Group etiquette again

from distant/vague personal memory i think most riders i have known have at one point been one of them (and perhaps yourself too?).
The only way you learn about bunch riding i guess is to get involved.
could you perhaps ask em to either take their turn or to just hang on the back/left so you know when you see your mate's jersey loom up on you right its your turn to move out/across and continue the chain. no idea if that works or not. The beauty of Beach rd is, it usually only takes a 'hill' of 10m rise to drop these hangers-on

flyingdutch said:

from distant/vague personal memory i think most riders i have known have at one point been one of them (and perhaps yourself too?).
The only way you learn about bunch riding i guess is to get involved.
could you perhaps ask em to either take their turn or to just hang on the back/left so you know when you see your mate's jersey loom up on you right its your turn to move out/across and continue the chain. no idea if that works or not. The beauty of Beach rd is, it usually only takes a 'hill' of 10m rise to drop these hangers-on

absolutely-

I'm sure they arn't comfortable taking turns, knowing when to move across either into the turn or off the turn...it is something we all have had to learn and get used to.....

suggestion: have a word to them about doing one or two practice rides ( maybe during the week) where you and they can practice rotating turns, knowing when to move up and how to, and why ( not all know why we do this and which way to do the turn depending on wind direction etc) it is vital to safely executing turns.

If they are dubious, its best they not do it till they can, with confidence, show skill and safety ...alternatively, use your next regular Sat bunch ride as a training session, take three experienced "tricksters" to do turns one behind each one of them, so you can each watch and encourage and critique as you go, cut the speed back to 28-30 or 25-28 for starting out and build it up as you progress into the ride and they get confidence...do it a few times make sure they look ahead and dont look back or across as they cut in......you will build a good cohesive and skilled group that will ride better and have more willing people to shout for muffins or beer when you come in post ride....( isnt that what its all about?)

alt #2 , make em ride with the other groups and only let them come in to your group on invitation when some one trusted to you says they are good enough.....hierachy and pecking order...like any good autocratic society

rooman said:

suggestion: have a word to them about doing one or two practice rides
( maybe during the week) where you and they can practice rotating
turns, knowing when to move up and how to, and why ( not all know why
we do this and which way to do the turn depending on wind direction
etc) it is vital to safely executing turns.

They know /how/ to rotate - they just aren't strong enough to do it
more than occasionally, which, without a signal of some sort, buggers
up the rest of us.

Quoted message said:

alt #2 , make em ride with the other groups and only let them come in
to your group on invitation when some one trusted to you says they are
good enough.....hierachy and pecking order...like any good autocratic
society

Right, the fascist approach :-)

--
Home page: http://members.westnet.com.au/mvw

flyingdutch said:

from distant/vague personal memory i think most riders i have known have
at one point been one of them (and perhaps yourself too?).

Of course - when I first went out with the fast group, I couldn't rotate
with them for long. The difference is that I would then drop off and
wait for the next group back, rather than hang on the back and feel like
a freeloader.

All the girls (except one married Amazon) are in the slower groups
anyway - that's a major disadvantage of getting fast :-)

Quoted message said:

The beauty of Beach rd is, it usually only
takes a 'hill' of 10m rise to drop these hangers-on

Unfortunately this is a very flat ride - we joke about winning the 3m
high 'king of the mountain' sprints - and the only way to drop people
would be to get right in front of them, drop off the group, then sprint
back, hopefully leaving them behind. A waste of effort, and IMHO an
arseholeish thing to do.

--
Home page: http://members.westnet.com.au/mvw

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> "Michael" == Michael Warner <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

alt #2 , make em ride with the other groups and only let them
come in to your group on invitation when some one trusted to you
says they are good enough.....hierachy and pecking order...like
any good autocratic society

Michael> Right, the fascist approach :-)

Sounds more like a meritocracy to me. I'm no expert in politics but I
believe that fascism centres around terrorising and suppressing the
opposition through dictatorial means.
--
Cheers | ~~ __@
Euan | ~~ _-\<,
Melbourne, Australia | ~ (*)/ (*)

Michael Warner said:

Hello all,

I ride with a fairly quick (32-33 avg, and rising) group on Sat mornings,
and we have a nagging problem with people who like to come out with
us but can barely keep up, and just hang onto the back instead of rotating.

When we reach the back of the rotation, we constantly have to look over
our shoulders to see if any of them want to rotate - sometimes they
do, or try and fail - before pulling over and moving up again. As a result,
we often have to waste energy pulling back into place, or end up in a long
single file, and start again.

Should I say something before we set out? There are three slower
groups behind us that they could join. I don't mind them using the air
behind us, but ISTM that they should shout 'go' or something to indicate
that they're not rotating. And if they don't even have the puff to do that,
maybe they should drop off :-)

Any opinions? This isn't a formal training ride or anything, so I don't
want to come across as a fascist.

Michael

--
Home page: http://members.westnet.com.au/mvw

My advice would be to split the riders into an A and B group. Start out at a pace that is comfortable for everyone to take their turns, but as the speed increases, let the B group riders know that they can "sit out" their turns and the A group rotates amongst themselves at the front. This gives everyone a go and helps the B group feel like they are improving.

If this is too formal, encourage the riders to use their voice and speak up _before_ they open a gap in front of themselves.

Ritch

ritcho said:

My advice would be to split the riders into an A and B group. Start out at a pace that is comfortable for everyone to take their turns, but as the speed increases, let the B group riders know that they can "sit out" their turns and the A group rotates amongst themselves at the front. This gives everyone a go and helps the B group feel like they are improving.

If this is too formal, encourage the riders to use their voice and speak up _before_ they open a gap in front of themselves.

Ritch

basic bunch etiquette, always, is : -

"keep your heads up" & "communicate",

do both and you will work it out.

Michael Warner said:

Hello all,

I ride with a fairly quick (32-33 avg, and rising) group on Sat mornings,
and we have a nagging problem with people who like to come out with
us but can barely keep up, and just hang onto the back instead of rotating.

When we reach the back of the rotation, we constantly have to look over
our shoulders to see if any of them want to rotate - sometimes they
do, or try and fail - before pulling over and moving up again. As a result,
we often have to waste energy pulling back into place, or end up in a long
single file, and start again.

Should I say something before we set out? There are three slower
groups behind us that they could join. I don't mind them using the air
behind us, but ISTM that they should shout 'go' or something to indicate
that they're not rotating. And if they don't even have the puff to do that,
maybe they should drop off :-)

Any opinions? This isn't a formal training ride or anything, so I don't
want to come across as a fascist.

Michael

--
Home page: http://members.westnet.com.au/mvw

What normally happens is that when people are rolling back from the front just get the guys at the back who aren't talking turns to drop back and leave a gap for them to slot into. They could call out "jump in" or something similar to make it clear. Maybe mention that before the start...

Adam

Michael Warner said:

Hello all,

I ride with a fairly quick (32-33 avg, and rising) group on Sat mornings,
and we have a nagging problem with people who like to come out with
us but can barely keep up, and just hang onto the back instead of rotating.

Are these people known to you, or random interlopers? If they're
known,
you can tell them if they can't do a turn, to sit off to the left and
leave room for you to roll through. If they're random wheelsuckers, you
can try
and tell them. You always need to check anyway, unless you're riding
a track or team time trial on a closed road, you never know who's snuck
into your bunch, and it's just as important a skill to know what's
going on
in your bunch (ie: keep your radar on) as it is to be able to pedal
well.

But, at the end of the day, every bunch gets interlopers and
wheelsuckers, and it's an important skill for you to learn how
to deal with them sitting off the back of a paceline. Remember
the bloke you're following and pay attention. 32-33km/h isn't
that quick, so you should have plenty of time to see what's
going on. You can always tell anyone to stay clear of the
rotation (which is something they need to learn too ...) if they're
not going to do a turn. That's not the same thing as telling them
to get off your bunch. Usually it's good manners to sit a length off
the back (you still get the draft there) if you're not going to work.

Quoted message said:

When we reach the back of the rotation, we constantly have to look over
our shoulders to see if any of them want to rotate - sometimes they
do, or try and fail - before pulling over and moving up again. As a result,
we often have to waste energy pulling back into place, or end up in a long
single file, and start again.

Sooner or later, everyone gets into a group that's going too
fast for them, and struggles. Usually after one or two fails,
a thinking rider will realise that they should maybe just
try and hang on and stay out of the way. If they're blowing up at that
speed and it's a once a week ride for them, they're probably doing
themselves more harm than good anyway. Ego's a funny thing though ...