Good Morning

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What's the deal on this?

Dr. Colgan in The New Power Program writes that the Good Morning is
"one of the dill-brain stiff-legged exercises that most damages the
lower back." He advises people never to do stiff-legged lifts, such
as the SL DL, the SL bent-over row, and the GM. He summarized a
review of 287 people with herniated discs which concluded that
stiff-legged lifting was the number one cause.

If SL lifting is so dangerous, can the GM be done with one's knees
unlocked and slightly bent?

I think that's the normal way to do the GM (and anyway, I'd say stiff-legged
lifting = knees slightly bent, knee angle doesn't change; straight-leg =
knees locked).

The issue with stiff-leg lifts is that if you do stupid things, like failing
to maintain good form, then you'll find yourself trying to lift a weight
with your back in a weak position. Since most people in a gym don't care
about good form, and just care about getting the biggest weight up somehow,
it's maybe safest to just tell people not to do them. There's also the issue
that if you don't have enough hamstring flexibility, but you try to do SLDLs
or GMs bending over as far as you saw in a picture, then you will definitely
be doing the lift with poor form.

Peter

"Peter Allen" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What's the deal on this?

Dr. Colgan in The New Power Program writes that the Good Morning is
"one of the dill-brain stiff-legged exercises that most damages the
lower back." He advises people never to do stiff-legged lifts, such
as the SL DL, the SL bent-over row, and the GM. He summarized a
review of 287 people with herniated discs which concluded that
stiff-legged lifting was the number one cause.

If SL lifting is so dangerous, can the GM be done with one's knees
unlocked and slightly bent?

I think that's the normal way to do the GM (and anyway, I'd say
stiff-legged lifting = knees slightly bent, knee angle doesn't change;
straight-leg = knees locked).

The issue with stiff-leg lifts is that if you do stupid things, like
failing to maintain good form, then you'll find yourself trying to lift
a weight with your back in a weak position. Since most people in a gym
don't care about good form, and just care about getting the biggest
weight up somehow, it's maybe safest to just tell people not to do them.
There's also the issue that if you don't have enough hamstring
flexibility, but you try to do SLDLs or GMs bending over as far as you
saw in a picture, then you will definitely be doing the lift with poor
form.

And just to confuse the issue, some people do round-backed GMs where they
intentionally flex the spine. That might be what the guy looking at the
floor was doing.

FWIW I've taken up GMs to strengthen my back (on the "that which doesn't
kill you makes you stronger" principle, I guess). I'm working my way up
easy, never lifting beyond what I know I can do.

Hugh

--
Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will attend no other.

"Hugh Beyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Allen" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What's the deal on this?

Dr. Colgan in The New Power Program writes that the Good Morning is
"one of the dill-brain stiff-legged exercises that most damages the
lower back." He advises people never to do stiff-legged lifts, such
as the SL DL, the SL bent-over row, and the GM. He summarized a
review of 287 people with herniated discs which concluded that
stiff-legged lifting was the number one cause.

If SL lifting is so dangerous, can the GM be done with one's knees
unlocked and slightly bent?

I think that's the normal way to do the GM (and anyway, I'd say
stiff-legged lifting = knees slightly bent, knee angle doesn't
change;
straight-leg = knees locked).

The issue with stiff-leg lifts is that if you do stupid things, like
failing to maintain good form, then you'll find yourself trying to
lift
a weight with your back in a weak position. Since most people in a
gym
don't care about good form, and just care about getting the biggest
weight up somehow, it's maybe safest to just tell people not to do
them.
There's also the issue that if you don't have enough hamstring
flexibility, but you try to do SLDLs or GMs bending over as far as
you
saw in a picture, then you will definitely be doing the lift with
poor
form.

And just to confuse the issue, some people do round-backed GMs where
they
intentionally flex the spine. That might be what the guy looking at
the
floor was doing.

FWIW I've taken up GMs to strengthen my back (on the "that which
doesn't
kill you makes you stronger" principle, I guess). I'm working my way
up
easy, never lifting beyond what I know I can do.

This ain't yoga and a slight bend in the knee is fine. I've never done
these with a lot of weight but I know I need to slightly bend my knees
once I pass a certain point or I just end up hyperextending my knees. I
think the point of the "stiff" leg is to ensure that the motion isn't
accomplished by moving at the knee, not that the knee has to be locked
throughout the movement - a fine distinction, perhaps, but an important
one. I think many people with reasonably flexible hamstrings (including
me) would tell you that you've got to bend the knees slightly if you
want to work on your hamstring flexibility - not doing so puts the load
in the wrong place, namely right behind the knee instead of on the
hamstring.

If you're doing it to strengthen round-back lifting, that's a whole
other kettle of fish but I don't think many people do that with a heavy
weight.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Quoted message said:

What's the deal on this?

Dr. Colgan in The New Power Program writes that the Good Morning is
"one of the dill-brain stiff-legged exercises that most damages the
lower back." He advises people never to do stiff-legged lifts, such
as the SL DL, the SL bent-over row, and the GM. He summarized a
review of 287 people with herniated discs which concluded that
stiff-legged lifting was the number one cause.

If SL lifting is so dangerous, can the GM be done with one's knees
unlocked and slightly bent?

I want to do GMs because I've read it's great for your hamstrings
and, as a bonus, can help boost your squat numbers.

A couple more questions. The books say go no deeper than parallel and
not beyond the point where you lose the arch in your lower back.
How can I tell when I've lost this arch?

Also, where do you look? I have illustrations of different people
doing this exercise who seem like they're going to the same depth, but
one is looking at a point on the floor much closer to his feet than
the other. Is concentrating on keeping your butt out instead of
leaning forward a good way to ensure that you will always be "looking
straight ahead"?

Be careful with this exercise. Remember that Bruce Lee messed himself
up with one exercise, which didn't put him out of his workout routines
for a few days -- it sent him to the hospital. Guess which one it was.
He was in amazing physical condition too (no secret) until something
went wrong on this one. And he was no dummy about what his body could
and couldn't handle.

Suggest you do back extensions on a back extension bench. Put a 30
pound dumbbell on your neck and do sets of ten. Work up in weight
from there. Or start with a 15-pounder, whatever is comfortable for
you. Hardly anyone ever hurts themselves doing back extensions and you
work your glutes just as much too. Lots of people get away with doing
good mornings with no problems, but judge for yourself.

Old Timer

Peter Allen said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What's the deal on this?

Dr. Colgan in The New Power Program writes that the Good Morning is
"one of the dill-brain stiff-legged exercises that most damages the
lower back." He advises people never to do stiff-legged lifts, such
as the SL DL, the SL bent-over row, and the GM. He summarized a
review of 287 people with herniated discs which concluded that
stiff-legged lifting was the number one cause.

If SL lifting is so dangerous, can the GM be done with one's knees
unlocked and slightly bent?

I think that's the normal way to do the GM (and anyway, I'd say stiff-legged
lifting = knees slightly bent, knee angle doesn't change; straight-leg =
knees locked).

The issue with stiff-leg lifts is that if you do stupid things, like failing
to maintain good form, then you'll find yourself trying to lift a weight
with your back in a weak position. Since most people in a gym don't care
about good form, and just care about getting the biggest weight up somehow,
it's maybe safest to just tell people not to do them. There's also the issue
that if you don't have enough hamstring flexibility, but you try to do SLDLs
or GMs bending over as far as you saw in a picture, then you will definitely
be doing the lift with poor form.

Peter

Sounds right to me.

Steve Freides said:

"Hugh Beyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Allen" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> What's the deal on this?
>
> Dr. Colgan in The New Power Program writes that the Good Morning is
> "one of the dill-brain stiff-legged exercises that most damages the
> lower back." He advises people never to do stiff-legged lifts, such
> as the SL DL, the SL bent-over row, and the GM. He summarized a
> review of 287 people with herniated discs which concluded that
> stiff-legged lifting was the number one cause.
>
> If SL lifting is so dangerous, can the GM be done with one's knees
> unlocked and slightly bent?

I think that's the normal way to do the GM (and anyway, I'd say
stiff-legged lifting = knees slightly bent, knee angle doesn't
change;
straight-leg = knees locked).

The issue with stiff-leg lifts is that if you do stupid things, like
failing to maintain good form, then you'll find yourself trying to
lift
a weight with your back in a weak position. Since most people in a
gym
don't care about good form, and just care about getting the biggest
weight up somehow, it's maybe safest to just tell people not to do
them.
There's also the issue that if you don't have enough hamstring
flexibility, but you try to do SLDLs or GMs bending over as far as
you
saw in a picture, then you will definitely be doing the lift with
poor
form.

And just to confuse the issue, some people do round-backed GMs where
they
intentionally flex the spine. That might be what the guy looking at
the
floor was doing.

FWIW I've taken up GMs to strengthen my back (on the "that which
doesn't
kill you makes you stronger" principle, I guess). I'm working my way
up
easy, never lifting beyond what I know I can do.

This ain't yoga and a slight bend in the knee is fine. I've never done
these with a lot of weight but I know I need to slightly bend my knees
once I pass a certain point or I just end up hyperextending my knees. I
think the point of the "stiff" leg is to ensure that the motion isn't
accomplished by moving at the knee, not that the knee has to be locked
throughout the movement - a fine distinction, perhaps, but an important
one. I think many people with reasonably flexible hamstrings (including
me) would tell you that you've got to bend the knees slightly if you
want to work on your hamstring flexibility - not doing so puts the load
in the wrong place, namely right behind the knee instead of on the
hamstring.

If you're doing it to strengthen round-back lifting, that's a whole
other kettle of fish but I don't think many people do that with a heavy
weight.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Dr. Yessis (Kinesiology of Exercise) advises starting out with knees
slightly bent for better balance. He writes: "As an advanced exercise
the GM is done with the legs kept straight, and to do so, considerable
hip joint flexibility and balance are needed. Also, you must have
well-developed spinal and hip joint extensor muscles. Do not execute
this exercise in this manner until you meet these conditions."

Hmmm, think I'm gonna do it with knees slightly bent.

On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 18:19:03 -0400, Old Timer <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What's the deal on this?

Dr. Colgan in The New Power Program writes that the Good Morning is
"one of the dill-brain stiff-legged exercises that most damages the
lower back." He advises people never to do stiff-legged lifts, such
as the SL DL, the SL bent-over row, and the GM. He summarized a
review of 287 people with herniated discs which concluded that
stiff-legged lifting was the number one cause.

If SL lifting is so dangerous, can the GM be done with one's knees
unlocked and slightly bent?

I want to do GMs because I've read it's great for your hamstrings
and, as a bonus, can help boost your squat numbers.

A couple more questions. The books say go no deeper than parallel and
not beyond the point where you lose the arch in your lower back.
How can I tell when I've lost this arch?

Also, where do you look? I have illustrations of different people
doing this exercise who seem like they're going to the same depth, but
one is looking at a point on the floor much closer to his feet than
the other. Is concentrating on keeping your butt out instead of
leaning forward a good way to ensure that you will always be "looking
straight ahead"?

Be careful with this exercise. Remember that Bruce Lee messed himself
up with one exercise, which didn't put him out of his workout routines
for a few days -- it sent him to the hospital. Guess which one it was.
He was in amazing physical condition too (no secret) until something
went wrong on this one. And he was no dummy about what his body could
and couldn't handle.

Suggest you do back extensions on a back extension bench. Put a 30
pound dumbbell on your neck and do sets of ten. Work up in weight
from there. Or start with a 15-pounder, whatever is comfortable for
you. Hardly anyone ever hurts themselves doing back extensions and you
work your glutes just as much too. Lots of people get away with doing
good mornings with no problems, but judge for yourself.

Old Timer

Bruce Lee landed in the hospital because of the GM? OK, you succeeded
in worrying me. (I'm going to do GMs anyway, but the rule will be
very light weight and great form.)

Back extension bench as in Roman Chair? I do this already, but not
with a weight on my neck. Where did you learn to do this exercise
that way?

On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 14:01:17 GMT, Hugh Beyer <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Peter Allen" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What's the deal on this?

Dr. Colgan in The New Power Program writes that the Good Morning is
"one of the dill-brain stiff-legged exercises that most damages the
lower back." He advises people never to do stiff-legged lifts, such
as the SL DL, the SL bent-over row, and the GM. He summarized a
review of 287 people with herniated discs which concluded that
stiff-legged lifting was the number one cause.

If SL lifting is so dangerous, can the GM be done with one's knees
unlocked and slightly bent?

I think that's the normal way to do the GM (and anyway, I'd say
stiff-legged lifting = knees slightly bent, knee angle doesn't change;
straight-leg = knees locked).

The issue with stiff-leg lifts is that if you do stupid things, like
failing to maintain good form, then you'll find yourself trying to lift
a weight with your back in a weak position. Since most people in a gym
don't care about good form, and just care about getting the biggest
weight up somehow, it's maybe safest to just tell people not to do them.
There's also the issue that if you don't have enough hamstring
flexibility, but you try to do SLDLs or GMs bending over as far as you
saw in a picture, then you will definitely be doing the lift with poor
form.

And just to confuse the issue, some people do round-backed GMs where they
intentionally flex the spine. That might be what the guy looking at the
floor was doing.

That's not what it said and it didn't look like his back was rounded.
Anyway, I liked the other pic better where the guy was looking at a
point on the floor farther from his feet.

Quoted message said:

FWIW I've taken up GMs to strengthen my back (on the "that which doesn't
kill you makes you stronger" principle, I guess). I'm working my way up
easy, never lifting beyond what I know I can do.

Hugh

Yeah, me too <rubbing my shoulder and thinking about how I got
injured>

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 18:19:03 -0400, Old Timer <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What's the deal on this?

Dr. Colgan in The New Power Program writes that the Good Morning is
"one of the dill-brain stiff-legged exercises that most damages the
lower back." He advises people never to do stiff-legged lifts, such
as the SL DL, the SL bent-over row, and the GM. He summarized a
review of 287 people with herniated discs which concluded that
stiff-legged lifting was the number one cause.

If SL lifting is so dangerous, can the GM be done with one's knees
unlocked and slightly bent?

I want to do GMs because I've read it's great for your hamstrings
and, as a bonus, can help boost your squat numbers.

A couple more questions. The books say go no deeper than parallel and
not beyond the point where you lose the arch in your lower back.
How can I tell when I've lost this arch?

Also, where do you look? I have illustrations of different people
doing this exercise who seem like they're going to the same depth, but
one is looking at a point on the floor much closer to his feet than
the other. Is concentrating on keeping your butt out instead of
leaning forward a good way to ensure that you will always be "looking
straight ahead"?

Be careful with this exercise. Remember that Bruce Lee messed himself
up with one exercise, which didn't put him out of his workout routines
for a few days -- it sent him to the hospital. Guess which one it was.
He was in amazing physical condition too (no secret) until something
went wrong on this one. And he was no dummy about what his body could
and couldn't handle.

Suggest you do back extensions on a back extension bench. Put a 30
pound dumbbell on your neck and do sets of ten. Work up in weight
from there. Or start with a 15-pounder, whatever is comfortable for
you. Hardly anyone ever hurts themselves doing back extensions and you
work your glutes just as much too. Lots of people get away with doing
good mornings with no problems, but judge for yourself.

Old Timer

Bruce Lee landed in the hospital because of the GM? OK, you succeeded
in worrying me. (I'm going to do GMs anyway, but the rule will be
very light weight and great form.)

Back extension bench as in Roman Chair? I do this already, but not
with a weight on my neck. Where did you learn to do this exercise
that way?

I learned from watching a person at the gym. The bench is not a
horizontal Roman Chair, but a pure back extension bench. Looks exactly
like an upside down V. You can adjust the angle of the V and distance
between the foot blocks (supports both sides of the ankles, they're
not just foot rests) and the top of the hip pad . This is the kind my
gym has. There's confusion here because some Roman Chairs allow this
adjutment as a combo Roman Chair-Back Hyperextension bench.

Here's a snippet from one of my files (cannot give the source,
unfortunately)

[Good Mornings: A word of caution about this exercise. Lee performed
this movement to strengthen his lower back. However, one day in early
1970 he loaded up the bar with 135 pounds (his bodyweight at the time)
and -- without a warm up -- proceeded to knock off eight repetitions.
On his last rep he felt a "pop" and found out later that he had
damaged the fourth sacral nerve of his lower back. The result was the
Lee had to endure incredible back pain for the remainder of his life.
This is not to say that the movement is without merit, just make sure
that you perform an adequate warm-up prior to employing, it. Placing a
barbell across his shoulders, Lee would place his feet three inches
apart (Lee would later confide to Dan Inosanto "You really don't need
any weight but the empty bar on your shoulders Dan -- it's more of a
limbering movement"😉 and bend over from the waist keeping his hands on
the barbell at all times. Lee would bend over until his back was at a
90 degree angle to his hips and then return to the upright position.
Lee performed two sets of eight repetitions of this movement.]

Also see
http://www.dolfzine.com/page547.htm

And
http://www.ewmaa.com/bruceleefacts.html

But wait, there's more

[Picture this: The great Olympic weightlifter Vasily Alexeev's
ponderous body draped over a gymnastics long horse with his feet
wedged between the stall bars of an unbelievably archaic training gym
in Moscow's Lenin Institute of Sport. With four hundred pounds
precariously perched behind his head, he explodes for five reps of
back raises. There is virtually NO hip extensor involvement, only pure
erector spinae contraction. That means 1) tremendous low back limit
strength and speed-strength is developed far beyond what any other low
back exercise could possibly accomplish, and 2) virtually NO trauma to
the tenuous intervertebral discs of the lumbar spine, which is
something no other low back exercise ever conceived can claim.]

I remember Vasily. That man was STRONG!
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Field/7342/Atext5.html

Old Timer

Old Timer <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

[Picture this: The great Olympic weightlifter Vasily Alexeev's
ponderous body draped over a gymnastics long horse with his feet
wedged between the stall bars of an unbelievably archaic training gym
in Moscow's Lenin Institute of Sport. With four hundred pounds
precariously perched behind his head, he explodes for five reps of
back raises. There is virtually NO hip extensor involvement, only pure
erector spinae contraction. That means 1) tremendous low back limit
strength and speed-strength is developed far beyond what any other low
back exercise could possibly accomplish, and 2) virtually NO trauma to
the tenuous intervertebral discs of the lumbar spine, which is
something no other low back exercise ever conceived can claim.]

I'm having a real hard time picturing that. Since they say there's no hip
extensor involvement, has he got his belly draped over the horse?

Hugh

--
Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will attend no other.