Got skimmed by car, again....

Rudyard Shackleton said:

I always try to get in to the curb as much as possible when I know cars are
behind me queueing but sometimes on narrower roads they simple have to wait
a few seconds. Why should we wreck our bikes in potholes in the gutter just
so they can cut three seconds off their journey? Is this a fair opinion
guys? I always try to ride about a foot out into the road but will get in
as much as possible if I am an obstruction. However, the highway code
informs me that I am a pefectly legitmate user of the roads. A difficult
circle to square.

Stick your left hand out.
If it is over the kerb then you are too close. I tend to ride as a
mininmum so that the yellow lines are outside teh end of my handlebars
as I look at them from a normal riding position, ie about a metre out.
Another good indicator is the nearside wheel track where you will find
the road smoother and less glass. Cars will then give you the clearance
you are due.

...d

Rudyard Shackleton said:

Is it just me or are drivers getting more aggressive just recently? I had
two white van men skim me with their wing mirrors yesterday morning on my
long ride. I also had a juggernaut keep slipping into neutral amd revving
his engione just because he had to with ten seconds to get past me.
[censored]. I was going to drop one of the [censored] when I caught him up at
the traffic lights but then I remembered what Lance says in that "no good
can come from confrontations with the drivers of metal boxes". So I
grudgingly left it alone even though the bloke knew he'd been a [censored].

I don't think it's exclusively a Motorist/Cyclist thing - more a symptom
of the self-centred, intolerant, aggressive country we are making for
ourselves. I don't know how it compares here to other countries. Perhaps
it's something to do with population density - too many people in too
little space, so we all end up hating each other.

There are plenty of other slow road-users around here (rural Norfolk) -
tractors and other farm vehicles for example. Your average
neanderthal-in-a-bmw seems to act just as aggressively to them as they
do to cyclists. Same for white-van-man too.

--
Chris

"Rudyard Shackleton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:6yZoe.5647 I was
going to drop one of the [censored] when I caught him up at

Quoted message said:

the traffic lights but then I remembered what Lance says in that "no good
can come from confrontations with the drivers of metal boxes". So I
grudgingly left it alone even though the bloke knew he'd been a [censored].

However aggrieved you are remember they have a much "bigger stick" than you
which can do you serious knackeridge if they turn psycho. I much prefer to
smile and ride away happy that I'm not eaten away by stress in a tin box. My
slim figure, fitness and toned legs are enough revenge for Mr Fat Neck in
his white van ;-)

--
Simon Mason
http://www.simonmason.karoo.net

Rudyard Shackleton said:

Is it just me or are drivers getting more aggressive just recently?
I had two white van men skim me with their wing mirrors yesterday
morning on my long ride.

[snip]

Quoted message said:

I always try to get in to the curb as much as possible when I know
cars are behind me queueing but sometimes on narrower roads they simple
have to wait a few seconds. Why should we wreck our bikes in potholes
in the gutter just so they can cut three seconds off their journey? Is
this a fair opinion guys? I always try to ride about a foot out into
the road but will get in as much as possible if I am an obstruction.

There's your problem. You are riding too close to the kerb and inviting
drivers to try to squeeze past you. If you ride further out so they
have to make a positive move to overtake you, you will find that,
paradoxically, they treat you with more respect and give you more room.

On a singletrack road where there is not room for a car to pass you
safely there is no point in riding at the extreme left edge of the
road. Stay in the middle until you get to a passing place, or at least
a place where the road is a bit wider, then positively pull over and
let them pass you. They will usually give you a toot and a friendly
wave for being considerate.

--
Dave...

"Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I don't think it's exclusively a Motorist/Cyclist thing - more a symptom
of the self-centred, intolerant, aggressive country we are making for
ourselves. I don't know how it compares here to other countries. Perhaps
it's something to do with population density - too many people in too
little space, so we all end up hating each other.

The Netherlands is one of the most densely populated countries on earth and
cyclists get nowhere near this type of abuse over there. I think it's more
of a cultural thing. We are following the American "car is king" philosophy.

The bigger and more expensive your car, the more important you are and
lesser people should get out of my way and if they don't I'll get angry.
After all, I didn't spend 10s of thousands of pounds to sit behind someone
on a push bike.

--
Simon Mason
http://www.simonmason.karoo.net

"dkahn400" <[email hidden]> wrote in message Stay in the middle until
you get to a passing place, or at least

Quoted message said:

a place where the road is a bit wider, then positively pull over and
let them pass you. They will usually give you a toot and a friendly
wave for being considerate.

Either that or flick V signs at you ;-)

--
Simon Mason
http://www.simonmason.karoo.net

I take your point but surely you can't just ride further out in the road
like you suggest? When I was taking my motorbike test the golden rule is to
ride where the passenger side wheels of a car would be. Surely your not
suggesting that on todays roads we should be that far out? It'd be suicide
on anything other than a quiet road.
I ride in North Leicestershire/Nottinghamshire too. Goodness knows what it
ust be like for you guys down in the South East.

"dkahn400" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Rudyard Shackleton said:

Is it just me or are drivers getting more aggressive just recently?
I had two white van men skim me with their wing mirrors yesterday
morning on my long ride.

[snip]

Quoted message said:

I always try to get in to the curb as much as possible when I know
cars are behind me queueing but sometimes on narrower roads they simple
have to wait a few seconds. Why should we wreck our bikes in potholes
in the gutter just so they can cut three seconds off their journey? Is
this a fair opinion guys? I always try to ride about a foot out into
the road but will get in as much as possible if I am an obstruction.

There's your problem. You are riding too close to the kerb and inviting
drivers to try to squeeze past you. If you ride further out so they
have to make a positive move to overtake you, you will find that,
paradoxically, they treat you with more respect and give you more room.

On a singletrack road where there is not room for a car to pass you
safely there is no point in riding at the extreme left edge of the
road. Stay in the middle until you get to a passing place, or at least
a place where the road is a bit wider, then positively pull over and
let them pass you. They will usually give you a toot and a friendly
wave for being considerate.

--
Dave...

Rudyard Shackleton said:

I take your point but surely you can't just ride further out in the road
like you suggest? When I was taking my motorbike test the golden rule is to
ride where the passenger side wheels of a car would be. Surely your not
suggesting that on todays roads we should be that far out? It'd be suicide
on anything other than a quiet road.

Actually it is safer. You deliberately enter the drivers conciousness
and he has to accommodate you.
Works just fine and I learned to ride in the South East, and have
ridden in many European countries. Turin was by far the most exciting
as the traffic wasn't really used to vehicular cycling..

...d

Quoted message said:

I ride in North Leicestershire/Nottinghamshire too. Goodness knows what it
ust be like for you guys down in the South East.

"dkahn400" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Rudyard Shackleton said:

Is it just me or are drivers getting more aggressive just recently?
I had two white van men skim me with their wing mirrors yesterday
morning on my long ride.

[snip]

Quoted message said:

I always try to get in to the curb as much as possible when I know
cars are behind me queueing but sometimes on narrower roads they simple
have to wait a few seconds. Why should we wreck our bikes in potholes
in the gutter just so they can cut three seconds off their journey? Is
this a fair opinion guys? I always try to ride about a foot out into
the road but will get in as much as possible if I am an obstruction.

There's your problem. You are riding too close to the kerb and inviting
drivers to try to squeeze past you. If you ride further out so they
have to make a positive move to overtake you, you will find that,
paradoxically, they treat you with more respect and give you more room.

On a singletrack road where there is not room for a car to pass you
safely there is no point in riding at the extreme left edge of the
road. Stay in the middle until you get to a passing place, or at least
a place where the road is a bit wider, then positively pull over and
let them pass you. They will usually give you a toot and a friendly
wave for being considerate.

--
Dave...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't know how it compares here to other countries.

I've just got back from 2100 km cycling in France and Spain, so I do
know: the UK drivers drive without consideration for anyone who is not
a driver unlike in other countries.

In France, cyclists are treated absolutely and 100% as "traffic". This
is a little paradoxical, as the vast majority of cyclists are leisure
cyclists rather than using bikes for transport. I say paradoxical,
because it often seems that UK drivers view their journey as important,
because they are going to work, getting the shopping, etc, and view the
cyclists as "clogging up the road" for fun rather than actually having
an equally important journey to make.

In France, every single vehicle will pull well out to pass - normally
with all wheels over the centre line, indicating to pull out and again
to pull back in. If they can't do that, they'll wait. Even articulated
tanker lorries.

French cyclists ride well over to the edge. There's no need to adopt a
primary position, or any other kind of defensive cycling. They happily
cycle at the extreme edge of the road with complete assurance that
no-one will try to squeeze through.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My missus does not like the idea of me being out on a bike

when we have a young nipper.

Well, it's been show that, statistically, the extra years of life you
gain by cycling far outweigh the very small risk of being killed
prematurely while cycling.

"Rudyard Shackleton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I take your point but surely you can't just ride further out in the road
like you suggest? When I was taking my motorbike test the golden rule is
to ride where the passenger side wheels of a car would be. Surely your
not suggesting that on todays roads we should be that far out? It'd be
suicide on anything other than a quiet road.

Experience suggests otherwise - many riders on this NG do ride this far out,
and we don't have problems as a result. This is on many different road
types, from city traffic jam to busy A road.

There is a book called 'Cyclecraft' by John Franklin. Obtain a copy (buy, or
local library), read it, and follow the advice contained within. Which
includes advice to ride about where the passenger side wheels of a car would
be.

The thing is, it isn't suicide, because car drivers don't want to bend their
car or disrupt their journey - which is what hitting you would do. You just
have make sure they know you're there and have to make a positive effort to
get past, and road position is an important part of it.

cheers,
clive

I carry a small pad and pen in my panniers. All vehicles have number
plates so it is possible to jot down the offending motorists number
plate and report the matter to the police. Ok in the end its your word
against his/her if not witnessed by anyone else. I have only reported
a motorist twice in many, many years of cycling - I am not carrying
out a vendetta. They were so blatant as to be criminal, I had stopped
on a zebra crossing to allow a very old lady to cross over - zoom -
some stupid [censored] went straight through the crossing in a van, it
was a miracle she was not killed. The other time a motorist reversed
at speed without looking and almost wiped me out, I shouted out at the
top of my voice and he sped off. In fairness to the police they chased
up both incidents.

Its just my opinion but to many motorists cyclists are the lowest of
the low and they have nothing but contempt for us. Then again they
probably don't have any respect for anybody save themselves.

Rudyard Shackleton said:

I take your point but surely you can't just ride further out in the road
like you suggest? When I was taking my motorbike test the golden rule is to
ride where the passenger side wheels of a car would be. Surely your not
suggesting that on todays roads we should be that far out? It'd be suicide
on anything other than a quiet road.

Between the oil mark in the centre of the lane and the white line on a
motorbike surely? Unless you want to be carved up by cagers.

Rudyard Shackleton said:

Is it just me or are drivers getting more aggressive just recently? I had
two white van men skim me with their wing mirrors yesterday morning on my
long ride.

Hey, you did the right thing to vent on this newsgroup.
That's what we're here for.

And cycling is getting safer, at least in London.
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-centre/press-releases/press-releases-content.asp?prID=372

And more of us are cycling too:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-centre/press-releases/press-releases-content.asp?prID=380

Simon Mason said:

"dkahn400" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Stay in the middle until you get to a passing place, or at least a
place where the road is a bit wider, then positively pull over and
let them pass you. They will usually give you a toot and a friendly
wave for being considerate.

Either that or flick V signs at you ;-)

I did say "usually". :-) Nothing is guaranteed with motorists. At
least the ones who abuse you have had to take account of you rather
than just sweeping you into the hedge.

--
Dave...

Rudyard Shackleton said:

I take your point but surely you can't just ride further out in the
road like you suggest? When I was taking my motorbike test the golden
rule is to ride where the passenger side wheels of a car would be.
Surely your not suggesting that on todays roads we should be that far
out? It'd be suicide on anything other than a quiet road.
I ride in North Leicestershire/Nottinghamshire too. Goodness knows what
it must be like for you guys down in the South East.

Well, you've been hit twice in one morning while riding in the gutter,
so that strategy clearly doesn't work. The car's left tyre track
position is what John Franklin terms the "primary position". I would
usually only ride this far out when I feel the need to control the
traffic behind me. That is, where I don't think there's enough room for
a motorist to overtake me safely. Where I'm happy to be overtaken I
would ride closer to the kerb than that, but nowhere near as close as
you've been hanging out.

--
Dave...

Response to Rudyard Shackleton:

Quoted message said:

When I was taking my motorbike test the golden rule is to
ride where the passenger side wheels of a car would be. Surely your not
suggesting that on todays roads we should be that far out? It'd be suicide
on anything other than a quiet road.

ITYM murder! In any case, that's where I ride, unless I'm in the middle
of the lane, or in line with the driver's head (my preferred position in
slow & heavy traffic) - but that's town commuting. In the country, the
passenger-side wheeltrack is the default position. It means that drivers
have to positively change their road position to overtake, which is much
safer than letting them simply get past you without swerving at all,
which is what they *will* do if you let them.

Have a good read of "Cyclecraft", by John Franklin:

http://www.lesberries.co.uk/ccraft/ccraft.htm

--
Mark, UK

"The shepherd always tries to persuade the sheep that their interests and
his own are the same."

Clive George said:

Experience suggests otherwise - many riders on this NG do ride this far out,
and we don't have problems as a result. This is on many different road
types, from city traffic jam to busy A road.

My technique, which seems to work, is to ride well out but to swing back
in slightly *as the car passes*. Basically I get them to give me 3' of
clearance which I convert into 5' by moving. Doesn't work in constant
traffic, obviously.

in message <[email hidden]>, Rudyard Shackleton

(') said:

Is it just me or are drivers getting more aggressive just recently? I
had two white van men skim me with their wing mirrors yesterday
morning on my
long ride. I also had a juggernaut keep slipping into neutral amd
revving his engione just because he had to with ten seconds to get
past me.
[censored]. I was going to drop one of the [censored] when I caught him
up at the traffic lights but then I remembered what Lance says in that
"no good
can come from confrontations with the drivers of metal boxes". So I
grudgingly left it alone even though the bloke knew he'd been a [censored].

I always try to get in to the curb as much as possible when I know
cars are behind me queueing but sometimes on narrower roads they
simple have to wait
a few seconds.

That's your problem. Get out into the primary riding position (i.e.
pretty much in the middle of where the car would be on the road if you
were driving a car, and stay there until /you/ feel it's safe for them
to pass. If you ride in the gutter, drivers will try to squeeze past
you in the same lane. If you claim the lane and make that impossible,
they're forced to wait until its safe to overtake. This is official
government safety advice, so no-one can claim you're 'in the wrong'
doing it.

Quoted message said:

Why should we wreck our bikes in potholes in the
gutter just
so they can cut three seconds off their journey? Is this a fair
opinion
guys? I always try to ride about a foot out into the road but will
get in
as much as possible if I am an obstruction.

Stay at least two metres out from the kerb.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Age equals angst multiplied by the speed of fright squared.
;; the Worlock