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Gravel Bike

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Bike buying advice
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28 January 2015
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6 February 2015
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Viking55803
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  1. Yes, I know how the bike industry is always inventing new and better ways of getting us to shell out more money for bikes and equipment we don't need. The appearance of what are sometimes called gravel bikes, however, as ignited a yearning in me - and I think my reasoning about why I need a gravel bike are perfectly sound (at least for an old cyclist dude.)

    So I am a 66 year old cyclist who raced in the late 60's and 70's before returning to my home state in 1972 where I found my awesome hand-built Rickert road bike with tubular tires was useless. Mountain bikes had not been invented, and I lived 4 miles from the nearest paved road. I abandoned cycling in favor or running and x-country ski racing.

    Fast forward to 2008. I sprung for a perfectly lovely Specialized Rockhopper 29er Comp. I had owned a Fisher MTB back in the 80's, but not until the 29er come along did I feel really comfortable on a MTB. I've enjoyed it thoroughly but soon found that trail riding was a bit much for my advancing age, what with the trees and endos etc.

    In late 2012 I had quadruple bypass surgery. Not fun, but in my recovery lost a good deal of weight and started realizing those big hills around Duluth, where I now live, would be a lot easier on a road bike. I bought a Novara Strada - an entry level Shimano 105 equipped REI brand bike. It's a sweet bike, about 21 pounds and I upgraded the wheels and saddle and have put on a couple of thousand miles on it.

    The problem is the roads and bike paths I love to ride are either not in very good shape of include long stretches of gravel. Last year, I rode half my miles on my old Rockhopper. I don't like the MTB bars for rides longer than an hour and just generally am more comfortable on a drop-bar bike. My Rockhopper also weight 31 pounds. Enter the gravel bike: the offspring of my road bike mated with my mountain bike. I love the disc brakes on my MTB and most of the gravel bikes are now equipped with discs. The main thing is the wider fork clearance allowing for a 38 or even 40mm tire.

    The big question is how much I'm willing to spend. Both of my current bikes came in around $1,000, but I see this as my "retirement" bike (even though I've yet to actually retire) and I would be willing to go up to around $2,500. That opens up a lot of possibilities. One bike new for 2015 is the Jamis Renegade - a carbon framed model with Shimano 105 eleven speed:

    myjamis.combike.html

    The Raleigh Tamland is a nice steel framed model:

    raleighusa.combikes road gravel tamland tamland 2

    I like the Litespeed T5, titanium too, but that might bust the bank:

    litespeed.combike.asp

    There are others like the Niner RLT, but I am interested in your comments about this bicycle concept and feelings about steel, aluminum, titanium or carbon.

    At this point, the Jamis is the one that makes my heart thump!

  2. Back in the day, when we got bored with riding the same old pavement, we went looking for dirt roads to break things up. This was on our road racing bikes, and the only concession we'd make was fatter tires. Clement Paris-Roubaix silks and Vittoria Pave CGs were the tires of choice.

    It sounds like you're a little deeper into the woods, and dirt road riding will be more of the routine rather than a diversion. I think you'll get a lot of utility out of this kind of bike. Personally, I'm not that sure about disc brakes being necessary, but since you'd be jumping in with both feet I'd say why not?

    One of the guys I work with has a Tamland, and he loves it. This is one category that Raleigh hits really well, if you like steel or aluminum frames. For Jamis to offer a carbon frame at this price, though is remarkable. Along similar lines, but a couple hundred more bucks, is Trek's Domane 4.3 Disc.

    Personally, this is my idea of a gravel racer, the LeMond Washoe.
    [IMG]cyclingforums.com700[/IMG]
    Call me old-fashioned.

  3. I forgot to mention the LeMond. He lives here in Minnesota and after the way he has been treated by certain big brand/big ego consortiums, I would be happy to support his business. We don't have a dealer in my neck of the woods, but it is a bike I've looked at. If I remember right, the gearing is a bit strange, but other than that has gotten rave reviews.

    Thanks,
    Gary

  4. Greg's using direct selling by internet as he is trying to develop a dealer network. I agree, the gearing is a bit long-legged for me, especially at the upper end. As it is, my 50/11 comes into service only at speeds greater than 33 mph.

  5. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by oldbobcat
    Personally, this is my idea of a gravel racer, the LeMond Washoe.
    [IMG]cyclingforums.com700[/IMG]
    Call me old-fashioned.


    Wow!

    I do realize we are living in the 21st Century, but I can't quite wrap my mind around a bike with an Ultegra Di2 drivetrain as being "old-fashioned" in most cycling circles ...

    FWIW. I think that unless a person is a sponsored rider (who does not have to pay for their own stuff), then a bike which has a Carbon Fiber frame which is going to be ridden on a regular basis on gravel roads is definitely conspicuous consumption because I suspect the underside of the downtube would suffer a great number of indignities on the gravel roads which I have been on which a steel-or-Titanium frame would be able to better endure ...

    Is the premium for Titanium worth it?

    Maybe, maybe not ...

    • BTW. If I had money-to-burn for a custom frameset then I would probably consider a WATERFORD ... or (because I'm "okay" with standard frame sizing), to save-some-coin I would possibly just get a GUNNAR ... of course, I would equip either with CAMPAGNOLO shifters + a mix of other components as I deemed suitable!

    Consequently, of the three bikes, I would be inclined toward the Raleigh Tamland, or a similar bike ...

  6. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by Viking55803
    The problem is the roads and bike paths I love to ride are either not in very good shape of include long stretches of gravel. Last year, I rode half my miles on my old Rockhopper. I don't like the MTB bars for rides longer than an hour and just generally am more comfortable on a drop-bar bike. My Rockhopper also weight 31 pounds. Enter the gravel bike: the offspring of my road bike mated with my mountain bike. I love the disc brakes on my MTB and most of the gravel bikes are now equipped with discs. The main thing is the wider fork clearance allowing for a 38 or even 40mm tire.


    FYI. You/(anyone!) can install DROP handlebars on almost any bike (these all started as a FLAT Bar bikes) ...
    [CENTER] [/CENTER]
    [CENTER][IMG]cyclingforums.com700[/IMG][/CENTER]
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    This vintage GIANT "Sports Touring" bike has clearance for 700x52 29er tires (front & rear) when fenders are not mounted ...
    [CENTER] [/CENTER]
    [CENTER][IMG]cyclingforums.com700[/IMG] [/CENTER]

    This bike started life as a FLAT BAR "Hybrid" ...
    [CENTER] [/CENTER]
    [CENTER][IMG]cyclingforums.com700[/IMG][/CENTER]
    [CENTER] [/CENTER]
    Of course, this bike would normally have FLAT BARS ... [CENTER] [/CENTER]
    [CENTER][IMG]cyclingforums.com700[/IMG][/CENTER]
    [CENTER] [/CENTER]
    And, this 26er MTB frame has been re-fitted with 700c wheels + a Carbon Fiber Road fork (as pictured, the weight is just under 20 lbs. -- larger tires would push the weight over 20 lbs.-- a different crankset & misc. would probably lower weight to closer to 19 lbs.) ...
    [CENTER] [/CENTER]
    [CENTER][IMG]cyclingforums.com700[/IMG][/CENTER]

    Minimally, you can install clip-ons ($30 +/--) ... [CENTER] [/CENTER]
    [CENTER][IMG]cyclingforums.com700[/IMG][/CENTER]

    BTW. If the suspension fork on your ROCKHOPPER 29er COMP were replaced with a rigid "touring" fork, then you would reduce the bike's total weight by several pounds ...

    And, smaller-than-29er tires/tubes would reduce the weight, further.

  7. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by alfeng

    Wow!

    I do realize we are living in the 21st Century, but I can't quite wrap my mind around a bike with an Ultegra Di2 drivetrain as being "old-fashioned" in most cycling circles ...

    Personally, I'd buy the frame and build it up with SRAM Force, but they didn't have a photo of that. But you get the idea.

  8. oldbobcat said:

    Personally, I'd buy the frame and build it up with SRAM Force, but they didn't have a photo of that. But you get the idea.

    Roger, that ...

  9. Thanks for the discussion. The options mentioned are one's I have also considered - the first step being to replace my front shock on the MTB with a rigid fork. I keep the thing locked out permanently anyway. Does anyone have a specific suggestion for a rigid 29er fork? I'm a bit confused about the specs of a replacement for a Rockshox Tora.

    I've looked at Gunnar and Waterford. The idea of building up a bike is very appealing to me - there are a ton of gruppos on Ebay - but honestly I would want help from a decent mechanic. I've done everything from build wheels to overhaul hubs and bottom brackets, but that was a long time ago.

    I used to ride nothing but Campagnolo, of course, but have zero experience with their modern indexed products. The Shimano and SRAM components I currently use work almost flawlessly when adjusted and lubed properly.

    Lots of good ideas to dream away during the depths of winter here.

  10. Your local dealer who has an account with QBP can get Surley rigid forks for a 29er for about $110, the Krampus or the Karate Monkey, although the Monkey is currently out of stock. Right now I don't know whether they're steel or aluminum. Also, carbon forks by Ritchey, Whiskey Parts, and MRP are also available, for a lot more dinero. Take your bike to the shop so they can make sure what they order will fit.

  11. oldbobcat said:

    Your local dealer who has an account with QBP can get Surley rigid forks for a 29er for about $110, the Krampus or the Karate Monkey, although the Monkey is currently out of stock. Right now I don't know whether they're steel or aluminum. Also, carbon forks by Ritchey, Whiskey Parts, and MRP are also available, for a lot more dinero. Take your bike to the shop so they can make sure what they order will fit.

    FWIW. Depending on the size of your 29er's frame + the crank length + how you ride, you may want to consider a NON-Corrected (for 29er) fork ... Here is a 29er frame which I test fitted with a "standard" fork (no headset installed, so that's why there is limited clearance with the downtube) which I deemed to be unnecessary after I found out that the my old GIANT frame could accommodate 700x52 tires ... [CENTER] [IMG ALT=""]http://www.cyclingforums.com/content/type/61/id/306103/width/350/height/700[/IMG] [/CENTER] Of course, the immediate advantage is that the head tube angle becomes LESS SLACK -- by my reckoning, ~72.5º (as pictured) ...

    [LIST] A mixed dis-/advantage is the BB drop is increased (probably an additional 10+mm) .... Unfortunately, with the non-corrected rigid fork, BOTH the eccentric BB shell AND the pinch bolts on the particular frame may-or-may-not take away too much ground clearance (that would probably NOT be an issue with most 29er frames which were mated to a "standard" 700c fork).


    BTW. I believe that ALL Surly forks are steel & have straight 1 1/8" steerers ...

  12. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by Viking55803
    I've looked at Gunnar and Waterford. The idea of building up a bike is very appealing to me - there are a ton of gruppos on Ebay - but honestly I would want help from a decent mechanic. I've done everything from build wheels to overhaul hubs and bottom brackets, but that was a long time ago.

    I used to ride nothing but Campagnolo, of course, but have zero experience with their modern indexed products. The Shimano and SRAM components I currently use work almost flawlessly when adjusted and lubed properly.


    Another option... buy used and then upgrade/replace as necessary. There are tons of garage queens that show up on eBay and Craigslist. I'm working on my 3rd Frankenbike build. Start with a good high quality 26'r bike or frame and rebuild. The first was an '89 Stumpjumper Comp with Tange Prestige tubing. Next was a Trek 930 with triple butted Tru Temper OX. Latest project is a GT Karakoram...

    If you're not into the 26'er Frankenbikes, another avenue to consider is to pickup a gently used cyclocross bike. Lots of people getting into CX these days and lots of people selling their bikes to upgrade or to find another less painful sport. Older CX bikes tend to have more tire clearance which would allow use of a 40c or wider tire. Many of the new carbon CX frames have minimal clearance for the 33c race tires and mud. One can easly get a CX bike under 20 pounds. In comparison the 26er Frankenbikes are 25 to 30 pound beasts.

    The new "gravel bikes" are mostly CX bikes with slightly longer wheelbases and room for larger tires. Singular and Salsa also have drop bar gravel bikes which will fit true 29'er tires (ex. Salsa Fargo which fits a 2.4" tire).

    Touring bikes also make great gravel bikes. I've got a Soma Saga that is incredibly stable and smooth. At 30 pounds it's a beast, but that's mostly my doing as I built it for commuting. The frame and fork are about 5.5 pounds so one could build a Saga frame with race parts and get the weight under 20 pounds.

    Frame material is one of those religious topics. All have their pluses and minuses so which will be best for you will depend on the intended use and what you believe is most important. Steel is great but paint chips and rust can kill a frame. An $16 can of frame saver will prevent internal rust for a long time, and frankly where/how I ride rust really won't be a problem for me. Titanium doesn't corrode but is expensive and can be too stiff. Stainless steel, like titanium, is difficult to work with so the frames are very pricey. Carbon rides great but really muddy tires can grind thru the tubes - saw this first hand. Other things which affect frame choice: rider weight, accessories (fenders, racks, etc), wheel size (700c? 650b? 26'er? 29'er?)

    As for parts, IMO all of the major groups are excellent. Campy is the most expensive to purchase and own. Sure, I can (and do) rebuild the rear shifter when it wears out but my SRAM and Shimano rear shifters just keep working. The big question - what ratios do you want/need? If you're mostly in the flats and rollers then I'd suggest a 34/50 compact crankset and a rear derailleur to work with your chosen cassette. Shimano has an 11x32 11spd cassette which gives a rather low ratio. To go lower I'd suggest a road triple as going to mountain parts introduces all kinds of complexities if you're wanting drop bars. If OTOH you're fine with a flat bar, then the mountain parts offer much lower gear ratios (eg. 48/36/26 triple and 11x36 cassette).

    Happy shopping,
    Greg

  13. How does a gravel bike differ from a regular cross bike? I've seen a few bikes categorized as monstercross - is that like a gravel bike?

    Duluth is about as hilly of a spot as you can find in MN. Shedding significant pounds off your ride will make climbing more pleasant.

    I still get up that way once or twice a year. The famous Munger trail still has short sections of gavel after the historic floods in 2012. Road bikes can navigate them OK, but my cross bike with 35c tires felt much better.

    Are you considering fenders? I have a set on my cross bike. It is not carbon, but it deflects kicked up dirt and debris and keeps the drivetrain and frame a bit cleaner.

  14. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by maydog
    How does a gravel bike differ from a regular cross bike? I've seen a few bikes categorized as monstercross - is that like a gravel bike?


    Gravel bikes seem to include pretty much everything from carbon road bikes with 25c to 28c tires all the way to bikes like the "monstercross" Salsa Fargo which will fit a 2.4" 29'er tire. The industry interpretation for a gravel bike is a CX bike with slightly longer wheelbase (more stable) and slightly lower bottom bracket. Touring bikes, as marketed by bicycle manufacturers, typically add another cm or two to the wheelbase of a gravel bike.

    I've yet to see an agreed upon definition but in general the monstercross bikes are just a beefy cyclocross bike - longer wheelbase and much larger tires that exceed the UCI cyclocross maximum of 33c. Some of the vintage 26" rigid mountain bikes have been converted to drop bars and are called monstercross. Other bikes frequently referred to as monstercross: Singular Gryphon, Surly Cross Check, Soma Wolverine and Salsa Vaya. Here's a review of the Black Mountain Cycles "monstercross" that highlights some of the features that differentiate MC from CX and touring:
    bicycletimesmag.comreview black mountain cycles monster cross

    Cheers,
    Greg

  15. To me, the lower bottom bracket, for comfort and stability, and more versatile gearing than on a cross bike are key. Cyclocross race gearing is typically narrow for short climbs and short, technical descents. A road rider, even on dirt roads, needs more flexibility here.

    Otherwise, it boils down to how much tire, stability, and brake performance do you think you need? And different riders have different needs and preferences.

  16. Quote:Originally Posted by Viking55803 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]
    I used to ride nothing but Campagnolo, of course, but have zero experience with their modern indexed products. The Shimano and SRAM components I currently use work almost flawlessly when adjusted and lubed properly. .

    BTW/FYI. It is very true that Campagnolo components generally cost more, but if you were to look closely at the pictures of my bikes which are posted (above) you will see that the Campagnolo shifters are mated to Shimano rear derailleurs ... [IMG ALT=""]http://www.cyclingforums.com/content/type/61/id/271659/width/350/height/700[/IMG]

    • as pictured, the Giant & the "red" Hybrid have XTR 950 rear derailleurs
    • the 26er has a adapted-to-fit-a-standard-derailleur-hanger Shimano SAINT rear derailleur
    • the last ("silver"😉 bike has an Ultegra 6500 rear derailleur

    All four bikes currently have 9-speed Shimano Cassettes, but wheels with a 10-speed Campagnolo/-compatible hubs & Cassettes could certainly be used.

  17. Alfeng - any chance you have a similar compatibility chart for front derailleurs and shifters? I'm starting a new Frankenbike project with a vintage mtb frame but would like to go with 10spd Campy or Shimano brifters on front and a triple crankset. A couple of the issues:
    - Cable pull between mountain and road front derailleurs
    - Chainline is 45mm for road and 50mm for mountain bikes/parts

    I've found a couple links to a Shimano compatibility table but alas the links were stale as the file no longer exists at that location.

    Worst case I know the bar-end shifters will work, but I was hoping to use brifters.

    Thx,
    Greg

  18. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by retrogrinch
    Alfeng - any chance you have a similar compatibility chart for front derailleurs and shifters? I'm starting a new Frankenbike project with a vintage mtb frame but would like to go with 10spd Campy or Shimano brifters on front and a triple crankset. A couple of the issues:
    - Cable pull between mountain and road front derailleurs
    - Chainline is 45mm for road and 50mm for mountain bikes/parts

    I've found a couple links to a Shimano compatibility table but alas the links were stale as the file no longer exists at that location.

    Worst case I know the bar-end shifters will work, but I was hoping to use brifters.

    Thx,
    Greg


    I do not know of a compatibility chart, per se, for Shimano front derailleurs ...

    FWIW. I think that a compatibility chart for Shimano front derailleurs isn't necessary ...

    • What I have found is Shimano Road shifters only work with the same generation Road front derailleurs AND chains ...
    • And, that Shimano MTB shifters only work with the same generation front derailleurs AND chains ...
    • BUT, I have only sampled a few unauthorized Shimano-Shimano combinations.

    On the other hand, I have found that ANY Campagnolo LEFT HAND shifter will work with ANY brand of cable actuated front derailleur ...

    • because nothing-is-sacred, I have been planning to replace an Ultegra 6500 front derailleur which I currently have on one vintage (c1978) Fuji frame with an old, Campagnolo push-rod ("Matchbox"😉 front derailleur!?! I'll probably test it with a push-rod SIMPLEX front derailleur, first, just for reference.

    Because the previously pictured Mongoose is a 26er MTB frame, it was set up with an 8-speed, top pull XT FD-737 front derailleur & an Ultegra 6500 rear derailleur ...
    [CENTER] [/CENTER]
    [CENTER][IMG]cyclingforums.com700[/IMG][/CENTER]

    Although the bike, above, is set up as a Double, the particular frame needs a 118mm Octalink or ISIS BB spindle which would typically be used with a Triple crankset to achieve clearance for the 52t outer chainring and the chainstay. Consequently, when I updated the frame with a MegaExo crankset, I needed to choose a Triple (there IS clearance for a 53t chainring).

    A few years ago, I was thinking it would be nice if I could use one of my vintage Dura Ace (c1980) front derailleurs, so I tried it on the Giant ...
    [CENTER] [/CENTER]
    [CENTER][IMG]cyclingforums.com700[/IMG][/CENTER]
    [CENTER] [/CENTER]
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    It worked without any problems.

    • Both of the pictured bikes use 4-clicks to shift from the inner to the outer chainring with their respective front derailleurs & a 9-speed Shimano chain ... the first click really just tensions the derailleur cable a little more before the derailleur cage actually starts to move.

    BTW. I found that Campagnolo shifters + a 9-speed Shimano chain seems to work well with almost everything!?!

    • I found that with a bike in a workstand, a 9-speed Shimano chain ALSO worked with an 11-speed Campagnolo Cassette ... road test to follow.

    Of course, the Campagnolo shifters can be used with more recent Shimano front derailleurs.

  19. Quoted post said:

    Originally Posted by alfeng
    On the other hand, I have found that ANY Campagnolo LEFT HAND shifter will work with ANY brand of cable actuated front derailleur ...

    • because nothing-is-sacred, I have been planning to replace an Ultegra 6500 front derailleur which I currently have on one vintage (c1978) Fuji frame with an old, Campagnolo push-rod ("Matchbox"😉 front derailleur!?! I'll probably test it with a push-rod SIMPLEX front derailleur, first, just for reference.

    -snip-

    BTW. I found that Campagnolo shifters + a 9-speed Shimano chain seems to work well with almost everything!?!

    • I found that with a bike in a workstand, a 9-speed Shimano chain ALSO worked with an 11-speed Campagnolo Cassette ... road test to follow.

    Of course, the Campagnolo shifters can be used with more recent Shimano front derailleurs.


    I hadn't considered Campy for the front shifters, but they definitely should work fine for the same reason the ratchet bar end shifters work.

    If I were to go with Campy 10spd brifters, what rear derailleur would you recommend? Crankset will be 48-36-26 and I'd like an 11x32 Shimano/SRAM cassette?

    I do have a medium cage Chorus 10spd derailleur sitting in a box but I think that would limit my gearing...

  20. retrogrinch said:

    I hadn't considered Campy for the front shifters, but they definitely should work fine for the same reason the ratchet bar end shifters work. If I were to go with Campy 10spd brifters, what rear derailleur would you recommend?  Crankset will be 48-36-26 and I'd like an 11x32 Shimano/SRAM cassette? I do have a medium cage Chorus 10spd derailleur sitting in a box but I think that would limit my gearing...

    FWIW. For a Triple crankset + 11-32 Cassette, my preference/recommendation is any "normal pull" XT rear derailleur with an SGS ("super grand sport"/"really longt"😉 cage or an Octalink-vintage XTR rear derailleur (that's both an aesthetic preference & a forever-preference-for-me because that's what I have handy to use!). FYI. During a moment of less-than-profound curiosity, what I belatedly determined last year was that I could shift onto the 34t Cog of a 12-34 9-speed XTR Cassette without any effort when I tried the wheel-and-Cassette in the fore mentioned, vintage Fuji frame which had a Campagnolo MEDIUM CAGE rear derailleur!.

    [LIST] WTF?!? For over a decade, I mistakenly presumed that a Campagnolo rear derailleur could not handle a 34t Cog because of what was inferred by the good folks at SANTANA ... Trust, but verify!!!


    The Fuji which was used for the test had a 53/39 Crankset and the medium cage was just right as far as chain wrap.

    [LIST] The medium cage Campagnolo rear derailleur has the same length cage as a Long Cage (GS) Shimano ROAD rear derailleur ... but, Campagnolo's rear derailleurs (the 10-speed ones which I have) have 10t pulley wheels instead of the 11t pulley wheels which Shimano uses.


    Unfortunately, if you want to use almost any Triple Crankset + MTB Cassette then you will need a LONG CAGE Campagnolo rear derailleur ... or, a normal pull, Shimano SGS XT/XTR rear derailleur. You may-or-may-not need to add links to the chain since it seems that most chains now presume that they will be used with a short chainstay Road bike.

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