Gradient Horror (Newbie)

"Elisa Francesca Roselli" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

OK, so I'm slowly expanding and practicing my new cycling skills to get them up to a level to be
able to commute to work at a new site.

Last Sunday I tried my first "long" trip, of some 6 km or about half the way to work. That was the
first time I learned the trick of coasting as the way out has some long clear routes with a
suitable slight tilt. It took me about 1 and a half hours, many times longer than going by public
transport/on foot, but that may improve a little eventually.

The trip is about 10 km and the route I have chosen follows the line of a suburban train so that
parts of it can be done by taking the bike directly onto the train to shorten the voyage.

However, the last 2.5 kms veer off from where the train passes and turn uphill at what must be the
one of the most alarming gradients I have seen in a sleepy suburb of a major Western city. Parts
of it must be close to 40 degrees - even just walking it I feel like I'm falling off the asphalt
into the sky behind me! Moreover, this part of the trip takes through a wood and is quite windey
in some parts. The road has no sidewalk, and only one narrow lane in both directions. In most
parts the midline is solid because the snaking and sloping make it impossible to see oncoming
cars. Traffic is light, but only my peeled ears tell me when something is coming

This sounds like a dangerous section for cyclists . You are right to be cautious.

Quoted message said:

Now here's a dilemna. There is no way I can get _up_ that hill on a normal bike. Even just pushing
it could probably kill me. So it has passed my mind to invest in an electrical assisted bike
(pedelec). There are some cool models available in France where the idea seems to be reaching
critical mass (even Renault makes some).

The pedelec is very heavy, which makes it harder to lift and carry (portage) when you need to do so.

Quoted message said:

A pedelec could get me up that hill. But how the hell do I get _down_?!!

OK, I'm a wimp. I utterly loathe the sensation of speed (which is why the mere concept of coasting
took me so long to grasp). Even in 2nd gear I tend to be on the brakes the whole time. Not only
would the acceleration be of the kind that only roller-coaster lovers could stomach, but there
would also be the centrifugal force to contend with on the bends.

You can overcome your fear of speed. Speed is scary at first because it feels like you're out of
control. You should try to find some mild hills in a safe riding area (such as a large park or
deserted road) and practice coasting down them, faster and faster, to get used to the feeling of
speed. Try your brakes to affirm that they do, indeed, stop the bike.

It's a good idea to practice by simulating dangerous situations, emergency stops, emergency turns,
fast dismounts, etc. You will want to have good riding skills because commuting can be dangerous at
times. You never know just what might happen in traffic situations, especially in bad weather.

Quoted message said:

What if the brakes chose that moment to give out? In the autumn, the woods will cover the pavement
with lots of gooey, slippery decomposing leaves; in the winter there could be ice. Plus the
impossibility of seeing if any cars are coming along, and the impossiblity of the cars seeing me.
And cars could not overtake me because of the solid midline.

If I were you, I would find a different route. I know you said that's not possible; but this sounds
very dangerous, even in good weather. Can you use a mountain bike with knobby tires and ride off the
road? That might be an option. Maybe there are trails nearby?

Quoted message said:

Let's say I just decide to walk that part of the trek downhill.

You say there are no sidewalks? Will you be walking beside the road, in the grass?

Quoted message said:

A pedelec, necessary for the ascent, is twice as heavy as a normal bike. There's still the problem
of getting down since I can see the thing dragging away from my hands under gravitational force
like a huge and aggressive dog, or taking it with me.. And another problem with walking is the
creep factor. The segment is extremely lonely, there are lots of hiding places for werewolves
(meant figuratively but not fancifully), and no-one to hear you scream. I wouldn't like to be
flailing away under my feeble human power and have someone following or stalking me - I'd have
Sitting Duck written all over me, and pedelecs make cool theft targets for added motivation.

From your perspective, there is nothing good about this section of road. Are you being realistic
about the possibility of being assaulted by a thief (or worse)? I agree that walking a heavy pedelec
down such a grade doesn't seem like a good idea.

Quoted message said:

There is, however, no other route. I've been researching this for months. Most cars access the
site by motorway, on which bicycles are not allowed. If I want the security of the railway to
cover me in my failing moments, whatever path I choose is going to go up that hill.

You will need to leave the railway security behind if you want to commute by bicycle. I can't think
of any other conclusion. (Having not seen the maps, of course.)

Quoted message said:

Am I being unrealistic about cycling this voyage?

If you want healthy exercise and a little adventure each day, then you should commute. Your safety
is a primary concern: Narrow, curvy, hilly roads with poor visibility are dangerous. You could be
hit by a driver talking on a mobile phone, not paying attention, etc. May I suggest that you buy a
tall orange safety flag and flashing taillights for your bicycle. You should also wear bright colors
while cycling, to help drivers see you.

My suggestion is for you to ride the entire distance of the commute several times, and become
accustomed to it. Maybe you will find that there are other routes that you didn't know about.

Ride Safely,

Barry Sanders

"Elisa Francesca Roselli" wrote

Quoted message said:

OK, so I'm slowly expanding and practicing my new cycling skills to get them up to a level to be
able to commute to work at a new site.

Last Sunday I tried my first "long" trip, of some 6 km or about half the way to work. That was the
first time I learned the trick of coasting as the way out has some long clear routes with a
suitable slight tilt. It took me about 1 and a half hours, many times longer than going by public
transport/on foot, but that may improve a little eventually.

The trip is about 10 km and the route I have chosen follows the line of a suburban train so that
parts of it can be done by taking the bike directly onto the train to shorten the voyage.

However, the last 2.5 kms veer off from where the train passes and turn uphill at what must be the
one of the most alarming gradients I have seen in a sleepy suburb of a major Western city. Parts
of it must be close to 40 degrees - even just walking it I feel like I'm falling off the asphalt
into the sky behind me! Moreover, this part of the trip takes through a wood and is quite windey
in some parts. The road has no sidewalk, and only one narrow lane in both directions. In most
parts the midline is solid because the snaking and sloping make it impossible to see oncoming
cars. Traffic is light, but only my peeled ears tell me when something is coming

Now here's a dilemna. There is no way I can get _up_ that hill on a normal bike. Even just pushing
it could probably kill me. So it has passed my mind to invest in an electrical assisted bike
(pedelec). There are some cool models available in France where the idea seems to be reaching
critical mass (even Renault makes some).

A pedelec could get me up that hill. But how the hell do I get _down_?!!

OK, I'm a wimp. I utterly loathe the sensation of speed (which is why the mere concept of coasting
took me so long to grasp). Even in 2nd gear I tend to be on the brakes the whole time. Not only
would the acceleration be of the kind that only roller-coaster lovers could stomach, but there
would also be the centrifugal force to contend with on the bends. What if the brakes chose that
moment to give out? In the autumn, the woods will cover the pavement with lots of gooey, slippery
decomposing leaves; in the winter there could be ice. Plus the impossibility of seeing if any cars
are coming along, and the impossiblity of the cars seeing me. And cars could not overtake me
because of the solid midline.

Let's say I just decide to walk that part of the trek downhill. A pedelec, necessary for the
ascent, is twice as heavy as a normal bike. There's still the problem of getting down since I can
see the thing dragging away from my hands under gravitational force like a huge and aggressive
dog, or taking it with me.. And another problem with walking is the creep factor. The segment is
extremely lonely, there are lots of hiding places for werewolves (meant figuratively but not
fancifully), and no-one to hear you scream. I wouldn't like to be flailing away under my feeble
human power and have someone following or stalking me - I'd have Sitting Duck written all over me,
and pedelecs make cool theft targets for added motivation.

There is, however, no other route. I've been researching this for months. Most cars access the
site by motorway, on which bicycles are not allowed. If I want the security of the railway to
cover me in my failing moments, whatever path I choose is going to go up that hill.

Am I being unrealistic about cycling this voyage?

Elisa Roselli Paris, France (well actually Massy, Palaiseau, Villebon and Les Ulis ...)

Is there a sign on this road telling motorists the gradient? It should be at the top, for drivers
going downhill to see.

A pedelec would not only be expensive and heavy (difficult to carry in and out of your apartment,
etc.), it probably would not do very well going up the hill you describe. Remember that climbing a
hill will drain the pedelec's batteries far faster than travelling on level ground. A bike with
lower gears (3 chainrings/front sprockets instead of 1 or 2 might be a better investment.

Motorists where I live routinely cross a solid center line (midline) to pass a bicyclist with
adequate clearance even though it is technically illegal, and I saw motorists do the same in France.
It's acceptable almost everywhere to cross a solid center line in order to pass an extremely slow
vehicle, as long as it is done carefully. Is there a shoulder (verge) that you could ride onto if
necessary to let a car past, even if it meant stopping your bike entirely?

Isn't there enough car traffic to sweep leaves away and melt the ice? If you're going uphill in the
morning you should be moving slowly enough to see the icy spots and avoid them, and you'll know
where they are in the evening if they haven't melted by then. Besides, winter is months from now, so
worry about it then.

I'm not sure if you're being unrealistic or if you just need to improve your cycling skills and self
confidence a little.
--
mark

Elisa Francesca Roselli <[email hidden]> wrote:
: However, the last 2.5 kms veer off from where the train passes and turn uphill at what must be the
: one of the most alarming gradients I have seen in a sleepy suburb of a major Western city. Parts
: of it must be close to 40 degrees - even just walking it I feel like I'm falling off the asphalt
: into the sky behind me!

Hmm is that 40 degrees of banking or 40 degrees of hill classification (a gain of 40 m for each 100
m travelled laterally)?

It sounds daunting indeed. I wouldn't probably enjoy riding it... Maybe you can take the train for
the last 2.5 km?

: Now here's a dilemna. There is no way I can get _up_ that hill on a normal bike. Even just pushing
: it could probably kill me. So it has passed my mind to invest in an electrical assisted bike
: (pedelec). There are some cool models available in France where the idea seems to be reaching
: critical mass (even Renault makes some).

How much are pedelecs? I started thinking this could be the territory for tadpole recumbent trikes -
low to the ground, two wheels in front, one in the back. They are expensive though, and if you get
one with electric assist, even more expensive... Trikes tend to be quite heavy as well.

A tadpole trike has great stability, it's very difficult to fall unless you are maneuvering. It is
trivial to climb hills at a very low a pace. Going downhill would probably feel very safe.

If you see this as interesting, be sure to make enough research. Trikes might have some issues I'm
not aware off - what if it loses traction and starts to slide, or something... It is possible to
roll over your trike if you hit an object or maneuver too hard for your points of balance.

--
Risto Varanka | helsinki.fihpv.htmlOpen ↗ varis at no spam please iki fi

Quoted message said:

Elisa Francesca Roselli <[email hidden]> wrote:
: However, the last 2.5 kms veer off from where the train passes and turn uphill at what must be
: the one of the most alarming gradients I have seen in a sleepy suburb of a major Western city.
: Parts of it must be close to 40 degrees - even just walking it I feel like I'm falling off the
: asphalt into the sky behind me!

Hmm is that 40 degrees of banking or 40 degrees of hill classification (a gain of 40 m for each
100 m travelled laterally)?

It sounds daunting indeed. I wouldn't probably enjoy riding it... Maybe you can take the train for
the last 2.5 km?

: Now here's a dilemna. There is no way I can get _up_ that hill on a normal bike. Even just
: pushing it could probably kill me. So it has passed my mind to invest in an electrical assisted
: bike (pedelec). There are some cool models available in France where the idea seems to be
: reaching critical mass (even Renault makes some).

How much are pedelecs? I started thinking this could be the territory for tadpole recumbent trikes
- low to the ground, two wheels in front, one in the back. They are expensive though, and if you
get one with electric assist, even more expensive... Trikes tend to be quite heavy as well.

A tadpole trike has great stability, it's very difficult to fall unless you are maneuvering. It is
trivial to climb hills at a very low a pace. Going downhill would probably feel very safe.

If you see this as interesting, be sure to make enough research. Trikes might have some issues I'm
not aware off - what if it loses traction and starts to slide, or something... It is possible to
roll over your trike if you hit an object or maneuver too hard for your points of balance.

Tadpole trikes are much more cumbersome than upright bicycles to get through doorways, up and down
stairs, etc. How much of a concern this is will depend on individual circumstances, obviously. Being
low to the ground will require extra caution in some circumstances, as sight lines will be
restricted. And yes, they are heavy and expensive compared to upright bicycles.

On the other hand, riding a tadpole trike is very relaxing - I just ignore [1] road hazards that
could lead to loss of balance on a bicycle. Braking is far superior to an upright bike as it is
limited by the traction of the TWO front tires, and requires much less skill in an emergency
situation.

I would say that one should have the same level for concern about loss of traction or rollover
accidents on a tadpole trike as when operating a motor vehicle - possible, but unlikely if operated
with proper discretion.

[1] Or run them over on purpose, just because I can. 🙂

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

B. Sanders said:

Can you use a mountain bike with knobby tires and ride off the road? That might be an option.
Maybe there are trails nearby?

Now, there's an idea. I'll check it out. I did see a trail leading off the road into the woods but I
have no idea where it goes.

Quoted message said:

You say there are no sidewalks? Will you be walking beside the road, in the grass?

No, I'd just be walking on the edge of the road, but I can walk much more narrowly and precisely
than I can cycle, so this takes up less space.

Quoted message said:

You will need to leave the railway security behind if you want to commute by bicycle. I can't
think of any other conclusion. (Having not seen the maps, of course.)

But until the hill, the railway provides the easiest and safest route - few cars, mild descent, etc.

Quoted message said:

If you want healthy exercise and a little adventure each day, then you should commute. Your safety
is a primary concern: Narrow, curvy, hilly roads with poor visibility are dangerous. You could be
hit by a driver talking on a mobile phone, not paying attention, etc. May I suggest that you buy a
tall orange safety flag and flashing taillights for your bicycle. You should also wear bright
colors while cycling, to help drivers see you.

Thing is, if we move to the new site it will add 2-3 hours of commuting to my working day whatever
option I choose. I need exercise and really don't have a lot of time for it if it cannot be grafted
on to an existing activity - i.e. either commuting to work or doing that hour on the exercise bike
in front of the TV. The latter is not only supremely boring but very constraining, especially since
with the commute I'll only be getting home by around 10 pm. The other exercise option I can think of
is to take the train up to the bottom of the hill and walk the last section. Walking uphill is good
aerobic too, after all. I've done it twice that way in just over an hour - really the best timing
for any of the possible options. I'm just not too keen on doing it in the dark - it will be dark
morning and evening for at least half the year.

I know an internet site that sells special reflective clothing that glows in lights like cats eyes
(www.glowdog.com if anyone's interested and no, I have no connection with them). I'm planning to get
a parka from them in some ghastly shade of yellow or orange for cycling. I still worry that my bag
covers most of my back, so the reflecting orange in that portion won't be visible. I'll check out
about the safety flag. I enquired about bright flashing lights at the LBS on Saturday. They said
that this article had been withdrawn from sale in France because the motorists found it distracting
to the point of being _un_safe.

Quoted message said:

My suggestion is for you to ride the entire distance of the commute several times, and become
accustomed to it. Maybe you will find that there are other routes that you didn't know about.

Good idea - especially your notion of cutting through the woods. Thanks for your response.

Elisa Roselli Paris, France

mark said:

I'm not sure if you're being unrealistic or if you just need to improve your cycling skills and
self confidence a little.

More self-confidence would certainly help and expand my options, but I do think that hill is rather
hairy. I _was_ passed by a cyclist as I walked it the other day (a gorgeous walk in good summer
weather). But he was built like he was a participant in the Tour de France doing a little last
minute practising, and I don't think I'll look anything like that in my current lifetime.

Elisa Roselli Paris, France

Quoted message said:

A tadpole trike has great stability, it's very difficult to fall unless you are maneuvering. It is
trivial to climb hills at a very low a pace. Going downhill would probably feel very safe.

If you see this as interesting, be sure to make enough research. Trikes might have some issues I'm
not aware off - what if it loses traction and starts to slide, or something... It is possible to
roll over your trike if you hit an object or maneuver too hard for your points of balance.

I did quite a bit of research on non-polluting transport options when my job started threatening
this relocation. Trikes are almost completely unavailable in France, although I did find a firm that
sells an electric conventional trike. The main issue is that they are not allowed on roads since
they are considered too wide (stupid, I know, especially with "vehicular" bike-riding). Also,
dealers won't carry them because they take up too much floor-space. Their main use is in enclosed
areas like parks or industrial sites, but in France you tend to be considered motor-deficient if you
can't ride a bicycle, which limits the market.

Still, I've never heard of a tadpole trike and they sound cool. I'll check out Ebay to see if I can
find a picture of one.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Elisa Roselli Paris, France

B. Sanders said:

Quoted message said:

My suggestion is for you to ride the entire distance of the commute

several

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

times, and become accustomed to it. Maybe you will find that there are other routes that you
didn't know about.

Elisa responded:

Quoted message said:

Good idea - especially your notion of cutting through the woods. Thanks

for your

Quoted message said:

response.

Route-planning on a bicycle is a strange thing. You will find yourself willingly adding many more km
than you would otherwise find necessary to bypass or avoid problematic situations like impossible
hills, motorway junctions, bad roads, etc. You really get to learn the ins and outs of your area!
[if ever lost anywhere, ask a proper vehicular cyclist for directions. you'll see what i mean].

BTW, don't be too scared of the speed. It's a neat sensation on the bike, and far more manageable
than you initially think. Going down a nice, smooth gradient & leaning into a few gentle curves is
one of the little joys of life, and heaven's way of repaying you for the grind up the hill.

don't forget, this is fun, too.

-Luigi

"Elisa Francesca Roselli" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thing is, if we move to the new site it will add 2-3 hours of commuting to

my

Quoted message said:

working day whatever option I choose.

I'm sure that this will be pure heresy, but have you considered either looking for a different job
or finding a place to live that is closer to your work? While this might seem ridiculous, especially
in this age of long commutes, but lots of people do make the move. I would rather do this than spend
an additional 3 hours a day commuting. I have kids that I'd rather be spending time with. I
purposely took a lower-paying job just so I could avoid a ridiculous commute.

Perhaps your situation is different, but it would have to be one hell of a job for me to make those
kinds of commutes!

-Buck

"Elisa Francesca Roselli" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Still, I've never heard of a tadpole trike and they sound cool. I'll check

out Ebay

Quoted message said:

to see if I can find a picture of one.

No need for Ebay. Take a look here:

bentrideronline.comTrikes%202002.htmOpen ↗

-Buck

Elisa Francesca Roselli said:

Last Sunday I tried my first "long" trip, of some 6 km... It took me about 1 and a half hours...

Elisa,

Does this 6 km include the killer hill you mention later? I applaud your efforts to find a way to
bike-commute to work and you've been asking plenty of good questions, but does it really take you
1.5 hours to go 6 km/4 miles? That's about as fast as a leisurely walk.

RFM
--
To reply, translate domain from l33+ 2p33|< to alpha. 4=a 0=o 3=e +=t

"Buck" <j u n k m a i l @ g a l a x y c o r p . c o m> a écrit dans le message news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm sure that this will be pure heresy, but have you considered either looking for a different job
or finding a place to live that is closer to your work? While this might seem ridiculous,
especially in this age of

long

Quoted message said:

commutes, but lots of people do make the move. I would rather do this than spend an additional 3
hours a day commuting. I have kids that I'd rather

be

Quoted message said:

spending time with. I purposely took a lower-paying job just so I could avoid a ridiculous
commute.

It's not heresy - as soon as I heard about the move I started looking for another job. But there is
_nothing_ out there in the IT sector. It has well and truly collapsed, and all the more so since
that, er, "patriotic" boycott of French products a few months ago. So the very few, miserable jobs
there are are either paid a third what I get for the same work, or are even more vilely situated (as
downsizing companies like my own scramble for cheaper localities ever farther out of town), or both.

Moving, on the other hand, is not an option. I only just moved into the new flat 18 months ago to be
near my work. I own this flat, it has an 18 year mortgage, and I have already invested much of my
scarce free time and creative juices to floor-to-ceiling redecoration in half of it. I have no
desire to live anywhere near Les Ulis, which is horrendously cut off from civilization (I did,
paradoxically, live there when I first took up this new job two years ago - the commute into Paris
if ever I wanted to go to a museum was 2 1/2 hours - longer than from Tours where I had lived
previously!). Moreover, I don't drive, so avoiding a commute literally means being in walking or
cycling distance from my job. By car, the trip, only about 10 km, scarcely takes 10 minutes, but I
don't have a car and won't have a car. I swore when I was 14 that I would never drive until cars
were completely non-polluting. Watching the climate disintegrate around me at a more tearing and
terrifying rate than even the most extreme Doomsday ecologists predicted back then, I feel now, more
than ever, a personal moral need to uphold that vow.

Elisa Roselli Paris (well, sort of), France

Elisa Francesca Roselli said:

But he was built like he was a participant in the Tour de France doing a little last minute
practising, and I don't think I'll look anything like that in my current lifetime.

You never know 😉 Keep up the cycling and maybe before long you'll wonder what ever scared you of
that hill. This may be a lot sooner than you think
--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

Elisa Francesca Roselli said:

But he was built like he was a participant in the Tour de France doing a little last minute
practising, and I don't think I'll look anything like that in my current lifetime.

Per Elmsäter said:

You never know 😉 Keep up the cycling and maybe before long you'll wonder what ever scared you of
that hill. This may be a lot sooner than you think

Yep. I've seen older people than you Elisa (including women) take on a diet and exercise program
with full commitment and go from fat to lean and strong in suprisingly little time.

Because you started learning to ride so much later than most people, the main thing for you to do
right now is just spend as much time on the real bike as you can. Practice will bring control.
Control will bring confidence.

I'm lean, built like a hill climber, ride regularly and I've been beat up hills by a guy that was
100 pounds overweight. Weight is not what's keeping you from going up hill. You can build strength
and conditioning as long as you just keep at it.

--Bill Davidson

Elisa Francesca Roselli said:

... Trikes are almost completely unavailable in France, although I did find a firm that sells an
electric conventional trike. The main issue is that they are not allowed on roads since they are
considered too wide (stupid, I know, especially with "vehicular" bike-riding)....

Finally, a real reason to dislike France. 🙁

A picture of my tadpole trike < ftp://www.ihpva.org/incoming/2002/df1a.jpg >.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 20:43:15 -0500, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]> from Mostly

Disorganized said:

A picture of my tadpole trike < ftp://www.ihpva.org/incoming/2002/df1a.jpg >.

Oh, how cute! Does it do any tricks?

(with apologies to that gas grill commercial)

--
home.sport.rr.comcuthuluOpen ↗ human rights = peace Here I am at the flea market but nobody is
buying my urine sample bottles ...
9:24:55 PM 7 July 2003

Fritz M said:

Does this 6 km include the killer hill you mention later? I applaud your efforts to find a way to
bike-commute to work and you've been asking plenty of good questions, but does it really take you
1.5 hours to go 6 km/4 miles? That's about as fast as a leisurely walk.

No, it doesn't include the hill, just part of the trip along the railway. I know I'm slow -
generally much slower on the bike than on foot. I stop at any intersection or traffic light to cross
as a pedestrian and I often stop and push when trying to find my way. After any particularly
adventurous stint, like down a hill for example, I have to get off to stop trembling - the anxiety
gives me a "tremblotte" throughout my whole body like an old person with Parkinson's. I also get out
of breath, and that day was particularly hot. And since all the walking parts involve pushing a
heavy bike they are even slower than walking along normally. So no, I'm not particularly worried
about the poor timing. It could improve once I've learned the "script" for that particular route -
where I'm actually going (I took two wrong turns), how to negotiate the intersections, where I can
do sidewalks, what corners are safe for stopping and starting, where to change gear etc.

Elisa Roselli Paris, France

Kevan Smith said:

On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 20:43:15 -0500, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]> from Mostly

Disorganized said:

A picture of my tadpole trike < ftp://www.ihpva.org/incoming/2002/df1a.jpg >.

Oh, how cute! Does it do any tricks?

(with apologies to that gas grill commercial)

I almost never watch any television, so I am not familiar with this reference.

As for tricks, I can lock up both front wheels (Avid mechanical disc brakes) at speed and
stay upright.

A rear suspended tadpole trike with fat heavy duty tires allows one to pretty much run over any
road hazards with impunity that could easily cause loss of balance on a single-track human
powered vehicle.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 03:35:20 -0500, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]> from Mostly

Disorganized said:

Kevan Smith said:

On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 20:43:15 -0500, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]> from Mostly

Disorganized said:

A picture of my tadpole trike < ftp://www.ihpva.org/incoming/2002/df1a.jpg >.

Oh, how cute! Does it do any tricks?

(with apologies to that gas grill commercial)

I almost never watch any television, so I am not familiar with this reference.

Well, it's not an insulting reference. It's a pretty funny commercial you can see on OLN during the
TdF, if you are watching it.

--
home.sport.rr.comcuthuluOpen ↗ human rights = peace a radio squashes before a dirty book worm
4:19:05 AM 8 July 2003