When I first saw spy pictures
in brother-in-law Brandenburg's "auto, motor und sport" I was convinced that they showed it wearing
heavy disguise.

They didn't. Ugh!

--

Dave Larrington - legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uklegslarry.beerdrinkers.co.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
bhpc.org.ukbhpc.org.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================

You may be thinking of the 914 although lots of VW parts in any Porsche

"Victor Kan" <[email hidden]_UCEloopdrive.net> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dave Larrington said:

Just zis Guy said:

And that presupposes that they haven't already considered releasing an entry-level spec, and
rejected it.

Sort of like Porsche?

"The entry-level Porsche is a second-hand Porsche" - a Porsche bloke.

Wasn't the 924 an entry-level Porsche? Or did that not count because it had VW bits underneath
(sort of like Porsche may do to make a cheaper Cayenne available??)?

--
I do not accept unsolicted commercial e-mail. Remove NO_UCE for legitimate replies.

Mark Leuck said:

You may be thinking of the 914 although lots of VW parts in any Porsche

I did reply to this yesterday, but Stan has clearly kidnapped the message. Bah! Anyway, the 924 was,
if my memory-brains are to be trusted, originally intended to be an Audi. Audi being at the time a
manufacturer of cars for unsuccessful cement salesmen, a nice sporty little number would have done
wonders for their image even if it shared a motor with Volkswagen's LT van. But then there was lots
of politicking and the thing ended up as a Porsche. Porsche-o-Philes sniffed at it, because the
engine was in the wrong place, came from a van and required a radiator even after it evolved into
the 944 and 968, with the VW engine long discarded.

The Cayenne is an abomination. Find those responsible, shoot them and burn the bodies.

--

Dave Larrington - legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uklegslarry.beerdrinkers.co.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
bhpc.org.ukbhpc.org.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================

"Dave Larrington" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mark Leuck said:

You may be thinking of the 914 although lots of VW parts in any Porsche

I did reply to this yesterday, but Stan has clearly kidnapped the message. Bah! Anyway, the 924
was, if my memory-brains are to be trusted,

originally

Quoted message said:

intended to be an Audi. Audi being at the time a manufacturer of cars for unsuccessful cement
salesmen, a nice sporty little number would have done wonders for their image even if it shared a
motor with Volkswagen's LT

van.

Quoted message said:

But then there was lots of politicking and the thing ended up as a

Porsche.

Quoted message said:

Porsche-o-Philes sniffed at it, because the engine was in the wrong place, came from a van and
required a radiator even after it evolved into the 944 and 968, with the VW engine long discarded.

members.tripod.com924intro.htmlOpen ↗

Although I still think he meant the 914 which was inexpensive and also full of VW parts

Quoted message said:

The Cayenne is an abomination. Find those responsible, shoot them and

burn

Quoted message said:

the bodies.

Naaa, just another (expensive) entry into a crowded SUV market, time will tell if it's successful

Dave Larrington wrote: ...

Quoted message said:

The Cayenne is an abomination. Find those responsible, shoot them and burn the bodies.

I had a close view of one of these recently (the driver pulled so close beside me at a red light
that I could have easily hit it by swinging my handlebars to the side). I was surprised to see
"orange peel" in the paint.

Tom Sherman – Close to 41½ N, 90½ W

I used to own a '73 VW van and I plucked a 1.8 litre motor from a roached Porsche 914 and installed
it into the van. Worked great!

I heard rumors that the Porsche 914 was sold in Europe as a VW. Perhaps this is why David didn't
acknowledge your last statement?

As for the 924, I would much rather have an underpowered 914.

Rick---

"Mark Leuck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:AydIb.696803$Tr4.1740404@attbi_s03...

Quoted message said:

"Dave Larrington" <[email hidden]> wrote in message -"]news:[email hidden]-
berlin.de...

Quoted message said:

Mark Leuck said:

You may be thinking of the 914 although lots of VW parts in any Porsche

I did reply to this yesterday, but Stan has clearly kidnapped the

message.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bah! Anyway, the 924 was, if my memory-brains are to be trusted,

originally

Quoted message said:

intended to be an Audi. Audi being at the time a manufacturer of cars

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

unsuccessful cement salesmen, a nice sporty little number would have

done

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

wonders for their image even if it shared a motor with Volkswagen's LT

van.

Quoted message said:

But then there was lots of politicking and the thing ended up as a

Porsche.

Quoted message said:

Porsche-o-Philes sniffed at it, because the engine was in the wrong

place,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

came from a van and required a radiator even after it evolved into the

944

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and 968, with the VW engine long discarded.

members.tripod.com924intro.htmlOpen ↗

Although I still think he meant the 914 which was inexpensive and also

full

Quoted message said:

of VW parts

Quoted message said:

The Cayenne is an abomination. Find those responsible, shoot them and

burn

Quoted message said:

the bodies.

Naaa, just another (expensive) entry into a crowded SUV market, time will tell if it's successful

Hellbent Rick said:

I heard rumors that the Porsche 914 was sold in Europe as a VW. Perhaps this is why David didn't
acknowledge your last statement?

IIRC the 914 was sold as a VW-Porsche while the 916 was just badged "Porsche". Neither sold at all
well around these parts, but sales of the former were scarcely visible to the naked eye.

--

Dave Larrington - legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uklegslarry.beerdrinkers.co.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
bhpc.org.ukbhpc.org.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================

"Hellbent Rick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I used to own a '73 VW van and I plucked a 1.8 litre motor from a roached Porsche 914 and
installed it into the van. Worked great!

I heard rumors that the Porsche 914 was sold in Europe as a VW. Perhaps this is why David didn't
acknowledge your last statement?

As for the 924, I would much rather have an underpowered 914.

Rick---

Wandering *way* off-topic, but what the hey...

The '73 VW van and the 914 used the same engine... I'm tempted to say identical, but I'm not really
sure (too many beer-filled post-auto-parts-counter nights). The 914 did sport "VW-Porsche" emblems
in Europe (on the 914-6 at least).

The 924 had an Audi truck engine, VW Rabbit front suspension, and a variety of other pieces pinched
from part bins.

Once upon a time I owned a 1961 VW crewcab pickup... rusty and decrepit. I restored it to the point
where it *ran*, but it was woefully undergeared. It topped out at 70mph, *above* redline in high
gear. Driving on L.A's freeways was like sitting on a hand grenade.

Jeff (reliving my misspent youth)