GPS for cycling use?

"Chris Eilbeck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I quite like to be able to check my odometer against a map version

of

Quoted message said:

the route I've taken after a ride. I also like to be able to check
the height profile. I've been considering either buying or

building a

Quoted message said:

simple GPS-based logger to save me having to remember the route.

I bought a Garmin eTrex Summit to do essentially that. The Summit hs
a built in barometer for more accurate elevation measuring. I felt
that elevations might be important to me on my bicycle. That tells
me where I have been, and, I suppose could tell me where I am now,
although perhaps knowing one's latitude and longitude, or even one's
grid reference, might not be that much more useful than just looking
around if you discover that you are lost. Unlike a satnav program
the gps won't tell me where to go next, but a paper map works pretty
well for that.

You then will find yourself wanting some kind of map program on your
computer, probably to take a scanned in map, and "georeferencing"
that map so that latitudes and longitudes, or grid references, or
whatever, can be matched between the map and the track of your gps
that you have recorded. You also need to ensure that both ends of
the connection between gps and computer are compatible. Some gps's
and some map programs don't know about USB yet, and some computers
don't have serial interfaces anymore.

An alternative approach is a gps on a card, slotting into a pda. You
still need a map program, of course. The gps/pda approach sometimes
comes as a package, but the maps are motorist oriented. There are
only two companies that make the maps for all the different car
navigation systems. Car navigation maps are different from OS maps -
they have to know about things like one way streets, and not letting
you turn left onto a cross street if you are on top of a flyover at
the time, and not routing you from Wensleydale to Swaledale via
Crackpot.

You might be interested in elevation data for your map. That exists,
free, on the internet, taken from the Shuttle Terrain Radar Mission
of a few years back.

Jeremy parker

I'm

Quoted message said:

not keen on the idea of writing on a map as I go so I was looking

for

Quoted message said:

something automatic to do the job. I don't need any fancy features
like mapping or colour display and I don't think I'll really need

to

Quoted message said:

use it as I go along so something small and cheap that I could just
put in the top of my pannier would be ideal. Does anyone know of
anything appropriate for this sort of use?

Chris
--
Chris Eilbeck

Chris Eilbeck said:

I quite like to be able to check my odometer against a map version of
the route I've taken after a ride. I also like to be able to check
the height profile. I've been considering either buying or building a
simple GPS-based logger to save me having to remember the route. I'm
not keen on the idea of writing on a map as I go so I was looking for
something automatic to do the job. I don't need any fancy features
like mapping or colour display and I don't think I'll really need to
use it as I go along so something small and cheap that I could just
put in the top of my pannier would be ideal. Does anyone know of
anything appropriate for this sort of use?

Almost any of the small hand held GPS units will record a track of where
you've been, with a massive number of data points along that track, and (one
or two cheap models excepted - do check that a PC data cable is an option on
any model you select!) download that track later to a PC. Most will support
recording multiple tracks (10 or 20 is typical) before the memory is
exhausted.

On my Garmin, the active track is not be filled with a days cycling of 100
miles+.

Either Garmin or Magellan models would do the job (and others).

The height data will be a bit less easy. GPS height data can be a bit
erratic, so if you want decent height data, you probably need a barometric
altimeter attached to the GPS.
Garmin make a few models smaller models which work well at this; Geko 301,
Etrex Summit, Etrex Vista, Etrex Vista C and Etrex Vista CX. Reports I
have read of Magellan models suggest their altimeter implementation doesn't
have the self-correcting tricks which Garmin pulls off to very good effect.

The Vista models are all mapping (and you said you didn't require that), and
if going that way, push the boat out for the CX.
The Summit was good in its day, but a bit dated now.
That leaves the Geko 301. A model which is quite well regarded by some
mountain climbing friends of mine.

The Geko is usually reported as good for around 8 hours on a set of AAA
rechargeables.

Any of the above models will be able to save their track records using
either MapSource (Garmin's PC interface program) or other 3rd party package.
MapSource can output its tracks and waypoints into GPX format (a standard
data form) or into GoogleEarth (3D model of the planet).

If you want to mount a GPS on the bars of a bike, then I do it via my
bar-bag (so detaches from bike with my bag). See
http://www.nigelcliffe.photobook.org.uk/c844879.html A Geko is
considerably smaller than the Vista-C which I own.

Unless you want to track heart-rates and cycling cadence, I'd avoid the
runner and cycling models which Garmin sell; many suffer from a problem of
being unable to display your current location in long-lat or UK-OS-Grid (or
anything else useful). This seems to be a massive shortfall in a GPS device.
They do record where you've been, but so do all the other basic normal
hand-held types.

- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

Nigel Cliffe said:

That leaves the Geko 301. A model which is quite well regarded by some
mountain climbing friends of mine.

I've got the Geko 201, more or less identical apart from it doesn't do the
elevation profile (although it does record elevation if you want to
download it to a PC later) and it's much cheaper. The 301 is the same size
and is available with a bike mount. I just bought the bike mount for mine a
couple of weeks ago and it the whole lost fits on the bar quite nicely in
the place of the bike computer.

Graeme

Graeme Dods said:

Nigel Cliffe said:

That leaves the Geko 301. A model which is quite well regarded by
some mountain climbing friends of mine.

I've got the Geko 201, more or less identical apart from it doesn't
do the elevation profile (although it does record elevation if you
want to download it to a PC later) and it's much cheaper. The 301 is
the same size and is available with a bike mount. I just bought the
bike mount for mine a couple of weeks ago and it the whole lost fits
on the bar quite nicely in the place of the bike computer.

The 201 is a decent bit of kit, but lacks the barometric altimeter, just
recording the GPS height profile, which tends to be less accurate by quite a
large margin.

However, see another post as to why a 201 might be a better answer as its a
lot cheaper than a 301.

- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

I said:

Chris Eilbeck said:

I quite like to be able to check my odometer against a map version of
the route I've taken after a ride. I also like to be able to check
the height profile. I've been considering either buying or building
a simple GPS-based logger .........

Almost any of the small hand held GPS units ...........

Quoted message said:

The height data will be a bit less easy. GPS height data can be a bit
erratic, so if you want decent height data, you probably need a
barometric altimeter attached to the GPS.
Garmin make a few models smaller models which work well at this; Geko
301, Etrex Summit, Etrex Vista, Etrex Vista C and Etrex Vista CX. Reports
I have read of Magellan models suggest their altimeter
implementation doesn't have the self-correcting tricks which Garmin
pulls off to very good effect.

An alternative approach to height data is to not worry about the GPS
recording it, and to rely on other mapping height data when downloading to
the PC.

Such an approach means cheaper devices without a barometric altimeter will
work nicely for you, such as Garmin Geko201 or many other devices.

There is some in the public domain which will show a height profile from a
GPS track by overlaying the track onto the height data; Google's various
mapping products for example.

Or there are commercial products which use the OS contour data (probably
more accurate); products such as Anquet, Tracklogs, MemoryMap. I have a
copy of Tracklogs for the area where I regularly cycle, and it will give an
elevation profile of any pre-planned route, or recorded track.
There advocates for each of the commercial mapping products, my own view is
that they are all slightly different, and you need to evaluate for yourself
(most offer a free download of a small area of the country) and also decide
on the cost of the map areas you might want.
Be warned that all have issued upgrades to their core software package which
have forced users to pay a second time for their original map data (perhaps
at a slight discount, but never the less, pay twice) if the user had reason
to upgrade (eg. adding the purchase of a new map area at a later date).
Therefore, purchase all the maps you might want in one go.

- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

Chris Eilbeck said:

I quite like to be able to check my odometer against a map version of
the route I've taken after a ride. I also like to be able to check
the height profile. I've been considering either buying or building a
simple GPS-based logger to save me having to remember the route. I'm
not keen on the idea of writing on a map as I go so I was looking for
something automatic to do the job. I don't need any fancy features
like mapping or colour display and I don't think I'll really need to
use it as I go along so something small and cheap that I could just
put in the top of my pannier would be ideal. Does anyone know of
anything appropriate for this sort of use?

Chris

I own a Garmin Geko 301. Will probably do everything you require.
If I was buying again I would probably buy one of the larger models.

1. Longer run time.
2. Would be able to attach an external attenna. This would allow the
GPS unit to be inside my rack bag and only the antenna outside. I
have also heard this arrangement being used skiing. The skier keeps
the GPS warm inside his coat. The antenna was attached to the outside
of the jacket.
3. A bag contained GPS would also allow easier attachment of an
external battery to allow 24hr operation for use in a 400km audax
without the need to swap batteries three/four times.
4. Some of the larger models have a higher number of trackpoints and
waypoints which could be necessary on a longer run time.

You can connect a portable computer to the GPS and log information
directly to the computer. This largely removes the limitations of a
basic unit. This combination is very powerful. Unfortunately the
battery limitations of most laptops/palm pilots etc are worse than the
GPS.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...

Quoted message said:

Chris Eilbeck said:

I quite like to be able to check my odometer against a map version of
the route I've taken after a ride. I also like to be able to check
the height profile. I've been considering either buying or building a
simple GPS-based logger to save me having to remember the route. I'm
not keen on the idea of writing on a map as I go so I was looking for
something automatic to do the job. I don't need any fancy features
like mapping or colour display and I don't think I'll really need to
use it as I go along so something small and cheap that I could just
put in the top of my pannier would be ideal. Does anyone know of
anything appropriate for this sort of use?

I bought a gps so our family could go geocaching
(http://www.geocaching.com), so while the criteria for purchase was
slightly different, I soon bought a handlerbar mount for it and also use
it on the bike. I finally decided on a Garmin GPS60
(http://www.garmin.com/products/gps60), for the following reasons.
Over 24 hours runtime on 2 AA's
Takes an external aerial (if needed).
Stores lots of waypoints / routes / tracks.
Comes with a usb cable for easy transfer of data (but also can take a
serial cable and an external power supply).
Waterproof (can be submerged to 1m for 30 mins!).

Other than for Geocaching, I use it on the bike for recording all the
time/distance/speed info of a ride (as well as route taken), which can
be downloaded onto a pc as a gpx file (I use easygps freeware). Routes
can be generated using gmaps-pedometer or google earth, saved as a gpx
file and uploaded to the GPS, then you just follow the on-screen arrow
or perhaps the map screen (not a "proper" map, more of a route diagram,
but works well).

I'm very pleased with it, not least for it's excellent battery life.

(oh, and a tip for any gps user, if you have a gpx file of your cycle
ride, you can drag-and-drop it onto google earth, and it overlays the
track on the landscape)

Jeremy Parker said:

I bought a Garmin eTrex Summit to do essentially that. The Summit
hs a built in barometer for more accurate elevation measuring. I
felt that elevations might be important to me on my bicycle.

Thanks to everyone who replied on this one. I'm currently favouring
the approach of having a small GPS without an altimeter and using some
mapping software to extract the terrain profile as well and
overplotting on OS mapping. The Geko 201 seems favourable but I'm
still worried about battery life, especially using rechargeables. I
have a Garmin III+ which I can download mapping data to but I don't
have the attached antenna and have been using an external one which I
find very inconvenient. I think I may just go down the route of
building something myself with an internal antenna and a rechargeable
lithium battery. I don't need a display apart from a status light to
show the thing is working.

Chris
--
Chris Eilbeck

Chris Eilbeck said:

I quite like to be able to check my odometer against a map version of
the route I've taken after a ride. I also like to be able to check
the height profile. I've been considering either buying or building a
simple GPS-based logger to save me having to remember the route. I'm
not keen on the idea of writing on a map as I go so I was looking for
something automatic to do the job. I don't need any fancy features
like mapping or colour display and I don't think I'll really need to
use it as I go along so something small and cheap that I could just
put in the top of my pannier would be ideal. Does anyone know of
anything appropriate for this sort of use?

Chris

Hey! Here's a name I recognise 😉

I have Garmin Etrex Summit (with electronic compass & baro alt.), which
records tracklog at some arbitrary rate. Some of the top models eg
Garmin 60CSx (now with 1gig miniSD card) will store literally zillions
of datapoints at user selectable rate.

I use EasyGPS to download everything to the PC and to maintain
waypoints. The new versions of this freebie software handle tracklogs
as well as routes/waypoints.

As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, you can save this track as .GPX
file and drag/drop onto Google Earth to get a birds eye view of where
you've been. Dunno what other opensouce/freeware map software there is
that will handle these files.

The GPX file is straightforward XML, so should be able to import into
spreadsheet, or write simple script. On mine, it seems some tracklogs
have a (lat,lon,alt) triplet, and others have a (lat,lon,alt,time)
'quartet' for each data point - not sure why this is. So there's scope
there not just to check your odometer, but also min/max speed etc.

--
AndyM.

Chris Eilbeck said:

Jeremy Parker said:

I bought a Garmin eTrex Summit to do essentially that. The Summit
hs a built in barometer for more accurate elevation measuring. I
felt that elevations might be important to me on my bicycle.

Thanks to everyone who replied on this one. I'm currently favouring
the approach of having a small GPS without an altimeter and using some
mapping software to extract the terrain profile as well and
overplotting on OS mapping. The Geko 201 seems favourable but I'm
still worried about battery life, especially using rechargeables. I
have a Garmin III+ which I can download mapping data to but I don't
have the attached antenna and have been using an external one which I
find very inconvenient. I think I may just go down the route of
building something myself with an internal antenna and a rechargeable
lithium battery. I don't need a display apart from a status light to
show the thing is working.

Chris

I'd have gone for self-contained personally, and WITH baro alt. The
data can be picked straight out of the tracklog.

Be careful mixing OSGB with WGS84. Google for info about converting
between the two! Maybe recent OSGB maps have dual grids overlaid now?
My german ADAC map certainly does.

Batteries - Garmin (older models at least) think that NiMH are half
empty within 10mins use after doing a cold reset. My Etrex quite
happily got 2 days use out in the forest, whilst permanently indicating
half full batteries, and has been running for an hour or so indoors
while I play with tracklogs and waypoints.

--
AndyM.

Andy M said:

I'd have gone for self-contained personally, and WITH baro alt. The
data can be picked straight out of the tracklog.

I figured that a terrain database is gonna be more accurate again than
a baro sensor and the increase in battery life between the Geko 301
and 201 would be worth having (9hrs vs 12hrs according to the Garmin
website).

Quoted message said:

Be careful mixing OSGB with WGS84. Google for info about converting
between the two! Maybe recent OSGB maps have dual grids overlaid now?

Don't think so but that's not so much of a problem if you use the
right code to do it. I've fallen into that trap before and ended up
with results up to 50m out horizontally.

Quoted message said:

Batteries - Garmin (older models at least) think that NiMH are half
empty within 10mins use after doing a cold reset. My Etrex quite
happily got 2 days use out in the forest, whilst permanently
indicating half full batteries, and has been running for an hour or
so indoors while I play with tracklogs and waypoints.

If you can get hold of the right connector, you can power a Geko from
two D, C or AA cells. I think I may end up going this way or building
a simple switching regulator to give 3V to a Geko from a LiPo.

Chris
--
Chris Eilbeck

Andy M said:

Chris Eilbeck wrote:
**snip**

Hey! Here's a name I recognise 😉

Wotcha! I didn't think you were a cyclist. Bob Arnott might be along
in a minute too.

Chris
--
Chris Eilbeck

Andy M said:

Batteries - Garmin (older models at least) think that NiMH are half
empty within 10mins use after doing a cold reset. My Etrex quite
happily got 2 days use out in the forest, whilst permanently indicating
half full batteries, and has been running for an hour or so indoors
while I play with tracklogs and waypoints.

That'll be a consequence of the near-flat discharge curve. No doubt Garmin
calibrated for Alkaline AAs. I know this stuff and I'm a Biochemist
(Allegedly), why can't the design guru's work out that all AAs are not
created equal?

Jon

Chris Eilbeck said:

Andy M said:

Chris Eilbeck wrote:
**snip**

Hey! Here's a name I recognise 😉

Wotcha! I didn't think you were a cyclist. Bob Arnott might be along
in a minute too.

The 'net is a seriously spooky place! Bumped into Gary Peet in another
forum, and another person in that forum wondered if I knew Gary Meakin.

Yep - used to be very active, but didn't hack it in the uni roadracing
team. Easily many 1000km per year, but then gave up when I lived in
London. Been getting back into it the last yr or so, since finding it
tricky to fit into my ski clothing!

Got roadbike (under renovation - see thread elsewhere), mountainbike,
and looking at getting a sportyish recumbent.

--
AndyM.

Chris Eilbeck said:

I figured that a terrain database is gonna be more accurate again than
a baro sensor and the increase in battery life between the Geko 301
and 201 would be worth having (9hrs vs 12hrs according to the Garmin
website).

The OS altitude survey used in affordable maps is not the highest
quality, a lot of interpolation is going on. You can get better
better results from the altimeter. Both systems tend to over estimate
ascent and descent.

The 301 has two major advantages over the 201.
1. An altimeter.
2. An electronic compass.
Both these improve over straight forward GPS operation. The
electronic compass steels battery life. It can be turned off then the
battery life of the 201 and 301 become similar.

To get better battery life you must use a modern GPS with AA cells.
The Garmin Etrex Summit is a bigger 301. Good AA batteries might be
2800 mAH but the best AAA are only 900mAH a third of the capacity.

Andy M said:

The 'net is a seriously spooky place!

Certainly is. Just discovered I'm mentioned on the late Ken Kifer's
bike pages.

...d

Jon Senior said:

Andy M said:

Batteries - Garmin (older models at least) think that NiMH are half
empty within 10mins use after doing a cold reset. My Etrex quite
happily got 2 days use out in the forest, whilst permanently
indicating half full batteries, and has been running for an hour or
so indoors while I play with tracklogs and waypoints.

That'll be a consequence of the near-flat discharge curve. No doubt
Garmin calibrated for Alkaline AAs. I know this stuff and I'm a
Biochemist (Allegedly), why can't the design guru's work out that all
AAs are not created equal?

Presumably it's a question of doing the QA as well. Also, for many
applications, I think that alkalines are preferred by the manufacturer for
all the wrong reasons (e.g. Because the sales reps from the alkaline
manufacturer did a nice bundling deal with the company)
--
Ambrose

"Andy M" <[email hidden]> wrote

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Be careful mixing OSGB with WGS84. Google for info about

converting

Quoted message said:

between the two! Maybe recent OSGB maps have dual grids overlaid

now?

Quoted message said:

My german ADAC map certainly does.

[snip]

OS maps always have shown lat and long, although not with a grid all
over the map. HOWEVER, the OS lat and long is not to the WGS84
datum. If you go to the observatory at Greenwich with your gps, the
gps will tell you that the zero meridian is about 100 metres away
from that line marked on the ground.

Britain and Germany used to each have their own datums, but the
European Union has stepped in, I gather. Whether that now makes ADAC
maps and OS maps use the same kind of lat and long, I'm not sure.

Jeremy Parker

Chris Eilbeck said:

Jeremy Parker said:

I bought a Garmin eTrex Summit to do essentially that. The Summit
hs a built in barometer for more accurate elevation measuring. I
felt that elevations might be important to me on my bicycle.

Thanks to everyone who replied on this one. I'm currently favouring
the approach of having a small GPS without an altimeter and using some
mapping software to extract the terrain profile as well and
overplotting on OS mapping. The Geko 201 seems favourable but I'm
still worried about battery life, especially using rechargeables. I
have a Garmin III+ which I can download mapping data to but I don't
have the attached antenna and have been using an external one which I
find very inconvenient. I think I may just go down the route of
building something myself with an internal antenna and a rechargeable
lithium battery. I don't need a display apart from a status light to
show the thing is working.

Chris

I've got a 201 which I originally bought for walking and it's a
permant fixture on my bike now. Love it. Cost me about £80 on Ebay.
£90 on Amazon I think. Don't bother spending £15 on the bike mount - I
use a mobile phone cover (the ones they give out free when you buy a
phone which probably cost 50p) held in place with a couple of cable
ties. Battery life is about 8 hours on NIMH's. Not great, but
liveable with and you could carry a pocket full of spares if you
wanted.

Great for uploading/downloading tracks, checking how far/fast you've
gone, or just generally heading wherever you fancy, and then using it
to navigate home.

Re: 301 - I've not bothered about the altimeter and don't know what
the point is as the 201 can show altitude (p.s. don't want to know),
although the electronic compasss would be nice.