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19 June 2004
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Tcomeau
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  1. ********
    Calorie Intake in Relation to Body-Weight Changes in the
    Obese Reference: Kekwick, A., Pawan, G.L.S., "Calorie Intake
    in Relation to Body-Weight Changes in the Obese," The
    Lancet, July 28, 1956, pages 155-161.

    Summary: The purpose of this study was to evaluate whether
    caloric restriction or alterations in the proportions of
    dietary fat, protein and carbohydrate had a greater effect
    on changes in body weight. This study was comprised of three
    different series. Using six obese individuals, the first
    series had all subjects consume a different diet every 7 to
    9 days. The ratio of carbohydrate (47%), fat (33%), and
    protein (20%) was kept constant while varying total calories
    (2,000, 1,500, 1,000, 500). Researchers concluded that the
    fewer calories subjects consumed, the greater their weight
    loss. Half of the weight loss was attributed to water loss
    while the remainder was concluded to be fat tissue. Series 2
    examined 14 subjects on three 1,000-calorie diets. On each
    of the three diets, 90% of the calories came from one of the
    following: protein, fat or carbohydrate. After seven days,
    subjects consuming the very-high-protein and the very-high-
    fat diets lost 4.2 pounds and 6.3 pounds respectively. The
    very-high-carbohydrate group had a 1.2-pound weight gain. In
    Series 3, five subjects ate 2,000-calorie "mixed diets" for
    seven days. At the end of the week, total calories were
    increased to 2,600, with more calories coming from dietary
    fat and protein and less coming from carbohydrate. During
    the first week on the 2,000-calorie "mixed diet," subjects
    gained an average of 1.1 pounds. Although eating more total
    calories and more fat calories the second week on the 2,600-
    calorie "mixed diet," 4 of the 5 subjects lost weight (an
    average of 2.8 pounds).
    *******

    TC

  2. Thank goodness you are up on the latest research!

    The Lancet, July 28, 1956

    tcomeau said:

    ********
    Calorie Intake in Relation to Body-Weight Changes in the
    Obese Reference: Kekwick, A., Pawan, G.L.S., "Calorie
    Intake in Relation to Body-Weight Changes in the Obese,"
    The Lancet, July 28, 1956, pages 155-161.

    Summary: The purpose of this study was to evaluate whether
    caloric restriction or alterations in the proportions of
    dietary fat, protein and carbohydrate had a greater effect
    on changes in body weight. This study was comprised of
    three different series. Using six obese individuals, the
    first series had all subjects consume a different diet
    every 7 to 9 days. The ratio of carbohydrate (47%), fat
    (33%), and protein (20%) was kept constant while varying
    total calories (2,000, 1,500, 1,000, 500). Researchers
    concluded that the fewer calories subjects consumed, the
    greater their weight loss. Half of the weight loss was
    attributed to water loss while the remainder was concluded
    to be fat tissue. Series 2 examined 14 subjects on three
    1,000-calorie diets. On each of the three diets, 90% of
    the calories came from one of the following: protein, fat
    or carbohydrate. After seven days, subjects consuming the
    very-high-protein and the very-high-fat diets lost 4.2
    pounds and 6.3 pounds respectively. The very-high-
    carbohydrate group had a 1.2-pound weight gain. In Series
    3, five subjects ate 2,000-calorie "mixed diets" for seven
    days. At the end of the week, total calories were
    increased to 2,600, with more calories coming from dietary
    fat and protein and less coming from carbohydrate. During
    the first week on the 2,000-calorie "mixed diet," subjects
    gained an average of 1.1 pounds. Although eating more
    total calories and more fat calories the second week on
    the 2,600-calorie "mixed diet," 4 of the 5 subjects lost
    weight (an average of 2.8 pounds).
    *******

    TC

    --
    jmk in NC

  3. Quoted message said:

    Changes in the Obese," The Lancet, July 28, 1956, pages
    155-161. diet every 7 to 9 days. The ratio of carbohydrate
    (47%), fat (33%),

    1956, 7-9 days. No need to read further. Sorry...

    Mirek

  4. "Mirek Fidler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Changes in the Obese," The Lancet, July 28, 1956, pages
    155-161. diet every 7 to 9 days. The ratio of
    carbohydrate (47%), fat (33%),

    1956, 7-9 days. No need to read further. Sorry...

    Mirek

    So your assumptions are that:

    1) Good science could not possibly exist in 1956.

    2) 7 to 9 days is not enough for valid observations to be
    made.

    I have to question your assumptions and your judgement.

    TC

  5. You know that the principle of calculating volume by
    displacement is over 2000 years old and the observations
    that led to that principle still applies.

    Can you give me one valid study that shows that this
    study is wrong?

    TC

    jmk <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<2j8n0sFq00etU1@uni-
    berlin.de>...

    Quoted message said:

    Thank goodness you are up on the latest research!

    The Lancet, July 28, 1956

    tcomeau said:

    ********
    Calorie Intake in Relation to Body-Weight Changes in the
    Obese Reference: Kekwick, A., Pawan, G.L.S., "Calorie
    Intake in Relation to Body-Weight Changes in the Obese,"
    The Lancet, July 28, 1956, pages 155-161.

    Summary: The purpose of this study was to evaluate
    whether caloric restriction or alterations in the
    proportions of dietary fat, protein and carbohydrate had
    a greater effect on changes in body weight. This study
    was comprised of three different series. Using six obese
    individuals, the first series had all subjects consume a
    different diet every 7 to 9 days. The ratio of
    carbohydrate (47%), fat (33%), and protein (20%) was
    kept constant while varying total calories (2,000,
    1,500, 1,000, 500). Researchers concluded that the fewer
    calories subjects consumed, the greater their weight
    loss. Half of the weight loss was attributed to water
    loss while the remainder was concluded to be fat tissue.
    Series 2 examined 14 subjects on three 1,000-calorie
    diets. On each of the three diets, 90% of the calories
    came from one of the following: protein, fat or
    carbohydrate. After seven days, subjects consuming the
    very-high-protein and the very-high-fat diets lost 4.2
    pounds and 6.3 pounds respectively. The very-high-
    carbohydrate group had a 1.2-pound weight gain. In
    Series 3, five subjects ate 2,000-calorie "mixed diets"
    for seven days. At the end of the week, total calories
    were increased to 2,600, with more calories coming from
    dietary fat and protein and less coming from
    carbohydrate. During the first week on the 2,000-calorie
    "mixed diet," subjects gained an average of 1.1 pounds.
    Although eating more total calories and more fat
    calories the second week on the 2,600-calorie "mixed
    diet," 4 of the 5 subjects lost weight (an average of
    2.8 pounds).
    *******

    TC

  6. Quoted message said:

    1) Good science could not possibly exist in 1956.

    A lot of things was not known in 1956, water weight problem
    was one of them.

    Quoted message said:

    2) 7 to 9 days is not enough for valid observations to be
    made.

    7-9 days of ketosis brings huge water loss due to glycogen
    depletion. That is fact.

    Quoted message said:

    I have to question your assumptions and your judgement.

    Well, in sense that science was not that bad. They tried fat
    and they measured weight loss - that is OK.

    Only problem is that the weight loss would not continue for
    more than those 9 days (14 days max). Every LC dieter can
    tell you. Plus, after resuming carbs intake, all that weight
    is back in less than 5 days.

    Mirek

  7. tcomeau said:

    "Mirek Fidler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<2j8v3dFu3t6tU1@uni-
    berlin.de>...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Changes in the Obese," The Lancet, July 28, 1956, pages
    155-161. diet every 7 to 9 days. The ratio of
    carbohydrate (47%), fat (33%),

    1956, 7-9 days. No need to read further. Sorry...

    Mirek

    So your assumptions are that:

    1) Good science could not possibly exist in 1956.

    2) 7 to 9 days is not enough for valid observations to be
    made.

    I have to question your assumptions and your judgement.

    TC

    No, my assumption was that "Using six obese individuals" was
    not enough for the study to be taken seriously -- given that
    more that 40 years have passed for the follow-up! To be
    honest, I stopped reading there...
    --
    jmk in NC

  8. This is from a book called "Ultimate Diet Secrets" by Dr.
    Gregory Ellis. He details a study by T. R. E. Pilkington
    that discredits the Kekwick & Pawan studies.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Atkins' Heroes: Drs. Kekwick and Pawan

    As we saw in another chapter in this book, Atkins had been
    blasted by the scientific community for his claims that the
    calorie theory was a myth and for his notions about the so-
    called "metabolic advantage" of the low carbohydrate diet.
    Atkins relied primarily for the development of his theory
    about metabolic advantage on the research published in the
    mid-1950's by two British researchers, Kekwick and Pawan.
    The basis of Atkins' 1972 book, it seems, was their
    research. He continued to base his 1992 and 1999
    publications on this research, now some 45-years old.

    Atkins tells us in painstaking detail the specifics of the
    Kekwick and Pawan research. He used their research as the
    basis of developing his beliefs about weight loss. Kekwick
    and Pawan supported the carbohydrate-restricted diet but
    also hedged their statements because they weren't completely
    convinced about the validity of their own research findings.

    I'll quote, here, some statements of Kekwick and Pawan that
    weren't publicized by Atkins. First, "Many different types
    of diets have been successfully used to reduce weight in
    those considered obese. The principle on which most of them
    are constructed is to effect a reduction of calorie intake
    below the theoretical calorie needs of the body. Experience
    with these patients has suggested, however, that this
    conception may be too rigid. Many of them state that a very
    slight departure from the strict diet that can hardly affect
    calorie intake, results in them failing to lose weight for a
    time. Though it is realized that evidence from such patients
    is notoriously inaccurate owing to their approach to this
    particular condition, it is a too constant belief among them
    to be entirely discarded."

    Of course, my response to this statement is that, in fact,
    the belief posited by the overweight should be entirely
    discarded, not heeded at all. We know that mis-reporting of
    food intake increases with rising levels of obesity.
    Therefore, this patient base is, in fact, the most notorious
    in mis-reporting food intake, wholly unreliable.

    Second, Kekwick and Pawan write: "In such a study the
    difficulties are formidable. The first and main hazard was
    that many of these patients had inadequate personalities. At
    worst they would cheat and lie, obtaining food from
    visitors, from trolleys touring the wards, and from
    neighboring patients. (Some required almost complete
    isolation.) At best they cooperated fully but a few found
    the diet so trying that they could not eat the whole of
    their meals. When this happened the rejected part was
    weighed, and the equivalent calories and foodstuffs were
    added to a meal later in the day. The results we report are
    selected (emphasis mine), a considerable number of known
    failures in discipline being discarded."

    So, this is the type of scientific study that is the basis
    for Atkins' rejection of the Laws of Thermodynamics and the
    Energy Balance Equation.

    Kekwick and Pawan also reported considerable difficulty
    from the retention and loss of water associated with the
    menstrual cycle in their women subjects. Changes in the
    water content of the body, particularly during the first
    10 days of any dietary changes, mask considerably an
    accurate determination of body fat loss (not bodyweight
    loss because water is a considerable portion of the
    bodyweight that is lost in the early days of dieting). We
    must always remember that bodyweight loss and body fat
    loss are not one and the same.

    It must be realized that both Kekwick's and Pawan's interest
    in a carbohydrate-restricted diet arose from the writings of
    A. W. Pennington, the Wilmington, Delaware, Dupont Company
    medical doctor. Pennington rejected the calorie theory for
    reasons unknown to us, stating that the usual treatment for
    obesity, calorie restriction, has no scientific basis.
    Pennington, (a medical doctor and not a scientist [medical
    doctors are not scientists]) obviously, must have failed to
    perform much research because, as I've said, the application
    of the Laws of Thermodynamics to human nutrition had already
    been established by the late 1800's.

    Pennington was the first to present the idea that obesity
    was a defect in the body's ability to burn carbohydrates. To
    Pennington, this notion of a defect in carbohydrate
    metabolism overrode the calorie theory and the Energy
    Balance Equation, if he was aware of them. Pennington was
    the first to propose the idea of eating an unrestricted
    amount of protein and fat.

    An interesting aside, the understanding of the basic
    biochemistry to confirm Pennington's theory was not yet
    available to him, although it was beginning to appear in
    publications. We know, today, that, in fact, the body does
    convert carbohydrates into fat thereby stopping them from
    being burned, as we saw when we learned about energy-
    partitioning. This, of course, is not a defect as
    Pennington, and later Atkins, claimed, but is a function of
    the body's basic biochemistry (for all bodies), its normal
    regulation of food fuels. So, Pennington was not far off in
    tinkering with the idea that something related to
    carbohydrates might underlie weight control problems. His
    problem, of course, was that he allowed the idea of a defect
    in carbohydrate metabolism to take precedence in his theory
    of obesity over the well-established calorie theory, the
    Laws of Thermodynamics.

    Atkins Lashes Back

    The publications of Kekwick and Pawan unleashed a scientific
    counterattack against their theory that one could lose more
    weight faster on a carbohydrate-restricted diet that was
    higher in calories than a noncarbohydrate-restricted diet.
    The problem, then and now, has always been the tendency, by
    all persons, both lay and scientific, to equate bodyweight
    loss as a measure of fat loss, as if every pound of
    bodyweight loss was accounted for by the loss of fat, a
    critical mistake in analyzing the effectiveness of any
    bodyweight control program.

    Atkins based his 1972 book on the research of Kekwick and
    Pawan and took it upon himself to defend them against all
    criticism. He launched his first attack against T. R. E.
    Pilkington and colleagues. Atkins' primary criticism of the
    "Pilkingtonians," as he calls them, was that they discarded
    the first 12 days of weight change that occurred in the
    subjects who followed the low carbohydrate diet, a 12-day
    period in which there were larger and more rapid losses of
    bodyweight in subjects following a low-carbohydrate diet.
    There was a sound reason, unaccepted by Atkins, why the
    "Pilkingtonians" did not report the first 12-days' weight
    loss. The facts are that the study by Pilkington spanned
    several months, in comparison with the short studies of
    several days, performed by Kekwick and Pawan. The shortness
    of the Kekwick and Pawan studies was, indeed, the main
    argument against the validity of their conclusions.
    Pilkington added an interesting twist to his design study in
    that he alternated subjects between low- and high-
    carbohydrate diets. The low carbohydrate subjects always
    lost more bodyweight during the first ten days of their diet
    than the subjects on the high-carbohydrate diet. But, after
    the first ten days on either diet, the study's subjects lost
    weight equally; neither diet was more effective than the
    other as to bodyweight loss. However, when subjects switched
    diets, from a low- to a high carbohydrate diet, the group
    that had been consuming the low-carbohydrate, 1,000 calorie
    diet immediately gained weight when switching to the high
    carbohydrate, 1,000 calorie diet. Conversely, when the high-
    carbohydrate, 1,000 calorie diet group switched to the low-
    carbohydrate, 1,000 calorie diet, they immediately lost
    weight. These "swings" in bodyweight lasted up to 10 days,
    amounting to almost a six pound difference between groups
    with the advantage of increased bodyweight loss going to the
    low-carbohydrate groups. The "swings" were the reason that
    Pilkington rejected the initial 12-days of bodyweight
    changes during his several months' study. Pilkington
    observed that the "swings" could be largely explained by
    changes in water balance induced by the low-carbohydrate
    diet. Atkins' heroes, Kekwick and Pawan, observed the same
    response in their study. They, however, attributed the
    swings in bodyweight to a characteristic of diet
    composition: the notion that, somehow, the low-carbohydrate
    diet forced the body "to give up" more of its fat content.
    They rejected the idea that the more rapid and larger loss
    of bodyweight from eating a low-carbohydrate diet was caused
    by water losses.

    Interestingly, Kekwick and Pawan measured the patients'
    Resting Metabolic Rate and found no differences in patients
    who consumed diets of different compositions. They argued,
    however, that the test (of Resting Metabolic Rate) hadn't
    been sensitive enough to pick up possible energy changes. An
    interesting point to this story is that Kekwick and Pawan,
    when reflecting upon their writings, were not entirely
    willing to reject the calorie theory. Atkins never tells us
    this. Further, metabolic rate tests were, and are, easily
    able to pick up the differences, if they existed, that would
    have explained the increased weight loss had it been truly
    associated with increases in metabolism or calorie burning
    rather than what they actually were which was a larger and
    more rapid loss in body water weight.

    Pilkington, as I've stated, concluded that the swings in
    bodyweight were the result of variations in water content.
    Atkins, of course, denies this conclusion. Kekwick and
    Pawan admitted that the method of measuring body water that
    they used contained errors that made the accurate
    determination of changes in body water impossible to
    measure. So, of course, making what was without doubt a
    sound scientific decision, Pilkington didn't use the
    changes in bodyweight that occurred during the first 12
    days after each diet switchover so as to avoid biasing the
    results. His groups' observations were so repeatedly
    consistent that they realized that the initial rapid
    changes in bodyweight during the carbohydrate-restricted
    diet resulted from water changes. This conclusion was
    unavoidable. Atkins, I believe, doesn't want to acknowledge
    any of this because he wants to tell you that you can eat
    all that you want. Why wouldn't someone jump onto the "eat-all-you-
    want" bandwagon? Hell, I did!

    Once Pilkington removed the stumbling block, that of an
    initial rapid bodyweight change during diet switchover,
    bodyweight losses, thereafter, were observed to be equal
    between the two 1,000 calorie diets of different
    composition. Therefore, there was no advantage to the low-
    carbohydrate diet in respect to bodyweight losses,
    definitely a deathblow to Atkins' theory.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    [email hidden] (tcomeau) wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    You know that the principle of calculating volume by
    displacement is over 2000 years old and the observations
    that led to that principle still applies.

    Can you give me one valid study that shows that this study
    is wrong?

    TC

    jmk <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<2j8n0sFq00etU1@uni-
    berlin.de>...

    Quoted message said:

    Thank goodness you are up on the latest research!

    The Lancet, July 28, 1956

    tcomeau said:

    ********
    Calorie Intake in Relation to Body-Weight Changes in
    the Obese Reference: Kekwick, A., Pawan, G.L.S.,
    "Calorie Intake in Relation to Body-Weight Changes in
    the Obese," The Lancet, July 28, 1956, pages 155-161.

    Summary: The purpose of this study was to evaluate
    whether caloric restriction or alterations in the
    proportions of dietary fat, protein and carbohydrate
    had a greater effect on changes in body weight. This
    study was comprised of three different series. Using
    six obese individuals, the first series had all
    subjects consume a different diet every 7 to 9 days.
    The ratio of carbohydrate (47%), fat (33%), and
    protein (20%) was kept constant while varying total
    calories (2,000, 1,500, 1,000, 500). Researchers
    concluded that the fewer calories subjects consumed,
    the greater their weight loss. Half of the weight loss
    was attributed to water loss while the remainder was
    concluded to be fat tissue. Series 2 examined 14
    subjects on three 1,000-calorie diets. On each of the
    three diets, 90% of the calories came from one of the
    following: protein, fat or carbohydrate. After seven
    days, subjects consuming the very-high-protein and the
    very-high-fat diets lost 4.2 pounds and 6.3 pounds
    respectively. The very-high-carbohydrate group had a
    1.2-pound weight gain. In Series 3, five subjects ate
    2,000-calorie "mixed diets" for seven days. At the end
    of the week, total calories were increased to 2,600,
    with more calories coming from dietary fat and protein
    and less coming from carbohydrate. During the first
    week on the 2,000-calorie "mixed diet," subjects
    gained an average of 1.1 pounds. Although eating more
    total calories and more fat calories the second week
    on the 2,600-calorie "mixed diet," 4 of the 5 subjects
    lost weight (an average of 2.8 pounds).
    *******

    TC

  9. Holy smokes... someone who actually responds to my post
    with real documentation. The others in this group can
    learn from you.

    You made my day.

    TC

    [email hidden] (September) wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    This is from a book called "Ultimate Diet Secrets" by Dr.
    Gregory Ellis. He details a study by T. R. E. Pilkington
    that discredits the Kekwick & Pawan studies.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Atkins' Heroes: Drs. Kekwick and Pawan

    As we saw in another chapter in this book, Atkins had been
    blasted by the scientific community for his claims that
    the calorie theory was a myth and for his notions about
    the so-called "metabolic advantage" of the low
    carbohydrate diet. Atkins relied primarily for the
    development of his theory about metabolic advantage on the
    research published in the mid-1950's by two British
    researchers, Kekwick and Pawan. The basis of Atkins' 1972
    book, it seems, was their research. He continued to base
    his 1992 and 1999 publications on this research, now some
    45-years old.

    Atkins tells us in painstaking detail the specifics of the
    Kekwick and Pawan research. He used their research as the
    basis of developing his beliefs about weight loss. Kekwick
    and Pawan supported the carbohydrate-restricted diet but
    also hedged their statements because they weren't
    completely convinced about the validity of their own
    research findings.

    I'll quote, here, some statements of Kekwick and Pawan
    that weren't publicized by Atkins. First, "Many different
    types of diets have been successfully used to reduce
    weight in those considered obese. The principle on which
    most of them are constructed is to effect a reduction of
    calorie intake below the theoretical calorie needs of the
    body. Experience with these patients has suggested,
    however, that this conception may be too rigid. Many of
    them state that a very slight departure from the strict
    diet that can hardly affect calorie intake, results in
    them failing to lose weight for a time. Though it is
    realized that evidence from such patients is notoriously
    inaccurate owing to their approach to this particular
    condition, it is a too constant belief among them to be
    entirely discarded."

    Of course, my response to this statement is that, in fact,
    the belief posited by the overweight should be entirely
    discarded, not heeded at all. We know that mis-reporting
    of food intake increases with rising levels of obesity.
    Therefore, this patient base is, in fact, the most
    notorious in mis-reporting food intake, wholly unreliable.

    Second, Kekwick and Pawan write: "In such a study the
    difficulties are formidable. The first and main hazard was
    that many of these patients had inadequate personalities.
    At worst they would cheat and lie, obtaining food from
    visitors, from trolleys touring the wards, and from
    neighboring patients. (Some required almost complete
    isolation.) At best they cooperated fully but a few found
    the diet so trying that they could not eat the whole of
    their meals. When this happened the rejected part was
    weighed, and the equivalent calories and foodstuffs were
    added to a meal later in the day. The results we report
    are selected (emphasis mine), a considerable number of
    known failures in discipline being discarded."

    So, this is the type of scientific study that is the basis
    for Atkins' rejection of the Laws of Thermodynamics and
    the Energy Balance Equation.

    Kekwick and Pawan also reported considerable difficulty
    from the retention and loss of water associated with the
    menstrual cycle in their women subjects. Changes in the
    water content of the body, particularly during the first
    10 days of any dietary changes, mask considerably an
    accurate determination of body fat loss (not bodyweight
    loss because water is a considerable portion of the
    bodyweight that is lost in the early days of dieting). We
    must always remember that bodyweight loss and body fat
    loss are not one and the same.

    It must be realized that both Kekwick's and Pawan's
    interest in a carbohydrate-restricted diet arose from the
    writings of A. W. Pennington, the Wilmington, Delaware,
    Dupont Company medical doctor. Pennington rejected the
    calorie theory for reasons unknown to us, stating that
    the usual treatment for obesity, calorie restriction, has
    no scientific basis. Pennington, (a medical doctor and
    not a scientist [medical doctors are not scientists])
    obviously, must have failed to perform much research
    because, as I've said, the application of the Laws of
    Thermodynamics to human nutrition had already been
    established by the late 1800's.

    Pennington was the first to present the idea that obesity
    was a defect in the body's ability to burn carbohydrates.
    To Pennington, this notion of a defect in carbohydrate
    metabolism overrode the calorie theory and the Energy
    Balance Equation, if he was aware of them. Pennington was
    the first to propose the idea of eating an unrestricted
    amount of protein and fat.

    An interesting aside, the understanding of the basic
    biochemistry to confirm Pennington's theory was not yet
    available to him, although it was beginning to appear in
    publications. We know, today, that, in fact, the body does
    convert carbohydrates into fat thereby stopping them from
    being burned, as we saw when we learned about energy-
    partitioning. This, of course, is not a defect as
    Pennington, and later Atkins, claimed, but is a function
    of the body's basic biochemistry (for all bodies), its
    normal regulation of food fuels. So, Pennington was not
    far off in tinkering with the idea that something related
    to carbohydrates might underlie weight control problems.
    His problem, of course, was that he allowed the idea of a
    defect in carbohydrate metabolism to take precedence in
    his theory of obesity over the well-established calorie
    theory, the Laws of Thermodynamics.

    Atkins Lashes Back

    The publications of Kekwick and Pawan unleashed a
    scientific counterattack against their theory that one
    could lose more weight faster on a carbohydrate-restricted
    diet that was higher in calories than a noncarbohydrate-
    restricted diet. The problem, then and now, has always
    been the tendency, by all persons, both lay and
    scientific, to equate bodyweight loss as a measure of fat
    loss, as if every pound of bodyweight loss was accounted
    for by the loss of fat, a critical mistake in analyzing
    the effectiveness of any bodyweight control program.

    Atkins based his 1972 book on the research of Kekwick and
    Pawan and took it upon himself to defend them against all
    criticism. He launched his first attack against T. R. E.
    Pilkington and colleagues. Atkins' primary criticism of
    the "Pilkingtonians," as he calls them, was that they
    discarded the first 12 days of weight change that occurred
    in the subjects who followed the low carbohydrate diet, a
    12-day period in which there were larger and more rapid
    losses of bodyweight in subjects following a low-
    carbohydrate diet. There was a sound reason, unaccepted by
    Atkins, why the "Pilkingtonians" did not report the first
    12-days' weight loss. The facts are that the study by
    Pilkington spanned several months, in comparison with the
    short studies of several days, performed by Kekwick and
    Pawan. The shortness of the Kekwick and Pawan studies was,
    indeed, the main argument against the validity of their
    conclusions. Pilkington added an interesting twist to his
    design study in that he alternated subjects between low-
    and high-carbohydrate diets. The low carbohydrate subjects
    always lost more bodyweight during the first ten days of
    their diet than the subjects on the high-carbohydrate
    diet. But, after the first ten days on either diet, the
    study's subjects lost weight equally; neither diet was
    more effective than the other as to bodyweight loss.
    However, when subjects switched diets, from a low- to a
    high carbohydrate diet, the group that had been consuming
    the low-carbohydrate, 1,000 calorie diet immediately
    gained weight when switching to the high carbohydrate,
    1,000 calorie diet. Conversely, when the high-
    carbohydrate, 1,000 calorie diet group switched to the low-
    carbohydrate, 1,000 calorie diet, they immediately lost
    weight. These "swings" in bodyweight lasted up to 10 days,
    amounting to almost a six pound difference between groups
    with the advantage of increased bodyweight loss going to
    the low-carbohydrate groups. The "swings" were the reason
    that Pilkington rejected the initial 12-days of bodyweight
    changes during his several months' study. Pilkington
    observed that the "swings" could be largely explained by
    changes in water balance induced by the low-carbohydrate
    diet. Atkins' heroes, Kekwick and Pawan, observed the same
    response in their study. They, however, attributed the
    swings in bodyweight to a characteristic of diet
    composition: the notion that, somehow, the low-
    carbohydrate diet forced the body "to give up" more of its
    fat content. They rejected the idea that the more rapid
    and larger loss of bodyweight from eating a low-
    carbohydrate diet was caused by water losses.

    Interestingly, Kekwick and Pawan measured the patients'
    Resting Metabolic Rate and found no differences in
    patients who consumed diets of different compositions.
    They argued, however, that the test (of Resting Metabolic
    Rate) hadn't been sensitive enough to pick up possible
    energy changes. An interesting point to this story is that
    Kekwick and Pawan, when reflecting upon their writings,
    were not entirely willing to reject the calorie theory.
    Atkins never tells us this. Further, metabolic rate tests
    were, and are, easily able to pick up the differences, if
    they existed, that would have explained the increased
    weight loss had it been truly associated with increases in
    metabolism or calorie burning rather than what they
    actually were which was a larger and more rapid loss in
    body water weight.

    Pilkington, as I've stated, concluded that the swings in
    bodyweight were the result of variations in water content.
    Atkins, of course, denies this conclusion. Kekwick and
    Pawan admitted that the method of measuring body water
    that they used contained errors that made the accurate
    determination of changes in body water impossible to
    measure. So, of course, making what was without doubt a
    sound scientific decision, Pilkington didn't use the
    changes in bodyweight that occurred during the first 12
    days after each diet switchover so as to avoid biasing the
    results. His groups' observations were so repeatedly
    consistent that they realized that the initial rapid
    changes in bodyweight during the carbohydrate-restricted
    diet resulted from water changes. This conclusion was
    unavoidable. Atkins, I believe, doesn't want to
    acknowledge any of this because he wants to tell you that
    you can eat all that you want. Why wouldn't someone jump
    onto the "eat-all-you-want" bandwagon? Hell, I did!

    Once Pilkington removed the stumbling block, that of an
    initial rapid bodyweight change during diet switchover,
    bodyweight losses, thereafter, were observed to be equal
    between the two 1,000 calorie diets of different
    composition. Therefore, there was no advantage to the low-
    carbohydrate diet in respect to bodyweight losses,
    definitely a deathblow to Atkins' theory.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    [email hidden] (tcomeau) wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    You know that the principle of calculating volume by
    displacement is over 2000 years old and the observations
    that led to that principle still applies.

    Can you give me one valid study that shows that this
    study is wrong?

    TC

    jmk <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<2j8n0sFq00etU1@uni-
    berlin.de>...

    Quoted message said:

    Thank goodness you are up on the latest research!

    The Lancet, July 28, 1956

    On 6/15/2004 12:29 PM, tcomeau wrote:
    > ********
    > Calorie Intake in Relation to Body-Weight Changes in
    > the Obese Reference: Kekwick, A., Pawan, G.L.S.,
    > "Calorie Intake in Relation to Body-Weight Changes
    > in the Obese," The Lancet, July 28, 1956, pages 155-
    > 161.
    >
    > Summary: The purpose of this study was to evaluate
    > whether caloric restriction or alterations in the
    > proportions of dietary fat, protein and carbohydrate
    > had a greater effect on changes in body weight. This
    > study was comprised of three different series. Using
    > six obese individuals, the first series had all
    > subjects consume a different diet every 7 to 9 days.
    > The ratio of carbohydrate (47%), fat (33%), and
    > protein (20%) was kept constant while varying total
    > calories (2,000, 1,500, 1,000, 500). Researchers
    > concluded that the fewer calories subjects consumed,
    > the greater their weight loss. Half of the weight
    > loss was attributed to water loss while the
    > remainder was concluded to be fat tissue. Series 2
    > examined 14 subjects on three 1,000-calorie diets.
    > On each of the three diets, 90% of the calories came
    > from one of the following: protein, fat or
    > carbohydrate. After seven days, subjects consuming
    > the very-high-protein and the very-high-fat diets
    > lost 4.2 pounds and 6.3 pounds respectively. The very-high-
    > carbohydrate group had a 1.2-pound weight gain. In
    > Series 3, five subjects ate 2,000-calorie "mixed
    > diets" for seven days. At the end of the week, total
    > calories were increased to 2,600, with more calories
    > coming from dietary fat and protein and less coming
    > from carbohydrate. During the first week on the 2,000-
    > calorie "mixed diet," subjects gained an average of
    > 1.1 pounds. Although eating more total calories and
    > more fat calories the second week on the 2,600-
    > calorie "mixed diet," 4 of the 5 subjects lost
    > weight (an average of 2.8 pounds).
    > *******
    >
    > TC

  10. [email hidden] (September) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    This is from a book called "Ultimate Diet Secrets" by Dr.
    Gregory Ellis. He details a study by T. R. E. Pilkington
    that discredits the Kekwick & Pawan studies.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Atkins' Heroes: Drs. Kekwick and Pawan

    As we saw in another chapter in this book, Atkins had been
    blasted by the scientific community for his claims that
    the calorie theory was a myth and for his notions about
    the so-called "metabolic advantage" of the low
    carbohydrate diet. Atkins relied primarily for the
    development of his theory about metabolic advantage on the
    research published in the mid-1950's by two British
    researchers, Kekwick and Pawan. The basis of Atkins' 1972
    book, it seems, was their research. He continued to base
    his 1992 and 1999 publications on this research, now some
    45-years old.

    Atkins tells us in painstaking detail the specifics of the
    Kekwick and Pawan research. He used their research as the
    basis of developing his beliefs about weight loss. Kekwick
    and Pawan supported the carbohydrate-restricted diet but
    also hedged their statements because they weren't
    completely convinced about the validity of their own
    research findings.

    I'll quote, here, some statements of Kekwick and Pawan
    that weren't publicized by Atkins. First, "Many different
    types of diets have been successfully used to reduce
    weight in those considered obese. The principle on which
    most of them are constructed is to effect a reduction of
    calorie intake below the theoretical calorie needs of the
    body. Experience with these patients has suggested,
    however, that this conception may be too rigid. Many of
    them state that a very slight departure from the strict
    diet that can hardly affect calorie intake, results in
    them failing to lose weight for a time. Though it is
    realized that evidence from such patients is notoriously
    inaccurate owing to their approach to this particular
    condition, it is a too constant belief among them to be
    entirely discarded."

    Of course, my response to this statement is that, in fact,
    the belief posited by the overweight should be entirely
    discarded, not heeded at all. We know that mis-reporting
    of food intake increases with rising levels of obesity.
    Therefore, this patient base is, in fact, the most
    notorious in mis-reporting food intake, wholly unreliable.

    Kinda extreme, don't you think? Entirely discarded? So the
    people who want to lose weight are inherent liars? Sheesh.

    Quoted message said:

    Second, Kekwick and Pawan write: "In such a study the
    difficulties are formidable. The first and main hazard was
    that many of these patients had inadequate personalities.
    At worst they would cheat and lie, obtaining food from
    visitors, from trolleys touring the wards, and from
    neighboring patients. (Some required almost complete
    isolation.) At best they cooperated fully but a few found
    the diet so trying that they could not eat the whole of
    their meals. When this happened the rejected part was
    weighed, and the equivalent calories and foodstuffs were
    added to a meal later in the day. The results we report
    are selected (emphasis mine), a considerable number of
    known failures in discipline being discarded."

    I can see some problems with enforcing a diet that is 90%
    carbs or 90% fat. That would be a problem.

    Quoted message said:

    So, this is the type of scientific study that is the basis
    for Atkins' rejection of the Laws of Thermodynamics and
    the Energy Balance Equation.

    Here we go again. No one has suggested that this rejects the
    laws of thermo, only its *direct* application to fat storage
    or usage in humans. There is a difference, you know.

    Quoted message said:

    Kekwick and Pawan also reported considerable difficulty
    from the retention and loss of water associated with the
    menstrual cycle in their women subjects. Changes in the
    water content of the body, particularly during the first
    10 days of any dietary changes, mask considerably an
    accurate determination of body fat loss (not bodyweight
    loss because water is a considerable portion of the
    bodyweight that is lost in the early days of dieting). We
    must always remember that bodyweight loss and body fat
    loss are not one and the same.

    I believe that the studies took water weight into account
    and carefully quantified it.

    Quoted message said:

    It must be realized that both Kekwick's and Pawan's
    interest in a carbohydrate-restricted diet arose from the
    writings of A. W. Pennington, the Wilmington, Delaware,
    Dupont Company medical doctor. Pennington rejected the
    calorie theory for reasons unknown to us, stating that
    the usual treatment for obesity, calorie restriction, has
    no scientific basis. Pennington, (a medical doctor and
    not a scientist [medical doctors are not scientists])
    obviously, must have failed to perform much research
    because, as I've said, the application of the Laws of
    Thermodynamics to human nutrition had already been
    established by the late 1800's.

    It really doesn't matter what got them interested in carb-
    restricted diets, what matters is the usefulness and
    scientific validity of the study. Pennington may have
    questioned the calorie theory, but so what? And again, we
    are not talking about the general application of the laws of
    thermo to human nutrition, we are talking specifically about
    applying the laws of thermo to accurately predict weight/fat
    gain and loss in humans. There is a difference.

    Quoted message said:

    Pennington was the first to present the idea that obesity
    was a defect in the body's ability to burn carbohydrates.
    To Pennington, this notion of a defect in carbohydrate
    metabolism overrode the calorie theory and the Energy
    Balance Equation, if he was aware of them. Pennington was
    the first to propose the idea of eating an unrestricted
    amount of protein and fat.

    Pennington may have been right all along and no, that does
    not contravene the laws of thermo.

    Quoted message said:

    An interesting aside, the understanding of the basic
    biochemistry to confirm Pennington's theory was not yet
    available to him, although it was beginning to appear in
    publications. We know, today, that, in fact, the body does
    convert carbohydrates into fat thereby stopping them from
    being burned, as we saw when we learned about energy-
    partitioning. This, of course, is not a defect as
    Pennington, and later Atkins, claimed, but is a function
    of the body's basic biochemistry (for all bodies), its
    normal regulation of food fuels. So, Pennington was not
    far off in tinkering with the idea that something related
    to carbohydrates might underlie weight control problems.
    His problem, of course, was that he allowed the idea of a
    defect in carbohydrate metabolism to take precedence in
    his theory of obesity over the well-established calorie
    theory, the Laws of Thermodynamics.

    The calorie theory may be well-established, but there is
    little, if any actual data to support it. I've challenged
    this group to provide the seminal study or the definitive
    study that proves, for once and for all, the calorie theory,
    and I've yet to see it. One would think that such
    fundamental and ground breaking science would be readily
    accessible to all students of nutrition.

    TC

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