gore-tex trail shoes

Lanceandrew said:

as i did a 9 miler last night...it just occurred to me....can you
trail run at night? i would think that's a bit risky...no?

Depends on whether you can see where you're going or not. I love running on
the roads in almost complete darkness but if I was on a trail I'd invest in
a decent headtorch.

Quoted message said:

don't
you have to see and well where you're striking? couldn't you easily
roll and ankle or something trail running at night hitting and object
of somesort? might sound like a dumb question...

Yep. ;-)

Tim

Lanceandrew <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

as i did a 9 miler last night...it just occurred to me....can you trail

run at

Quoted message said:

night? i would think that's a bit risky...no? don't you have to see

and

Quoted message said:

well where you're striking? couldn't you easily roll and ankle or

something

Quoted message said:

trail running at night hitting and object of somesort? might sound like

a

Quoted message said:

dumb question...but i am a city roadrunner.....but i do have an SUV 🙂

so i

Quoted message said:

can get to the trail....it just never occurred to that trail running at

night

Quoted message said:

is probably a "no go". true?

Headlamp?

Quoted message said:

with snow, slush, and ice coming.....just passing along a good deal on
merrell
stormfront gore-tex trailrunning shoes. rei-outlets selling'em in most all
sizes at $62, dealcoupon.com has a 20% off coupon on top of that making them
$50. i've never seen a real gore-tex trail shoe for anything close to this
price.

http://www.rei.com/outlet/product/47869792.htm

Good deal, but where's the coupon? Or what is it for? I could only find adidas
coups.

Quoted message said:

i'd buy'em however locally i was snooping at campmor and was able to pick up
the display model of a pair of salomon xa pro 2 trailrunners for $29.

Dried out from the heat, and lights, and will self-destruct prematurely.

this link will get you there....
http://dealcoupon.com/merchants/reioutlet.com.html

the coupon code is HVHAY

"Lanceandrew" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

as i did a 9 miler last night...it just occurred to me....can you trail

run at

Quoted message said:

night? i would think that's a bit risky...no? don't you have to see

and

Quoted message said:

well where you're striking? couldn't you easily roll and ankle or

something

Quoted message said:

trail running at night hitting and object of somesort? might sound like

a

Quoted message said:

dumb question...but i am a city roadrunner.....but i do have an SUV 🙂

so i

Quoted message said:

can get to the trail....it just never occurred to that trail running at

night

Quoted message said:

is probably a "no go". true?

http://www.vhtrc.org/events/moon-run.htm

They do make halogen headlamps that work pretty well. I've only run on unlit
paved trails at night, which is not that bad at all. It probably wouldn't be
too bad on a flattish, broad trail (such as fire roads). I personally
wouldn't do it on a narrow, twisty, "technical" trail, though.

I suspect your overall speed would suffer a bit, so it's probably not the
time to set heavy duty-training/speed goals. But if you want to get out and
do a few slow miles and enjoy the scenery in a way most people don't get to,
it'd be fun.

Quoted message said:

this link will get you there....
http://dealcoupon.com/merchants/reioutlet.com.html

the coupon code is HVHAY

Too late, OOS. Thanks anyway.

Lanceandrew said:

as i did a 9 miler last night...it just occurred to me....can you
trail run at night? i would think that's a bit risky...no? don't
you have to see and well where you're striking? couldn't you easily
roll and ankle or something trail running at night hitting and object
of somesort?

I did several hours of pre-dawn trail running a week for a few years. I
used (and still do) a mini-mag type AA battery flashlight. These are much
better at revealing hazards than headlamps, in my experience, 'cause you
hold them lower and get a better relief angle.

Yes, you do go a bit slower, unless you're hell bent (as I wasn't). I did
my speed and tempo work when it was light.

Quoted message said:

might sound like a dumb question...but i am a city
roadrunner.....but i do have an SUV 🙂 so i can get to the
trail....it just never occurred to that trail running at night is
probably a "no go". true?

I ran in mountains surrounded by city, so there were no mtn lions or bears
to worry about. Only hazard I regularly encountered were skunks who would
never seem to get off the trail, just trot up ahead and look myopically back
at me.

-- Dan

Lanceandrew wrote in message

Quoted message said:

snip<
as i did a 9 miler last night...it just occurred to me....can you trail run

at

Quoted message said:

night? i would think that's a bit risky...no? don't you have to see and
well where you're striking? couldn't you easily roll and ankle or

something

Quoted message said:

trail running at night hitting and object of somesort? might sound like a
dumb question...but i am a city roadrunner.....but i do have an SUV 🙂

so i

Quoted message said:

can get to the trail....it just never occurred to that trail running at

night

Quoted message said:

is probably a "no go". true?

You can actually learn to run at night on rough trails without a light,
though the technique takes years to master. Faculties other than normal
senses help you stay smooth and lead you to naturally plant your feet in the
right places. Sounds strange, but I've experienced this many times, and
it's also spoken about in the lore of native cultures.

Generally, though it's always possible to fall or roll an ankle, you learn
to catch ankle rolls before your full weight bears down, instead if your
food plants poorly, your body drops slightly and your weight falls on the
other foot in the next stride. This takes a long time to become a purely
reflex action.

Another technique for icy conditions or steep technical downhills is to use
a type of gallop in which one foot barely passes the other foot. The right
foot can lead with the left tailing, or you can alternate leading with the
left foot.

These things becomes second nature when doing lots of technical trail
running or orienteering. IMO It's best to use a handheld light when
beginning night running. Headlamps are great for hiking, but tend to be of
less utility when running.

-Tony

"Lanceandrew" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

as i did a 9 miler last night...it just occurred to me....can you
trail run at
night? i would think that's a bit risky...no? don't you have to
see and
well where you're striking?

Lance, they are called flashlights and they come in many shapes and
sizes. Risky if your running on ice or leaves on top of ice. If you want
to run trails in the winter put screws in your shoes and get a light.

About 8 of my crazy friends did the Escarpment Trail race course in the
dark. About 7 1/2 hours. I was in Cape Cod and unavailable but I still
would not have done it. Only one dislocated finger

-DougF

Leafing through rec.running, I read Tony's message of 30 Nov 2004:

Quoted message said:

Generally, though it's always possible to fall or roll an ankle, you
learn to catch ankle rolls before your full weight bears down, instead
if your food plants poorly, your body drops slightly and your weight
falls on the other foot in the next stride.

I do this in the daylight also. I twisted my ankle several years ago while
running. Ever since, I am subconsciously prepared to catch ankle rolls. And
I thought I was the only one that did this.

Phil M.

Phil M. wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Leafing through rec.running, I read Tony's message of 30 Nov 2004:

Quoted message said:

Generally, though it's always possible to fall or roll an ankle, you
learn to catch ankle rolls before your full weight bears down, instead
if your food plants poorly, your body drops slightly and your weight
falls on the other foot in the next stride.

I do this in the daylight also. I twisted my ankle several years ago while
running. Ever since, I am subconsciously prepared to catch ankle rolls. And
I thought I was the only one that did this.

Phil M.

Yea I didn't mean to imply it's just for night. I think it's something that
one learns naturally when one runs constantly on uneven surfaces. In recent
years its been the good surfaces like roads that have almost caused me
problems, when my guard is down. It's a reflex action, but it has to be
somehow activated before running.

-Tony

Leafing through rec.running, I read Tony's message of 30 Nov 2004:

Quoted message said:

Phil M. wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Leafing through rec.running, I read Tony's message of 30 Nov 2004:

Quoted message said:

Generally, though it's always possible to fall or roll an ankle, you
learn to catch ankle rolls before your full weight bears down,
instead if your food plants poorly, your body drops slightly and
your weight falls on the other foot in the next stride.

I do this in the daylight also. I twisted my ankle several years ago
while running. Ever since, I am subconsciously prepared to catch ankle
rolls. And I thought I was the only one that did this.

Phil M.

Yea I didn't mean to imply it's just for night. I think it's something
that one learns naturally when one runs constantly on uneven surfaces.
In recent years its been the good surfaces like roads that have almost
caused me problems, when my guard is down. It's a reflex action, but
it has to be somehow activated before running.

Yes. I guess it gets activated for me whenver I'm runing on grass or
trails. I frequently will run on lawns of varying quality if I'm going
downhill, in which case this reflex is activated. I just never heard it
mentioned before in literature or rec.running.

Phil M.

Doug Freese said:

"Lanceandrew" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

as i did a 9 miler last night...it just occurred to me....can you
trail run at
night? i would think that's a bit risky...no? don't you have to
see and
well where you're striking?

Lance, they are called flashlights and they come in many shapes and
sizes. Risky if your running on ice or leaves on top of ice. If you want
to run trails in the winter put screws in your shoes and get a light.

Much easier to use snow shoes 🙂

Quoted message said:

About 8 of my crazy friends did the Escarpment Trail race course in the
dark. About 7 1/2 hours. I was in Cape Cod and unavailable but I still
would not have done it. Only one dislocated finger

The Anchorage ultra runners have epic runs every Thurs night starting at
6:30pm - 2-4 hrs - year round. The description frequently says bring ice
axe. When I get to that point, I will be very selective about what runs
of theirs I go on. The subject came up at a snowshoe running club (yea,
there's more than one of us up here 😉 ) meeting the other day, and I
was relieved that most of these people regarded them the same way I did.

Dot

--
The goal is training and adaptation, not destruction and injury.
- John Hardy
http://www.mountainrunning.coolrunning.com.au/misc/training.shtml

Phil M. said:

Yes. I guess it gets activated for me whenver I'm runing on grass or
trails. I frequently will run on lawns of varying quality if I'm going
downhill, in which case this reflex is activated. I just never heard it
mentioned before in literature or rec.running.

Look up "proprioception" on web or google the group. I've posted on it
in the past including some drills, iirc. There's actually a fair amount
of literature on it, as I read a lot when rehabbing AT, and PT had given
me a lot of proprioception drills. One thing interesting is that once an
ankle or whatever is injured, it always tends to screw up after that.
IIRC, it's not the strength but the neural response - or reflex.

And it does improve with time while trail running or running in the
dark. I've noticed some strange improvements (not speed) in my running
this winter, and I'm not sure where they're coming from - other than
just plain acquiring more experience under various conditions.

Dot

--
The goal is training and adaptation, not destruction and injury.
- John Hardy
http://www.mountainrunning.coolrunning.com.au/misc/training.shtml

Tony said:

Lanceandrew wrote in message

Quoted message said:

snip<
as i did a 9 miler last night...it just occurred to me....can you trail run

at

Quoted message said:

night? i would think that's a bit risky...no? don't you have to see and
well where you're striking? couldn't you easily roll and ankle or

something

Quoted message said:

trail running at night hitting and object of somesort? might sound like a
dumb question...but i am a city roadrunner.....but i do have an SUV 🙂

so i

Quoted message said:

can get to the trail....it just never occurred to that trail running at

night

Quoted message said:

is probably a "no go". true?

You can actually learn to run at night on rough trails without a light,
though the technique takes years to master. Faculties other than normal
senses help you stay smooth and lead you to naturally plant your feet in the
right places. Sounds strange, but I've experienced this many times, and
it's also spoken about in the lore of native cultures.

Just curious, but is this in total dark (no moon, no stars) or is there
some ambient light. I know up here we seldom get completely dark, esp if
a fresh snow cover. When I used to cave, we used to turn out lights when
deep in a cave (as in *very* dark), and we'd generally lose spatial
perception pretty quickly. Some of my proprioception drills do involve
drills with eyes closed, and it has improved over time, but even with a
little bit a light, it's much different than totally dark. For some
strange reason last night, I tried ss running with closed eyes for a few
seconds on a flat section of trail. Surprisingly, I had no problems, but
snowshoes are great stabilizers.

Quoted message said:

Headlamps are great for hiking, but tend to be of
less utility when running.

I'm from the running hands-free school of thought 😉 I definitely prefer
a headlamp, but would prefer it attached about sternum level (cb sternum
strap) or waist band. (I plan to implement this, but haven't gotten
around to it) Unless I'm shuffling or walking along, I tend to drive
uphill with my arms, esp. if on snowshoes in soft snow. Our "snow" (very
loose use of the term) so far this year has been the kind where you
either get aggressive or walk. If using a handheld light, I have to
alter my running form to accomodate it so it shines where I need it.
I've played around with both headlamps and handhelds, but headlamps keep
coming out ahead for me. But that's me, my experience level, and the way
I run. It may differ for others.

A drawback of the headlamp is your breath rising up through it, esp. if
running at same speed as tail wind. But if the light is positioned
lower, I think it eliminates that problem - at least it has for me. Oh,
and the sweat drips down the face from underneath the rubber thingy
behind the headlamp.

I think it was last year I played around with light placement using my
handheld, and I think I got the best lighting by positioning it near
sternum. At waist level, the light was too flat. But we had good snow
cover last year, which minimizes the need for light. Shucks, I turned it
off and ran my moonlight more than once.

If I were on an unfamiliar trail, or familiar trail after windstorm with
blowdown, or running faster, I would probably want more light than what
I've got, but it's the 4-led light, not it's placement.

I think most people up here tend to use headlamps, probably because you
can use them without hands - so hands are free for bike handles, ski
poles, etc. Most people tend to be multiple sport up here.

Also when it's cold, just wrapping hands around something alters blood
flow. I don't ss run with poles at -20F because my hands get cold around
the poles. My hands are fine at -20F if they're free to swing loose.

But that's just my experiences, which are probably different from
everyone elses.

Dot

--
The goal is training and adaptation, not destruction and injury.
- John Hardy
http://www.mountainrunning.coolrunning.com.au/misc/training.shtml

Dot wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Tony wrote:
snip<

Quoted message said:

You can actually learn to run at night on rough trails without a light,
though the technique takes years to master. Faculties other than normal
senses help you stay smooth and lead you to naturally plant your feet in

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

right places. Sounds strange, but I've experienced this many times, and
it's also spoken about in the lore of native cultures.

Just curious, but is this in total dark (no moon, no stars) or is there
some ambient light. I know up here we seldom get completely dark, esp if
a fresh snow cover. When I used to cave, we used to turn out lights when
deep in a cave (as in *very* dark), and we'd generally lose spatial
perception pretty quickly. Some of my proprioception drills do involve
drills with eyes closed, and it has improved over time, but even with a
little bit a light, it's much different than totally dark. For some
strange reason last night, I tried ss running with closed eyes for a few
seconds on a flat section of trail. Surprisingly, I had no problems, but
snowshoes are great stabilizers.

In my experiences, usually there's *some* light from somewhere, though not
enough to see your footing. I've done blind walking exercises to learn to
sense objects, such as trees, with success sometimes, and other times I'm
blind. In total darkness it would be foolish for most people to run. I
remember the night running technique being discussed in several of Tom Brown
Jr.'s books, stories the Apache native tradition primarily.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Headlamps are great for hiking, but tend to be of
less utility when running.

I'm from the running hands-free school of thought 😉 I definitely prefer
a headlamp, but would prefer it attached about sternum level (cb sternum
strap) or waist band. (I plan to implement this, but haven't gotten
around to it) Unless I'm shuffling or walking along, I tend to drive
uphill with my arms, esp. if on snowshoes in soft snow. Our "snow" (very
loose use of the term) so far this year has been the kind where you
either get aggressive or walk. If using a handheld light, I have to
alter my running form to accomodate it so it shines where I need it.
I've played around with both headlamps and handhelds, but headlamps keep
coming out ahead for me. But that's me, my experience level, and the way
I run. It may differ for others.

Chest level light, hmmm interesting. The only issue with that would be it's
harder to point, one key advantage of a headlamp or handheld. Actually with
some of the newer and lighter headlamps, some of my dislike of them for
running might go away.

Quoted message said:

A drawback of the headlamp is your breath rising up through it, esp. if
running at same speed as tail wind. But if the light is positioned
lower, I think it eliminates that problem - at least it has for me. Oh,
and the sweat drips down the face from underneath the rubber thingy
behind the headlamp.

Mine is probably just too heavy - its a few-years-old dual beam petzl with
battery pack in back of head.

Quoted message said:

I think it was last year I played around with light placement using my
handheld, and I think I got the best lighting by positioning it near
sternum. At waist level, the light was too flat. But we had good snow
cover last year, which minimizes the need for light. Shucks, I turned it
off and ran my moonlight more than once.

Damn I guess you get alot of night practice up there!

Quoted message said:

If I were on an unfamiliar trail, or familiar trail after windstorm with
blowdown, or running faster, I would probably want more light than what
I've got, but it's the 4-led light, not it's placement.

I think most people up here tend to use headlamps, probably because you
can use them without hands - so hands are free for bike handles, ski
poles, etc. Most people tend to be multiple sport up here.

Most of my recent night experience is with ROGAINE's which we usually walk,
so I use the dual beam petzl - the low beam for general navigation, and the
high beam halogen for spotting checkpoints or when needed.

Quoted message said:

Also when it's cold, just wrapping hands around something alters blood
flow. I don't ss run with poles at -20F because my hands get cold around
the poles. My hands are fine at -20F if they're free to swing loose.

But that's just my experiences, which are probably different from
everyone elses.

Dot

Damn Dot at -20 I'll be inside! I guess you adapt to wherever you are
though.

-Tony

"Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:VVcrd.1992$gN3.665@trndny07...

Quoted message said:

Dot wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Tony wrote:
snip<

Quoted message said:

You can actually learn to run at night on rough trails without a
light,
though the technique takes years to master. Faculties other than
normal
senses help you stay smooth and lead you to naturally plant your
feet in

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

right places. Sounds strange, but I've experienced this many times,
and
it's also spoken about in the lore of native cultures.

Ah yes native cultures where they likely start this with a child's first
step. Like poor countries that run without shoes. As for us "civilized"
folks I'm don't think I want to experience that transition phase. I'm
opting for big time millicandela. 😉

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Headlamps are great for hiking, but tend to be of
less utility when running.

I tried both and never liked the headlamp.

Quoted message said:

Chest level light, hmmm interesting. The only issue with that would
be it's
harder to point, one key advantage of a headlamp or handheld.
Actually with
some of the newer and lighter headlamps, some of my dislike of them
for
running might go away.

I don't pay much attention to lighting systems but a friend showed me a
new site that just happened to have a 7 LED handheld that ran on just 4
AA and only costs $30. I have 10 LED I bought about three years ago
that runs on 3 D's. It's heavy but with the lariat attached I don't
notice the weight. What I do note is a well lit trail and when I have to
run 30-35 miles in the dark after 65-70 miles already in the bank, I
want bright since my reflexes are on the sucky side. For me running with
minimal light is tantamount to suicide. It's also true that my runs are
not in winter and most of the natural light is blocked by the tree
canopy.

I'm was very surprised to see the ratio of LED's to batteries shrink so
much. I'm just wondering if the headlamps have seen the same weight
shrinkage. I leave the homework to someone else. I will offer
http://www.streamlights.com/4aa-propolymer-led-flashlight.html for the
7LED. I have no idea about quality nor how it compares with other
companies. For all I know they have a 15LED that runs off ultraviolet
sun and moon rays and weighs 1 oz.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think most people up here tend to use headlamps, probably because
you
can use them without hands - so hands are free for bike handles, ski
poles, etc. Most people tend to be multiple sport up here.

Multi-headed also. 🙂

-DougF

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 21:23:43 GMT, "Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com>

Quoted message said:

Lanceandrew wrote in message

Quoted message said:

snip<
as i did a 9 miler last night...
. . . .it just never occurred to that trail running at
night
is probably a "no go". true?

You can actually learn to run at night on rough trails without a light,
though the technique takes years to master. Faculties other than normal
senses help you stay smooth and lead you to naturally plant your feet in the
right places. Sounds strange, but I've experienced this many times, and
it's also spoken about in the lore of native cultures.

Generally, though it's always possible to fall or roll an ankle, you learn
to catch ankle rolls before your full weight bears down, instead if your
food plants poorly, your body drops slightly and your weight falls on the
other foot in the next stride. This takes a long time to become a purely
reflex action.
. . .

-Tony

Lore of native cultures -- including Mowgli's night running in Kipling's
"Jungle Book" . It's like a reflex that doesn't seem to need conscious
brain activity. I'm just barely starting to be able to sense any of this.
Because of past ankle injuries I may be more "tuned in" to trying to train
my legs to avoid injury (lots of running on uneven surfaces this year).
Last night it grew dark as I was running on the local high school track --
which is spotted with little mounds of "mud-clods" thrown down from the
surrounding hills by $h!thead kids. Several times I could feel my foot
coming down on the sudden unevenness and tightening slightly inverted or
everted to adjust while keeping in stride.

Lights: I was given a surefire keychain light last Christmas that has a
single 3V lithium battery; Taking off the keychain, it has a clip that I
attach to my fabric watchband so the light is pointing out between my thumb
and index finger. It provides enough light for "fire trails" type trails.

One thing about any flashlight -- unless you are moving at a slow walk, the
light will not reveal the depth of holes! All holes -- shallow or deep,
dry or puddle -- are just dark spots.

--
Daniel
[email hidden]

Tony said:

Dot wrote in message ...

Chest level light, hmmm interesting. The only issue with that would be it's
harder to point, one key advantage of a headlamp or handheld. Actually with
some of the newer and lighter headlamps, some of my dislike of them for
running might go away.

Most of the headlamps are mounted (hinged) to a backing, and the lamp
can be adjusted for angle by bending down. If you just use that unit and
attach to a belt or sternum strap, it should still be just as adjustable
for angle.

There's a lot of changes with led lights even in the last 2 yrs since I
got mine.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A drawback of the headlamp is your breath rising up through it, esp. if
running at same speed as tail wind. But if the light is positioned
lower, I think it eliminates that problem - at least it has for me. Oh,
and the sweat drips down the face from underneath the rubber thingy
behind the headlamp.

Mine is probably just too heavy - its a few-years-old dual beam petzl with
battery pack in back of head.

Petzl has a lot of new lights out, including lights combining both led
and halogen (or other bright bulb), I believe. That's a C or D-cell,
isn't it?

I use lithium AA in all devices that I can because of their performance
in cold, shelf life, lighter weight, and much longer use time compared
with alkalines. And they're cheaper per hour of use, to boot. Energizer
started selling AAA lithiums a few months ago. I haven't seen them in
Wal-Mart, but they are on the web.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think it was last year I played around with light placement using my
handheld, and I think I got the best lighting by positioning it near
sternum. At waist level, the light was too flat. But we had good snow
cover last year, which minimizes the need for light. Shucks, I turned it
off and ran my moonlight more than once.

Damn I guess you get alot of night practice up there!

Only for about 3 months (mid Nov through late Jan or so), at least for
me. We have a long twilight (about 2-3 hrs), so if it's not overcast
(like it's been the last 2 weeks), it doesn't get really dark until a
couple hours after sundown.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Most of my recent night experience is with ROGAINE's which we usually walk,
so I use the dual beam petzl - the low beam for general navigation, and the
high beam halogen for spotting checkpoints or when needed.

Right. I used my headlamp all of tonight, but I also used my handheld
about half the time to negotiate some slush puddles and irregular
footing (and reminded myself how much I hate handhelds, but it might be
better if I had a longer lanyard on it). It's like you need a high beam
and low beam or fog light to see close but also see to be able to navigate.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Also when it's cold, just wrapping hands around something alters blood
flow. I don't ss run with poles at -20F because my hands get cold around
the poles. My hands are fine at -20F if they're free to swing loose.

But that's just my experiences, which are probably different from
everyone elses.

Dot

Damn Dot at -20 I'll be inside! I guess you adapt to wherever you are
though.

Yep. Fairbanks has races year round - even at -50F (may shorten distance
sometims). A snowshoe race that I didn't run last year was close to
-30F. I attended a ss workshop the next day and it was about -30F or so
(about 30 min) - family outing type hike with some running 😉 It was a
3-day weekend, so I went out alone the next day at about -20F.

It's kinda funny since I used to read all these perceived limitations to
running in cyberspace (aka r.r), then I look around me (now that I know
some people) and see what people are running in reality. I'm not
anywhere near far enough along to do some of the running some of the
people up here do - and I'm not sure I want to, either. But it's an
interesting reality / goal check in terms of people striving to do
whatever - and they will find a way to overcome perceived limitations if
they want to.

Dot

--
The goal is training and adaptation, not destruction and injury.
- John Hardy
http://www.mountainrunning.coolrunning.com.au/misc/training.shtml