Grudge Match Time: Recumbent vs DF

"B. Sanders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:XqPka.378976$3D1.208076@sccrnsc01...

Quoted message said:

The ongoing flamewar about lowracer recumbents vs. upright road bikes is begging for resolution,
isn't it? How can we settle this? I think I

know...

Quoted message said:

It's high time for the National Recumbent vs Upright Grudge Match Series. That ought to ignite
some interest, eh? Think you got what it takes to smoke a "sofa bike"? Bring it on. No holds
barred. This is an all-out speedfest and may the best bike win.

Think we could get some ESPN coverage?

Barry

Hehe. But if it is to be a true grude match, we need a variety of races. A fast flat course maybe
with some rollers; a hill climb; an urban course replete with curb hops, speed bumps, a simulated
traffic section, all on streets with potholes and other road obstructions; a trail ride with typical
urban trails - some paved, some gravel; and finally, an off-road course.

There would be classes for event-specific machines and an "all-around" class where the same vehicle
must be used for all events (tire changes would be allowed).

-Buck

X games, watch out, and you thought cool was jumping ramps and flipping over?

Ed Gin

Buck said:

"B. Sanders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:XqPka.378976$3D1.208076@sccrnsc01...

Quoted message said:

The ongoing flamewar about lowracer recumbents vs. upright road bikes is begging for resolution,
isn't it? How can we settle this? I think I

know...

Quoted message said:

It's high time for the National Recumbent vs Upright Grudge Match Series. That ought to ignite
some interest, eh? Think you got what it takes to smoke a "sofa bike"? Bring it on. No holds
barred. This is an all-out speedfest and may the best bike win.

Think we could get some ESPN coverage?

Barry

Hehe. But if it is to be a true grude match, we need a variety of races. A fast flat course maybe
with some rollers; a hill climb; an urban course replete with curb hops, speed bumps, a simulated
traffic section, all on streets with potholes and other road obstructions; a trail ride with
typical urban trails - some paved, some gravel; and finally, an off-road course.

There would be classes for event-specific machines and an "all-around" class where the same
vehicle must be used for all events (tire changes would be allowed).

-Buck

"Buck" <j u n k m a i l @ g a l a x y c o r p . c o m> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Sanders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:XqPka.378976$3D1.208076@sccrnsc01...

Quoted message said:

The ongoing flamewar about lowracer recumbents vs. upright road bikes is begging for resolution,
isn't it? How can we settle this? I think I

know...

Quoted message said:

It's high time for the National Recumbent vs Upright Grudge Match

Series.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That ought to ignite some interest, eh? Think you got what it takes to smoke a "sofa bike"?
Bring it on. No holds barred. This is an all-out speedfest and may the best bike win.

Think we could get some ESPN coverage?

Barry

Hehe. But if it is to be a true grude match, we need a variety of races. A fast flat course maybe
with some rollers; a hill climb; an urban course replete with curb hops, speed bumps, a simulated
traffic section, all on streets with potholes and other road obstructions; a trail ride with

typical

Quoted message said:

urban trails - some paved, some gravel; and finally, an off-road course.

There would be classes for event-specific machines and an "all-around"

class

Quoted message said:

where the same vehicle must be used for all events (tire changes would be allowed).

-Buck

Don't forget the track-stand event.

GG

If you're in California, come along to to some planned HPV races:

June 1st - Hellyer Velodrome in San Jose July 20th - Encino Velodrome

Diamond frames are always welcome in HPVA events, so you could even compete and spectate.

-- Chris Broome HPVA
*******

"Chris Broome" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If you're in California, come along to to some planned HPV races:

June 1st - Hellyer Velodrome in San Jose July 20th - Encino Velodrome

Diamond frames are always welcome in HPVA events, so you could even compete and spectate.

Heh.

-B

"Buck" <j u n k m a i l @ g a l a x y c o r p . c o m> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Sanders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:XqPka.378976$3D1.208076@sccrnsc01...

Quoted message said:

The ongoing flamewar about lowracer recumbents vs. upright road bikes is begging for resolution,
isn't it? How can we settle this? I think I

know...

Quoted message said:

It's high time for the National Recumbent vs Upright Grudge Match

Series.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That ought to ignite some interest, eh? Think you got what it takes to smoke a "sofa bike"?
Bring it on. No holds barred. This is an all-out speedfest and may the best bike win.

Quoted message said:

Hehe. But if it is to be a true grude match, we need a variety of races.

The question being asked is: "Which is the fastest bike, recumbent or upright?" All races will be
oriented strictly toward that goal, and only that goal: pure speed, flat out. We could have a 10k
time trial, a 100k race (yes, with hills) and a maximum speed event using radar. Maybe we could have
an endurance race, too - say, 500k?

We want to know which kind of bike is fastest. Many claims have been made. Let's settle it. You
fellas ready to put your money where your mouth is? If the recumbents can use fairings and
tailboxes, then the upright racers can, too. Seems fair to me. We could make it an annual event, to
allow each faction to engineer a winning bike.

When and where should we hold these events? Invitational or open?

-Barry

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

If you're in California, come along to to some planned HPV races:

June 1st - Hellyer Velodrome in San Jose July 20th - Encino Velodrome

Diamond frames are always welcome in HPVA events, so you could even compete and spectate.

Do they run any of these events over rollers, city streets or cat 5 climbs?

--
David Kerber An optimist says "Good morning, Lord." While a pessimist says "Good Lord,
it's morning".

Remove the ns_ from the address before e-mailing.

"archer" <ns_archer1960@ns_hotmail.com> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

If you're in California, come along to to some planned HPV races:

June 1st - Hellyer Velodrome in San Jose July 20th - Encino Velodrome

Diamond frames are always welcome in HPVA events, so you could even compete and spectate.

Do they run any of these events over rollers, city streets or cat 5 climbs?

Do you need those features in order to go fast?

B

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

"archer" <ns_archer1960@ns_hotmail.com> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

If you're in California, come along to to some planned HPV races:

June 1st - Hellyer Velodrome in San Jose July 20th - Encino Velodrome

Diamond frames are always welcome in HPVA events, so you could even compete and spectate.

Do they run any of these events over rollers, city streets or cat 5 climbs?

Do you need those features in order to go fast?

Of course not, but if you are going to get fair races and useful information, you should run them
over various kinds of terrain, so we can see what technologies are best in what conditions. Nobody
here is arguing that DF's are as just as fast as 'bents on the track or flat roads (though some
claim they are close, if the DF in question is as specialized as the 'bent [disk wheels, bladed
frame, etc]), but that is not the only place people ride, so there should be races over a broader
range of terrain.

--
David Kerber An optimist says "Good morning, Lord." While a pessimist says "Good Lord,
it's morning".

Remove the ns_ from the address before e-mailing.

"archer" <ns_archer1960@ns_hotmail.com> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

"archer" <ns_archer1960@ns_hotmail.com> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]

says...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> If you're in California, come along to to some planned HPV races:
>
> June 1st - Hellyer Velodrome in San Jose July 20th - Encino Velodrome
>
> Diamond frames are always welcome in HPVA events, so you could even compete and spectate.

Do they run any of these events over rollers, city streets or cat 5 climbs?

Do you need those features in order to go fast?

Of course not, but if you are going to get fair races and useful information, you should run them
over various kinds of terrain, so we can see what technologies are best in what conditions. Nobody
here is arguing that DF's are as just as fast as 'bents on the track or flat roads

Yes, they are. That's exactly what we're trying to settle.

Quoted message said:

(though some claim they are close, if the DF in question is as specialized as the 'bent [disk
wheels, bladed frame, etc]), but that is not the only place people ride, so there should be races
over a broader range of terrain.

Demonstrating the "places people ride" is not germane to the goal. I ride an upright bike (slowly)
on muddy, nasty terrain, jumping curbs, etc; but this is about speed. What bike should I ride to go
*really* fast? When the question is asked: "Is an upright bike faster than a recumbent?" we will
know the answer.

Knowing with certainty which type of bike is fastest will definitely help cyclists all over the
world to make the correct choice if speed is their goal. Conversely, it will help retailers to know
which bikes to stock. This race series is designed with that in mind: To inform the public about
cycling technology.

The surfaces will need to be smoothly paved roads and tracks (for safety), with terrain that is
conducive to very high speeds. That rules out steep climbs; but not downhills. The most fair
comparison would be on relatively flat or gently rolling terrain, since recumbents have a distinct
advantage going downhill. Rain is dangerous for high-speed events, so rainy conditions are out.
Curvy roads would be fine; but again, safety is a factor. This doesn't need to be dangerous racing,
not should it be.

To minimize wind effects - which are a disadvantage for uprights - perhaps the races should be held
on enclosed tracks only. That way, nobody can cry foul about the weather, road conditions, etc. We
want a fair race, a safe race and a fast race. Grueling climbs only prove which *rider* is
strongest. We're trying to sort out which *bike* is capable of being ridden the fastest in optimal
conditions. Is the bike irrelevant? That's what we're going to find out.

-Barry

"Buck" <j u n k m a i l @ g a l a x y c o r p . c o m> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Sanders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:XqPka.378976$3D1.208076@sccrnsc01...

Quoted message said:

The ongoing flamewar about lowracer recumbents vs. upright road bikes is begging for resolution,
isn't it? How can we settle this? I think I

know...

Quoted message said:

It's high time for the National Recumbent vs Upright Grudge Match

Series.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That ought to ignite some interest, eh? Think you got what it takes to smoke a "sofa bike"?
Bring it on. No holds barred. This is an all-out speedfest and may the best bike win.

Think we could get some ESPN coverage?

Barry

Hehe. But if it is to be a true grude match, we need a variety of races. A fast flat course maybe
with some rollers;

Quoted message said:

a hill climb; an urban course replete with curb hops, speed bumps, a simulated traffic section,
all on streets with potholes and other road obstructions; a trail ride with

typical

Quoted message said:

urban trails - some paved, some gravel; and finally, an off-road course.

Those are slow events, and not relevant. We're testing high-end speeds. Mountain bikes can be
entered; but unless they're radically altered, they won't be competitive. Potholes and gravel are
*definitely* out. You must be kidding.

Quoted message said:

There would be classes for event-specific machines and an "all-around"

class

Quoted message said:

where the same vehicle must be used for all events (tire changes would be allowed).

Why? We're testing for speed, with intent to see which type of *bike* is the fastest of all. Tire
changing is definitely irrelevant. You can organize an "all around commuter/touring/urban assault
bike grudge match" on your own time.

-Barry

"Ed Gin & Shirleen Kajiwara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

X games, watch out, and you thought cool was jumping ramps and flipping over?

Ed got his race on. Wanna host the first race series in IL? I'll bet the WISIL folks would be glad
to lend hand.

-Barry

B. Sanders said:

We want to know which kind of bike is fastest. Many claims have been made. Let's settle it. You
fellas ready to put your money where your mouth is? If the recumbents can use fairings and
tailboxes, then the upright racers can, too. Seems fair to me. We could make it an annual event,
to allow each faction to engineer a winning bike.

A race would be entertaining but as there are many confounding factors I think a controlled
experiment would be more useful.

I believe that a fundamental question needs to be answered:

Which pedaling position (e.g. hip angle, bottom bracket height) results in the greatest average
power output over a set of specified time intervals (e.g. 10 min, 1/2 hour, 1 hour, 3 hours, etc.).
Or, put another way, using the body as mounted on a standard diamond frame bicycle as a control,
does average power output over a set of representative intervals change significantly as the body is
rotated about its center of mass.

Another interesting experiment that would be easier to perform, though less far-reaching in its
conclusions, is to start with a couple of willing cyclists of similar ability and bicycles of equal
weight, one upright, one recumbent, both equipped with power meters. Compare total work done to
traverse an identical course maintaining the same average speed (i.e. finishing together). To make
the experiment more interesting one could vary the average speed and/or the amount of total climbing
over multiple trials. For each trial plot the average power against average speed and/or climbing.
The point of this experiment is to see how average speed and total climbing affects a comparison
between the two platforms and to remove the cyclists' conditioning as a factor, something that seems
to be overlooked when making casual performance comparisons between upright and recumbent bicycles.

--
Bill Bushnell

In article <Fj0la.418143$S_4.485470@rwcrnsc53>, [email hidden] says...

...

Quoted message said:

To minimize wind effects - which are a disadvantage for uprights - perhaps the races should be
held on enclosed tracks only. That way, nobody can cry foul about the weather, road conditions,
etc. We want a fair race, a safe race and a fast race. Grueling climbs only prove which *rider* is
strongest. We're trying to sort out which *bike* is capable of being ridden the fastest in optimal
conditions. Is the bike irrelevant? That's what we're going to find out.

I'm not looking for results in _only_ optimal conditions. I want to see results in multiple
conditions: track, road (with turns), rolling hills, and hard climbs, so riders and dealers will
know which kind of bikes are the fastest _for the conditions they and their customers ride in_.

--
Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

Quoted message said:

Don't forget the track-stand event.

I think my recumbent trikes would win that one.

Quoted message said:

Of course not, but if you are going to get fair races and useful information, you should run them
over various kinds of terrain, so we can see what technologies are best in what conditions. Nobody
here is arguing that DF's are as just as fast as 'bents on the track or flat roads (though some
claim they are close, if the DF in question is as specialized as the 'bent [disk wheels, bladed
frame, etc]), but that is not the only place people ride, so there should be races over a broader
range of terrain.

Or compare day to day usefulness of bents vs diamond frame in more "real life situations".

This afternoon I carried all at one time on the bent (no trailer):
- 14 -20 lb wooden cupboard doors
- two welding helmets
- coveralls
- welding equipment (small accessories)
- an 8 person tent
- Three sets of 14 ft spare poles
- a spare tent fly
- spare clothes (winter cycling)
- bike tools, pump, etc

Jay said:

Quoted message said:

Don't forget the track-stand event.

I think my recumbent trikes would win that one.

Recumbent trikes are great for outdoor viewing events such as fireworks and air shows. Ride to the
event, and have the most comfortable seat while you are there.

I am thinking about adding a headrest and pillow to my Dragonflyer trike so I can pull over and take
a nap while riding. 😉

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

Buck' j u n k m a i l @ g a l a x y c o r p . c o m said:

Hehe. But if it is to be a true grude match, we need a variety of races. A fast flat course maybe
with some rollers; a hill climb; an urban course replete with curb hops, speed bumps, a simulated
traffic section, all on streets with potholes and other road obstructions; a trail ride with
typical urban trails - some paved, some gravel; and finally, an off-road course.

There would be classes for event-specific machines and an "all-around" class where the same
vehicle must be used for all events (tire changes would be allowed).

-Buck

That sounds like a lot of racing that favors regular traditional bikes. How about some that favor
bents then. Both riders run head on into each other to see who sustains less injury. How many times
can you clip in and fall over without getting too many bruises and give up. Which vehicle can carry
more objects like: lawnmower, car wheels, flourescent light bulbs, full sheet of plywood,bicycle and
other people. Which can climb and descend the steepest hill.How about a race around in an ice
skating rink without studded tires. Cold weather race at minus 20F and hot weather race at 100F. Who
can best evade a pack of mean dogs. Which bike is more bulletproof. Which has best theft deterrence.
Which one is easier to see at night. Which one can pass thru the smallest opening between two cars
both parked and moving. Shortest stopping distance. Now thats a show I would watch.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Don't forget the track-stand event.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Jay wrote: I think my recumbent trikes would win that one.

Quoted message said:

Tom Sherman at [email hidden] wrote: Recumbent trikes are great for outdoor viewing events
such as fireworks and air shows. Ride to the event, and have the most comfortable seat while you
are there. I am thinking about adding a headrest and pillow to my Dragonflyer trike so I can pull
over and take a nap while riding. 😉

Seriously I do just that. I have attended outdoor concerts, fireworks, BBQ's and always have a
custom made seat. The only concession I make is to remove the flag poles so as to not obstruct views
and to park behind any people in lower seating (blankets, etc). No need to lock up and all of my
belongings are in the panniers.

One slight negative is that at such events I literally get about 20 or more people an hour asking
questions and wanting to ride it. For one guy who was oversensitive and wanting to date me- he was
jealous of all the men asking questions and wanted me to leave it at home. Since it is my main
transport- I dumped the guy - not the bike.

I think I have found some value for trikes for my needs. I have three tadpole trikes, a delta and a
LWB and a SWB.

Recumbents are slower than diamond frames. I get so many people stopping me and asking questions
that it takes longer to get to any event.