Going Dutch

In "]news:[email hidden],
john clayton <[email hidden]> typed:

Quoted message said:

I like the enclosed appearance and design of typical Dutch
bikes. However, it seems that with more than 3 gears
(which I'd need in Edinburgh) you need to partly dismantle
the rear gear to change that wheel.

Anyone had any experience of doing this. Is it
straightforward?

With my 7 speed hub gear, you need to disconnect the gear
changer to change the rear wheel, but it all slots back into
place, so the only tool to remove the wheel is the spanner
for the wheel nuts. It can be a bit messy, but it's quite
straightforward.

Still fiddly enough that I've repaired punctures in
situ, though.

A

john clayton said:

I like the enclosed appearance and design of typical Dutch
bikes. However, it seems that with more than 3 gears
(which I'd need in Edinburgh) you need to partly dismantle
the rear gear to change that wheel.

There are hub gears with 3, 5, 7, 8 (fairly affordable) and
14 gears (14 is expensive).

Depending on the frame design (width of the rear axle), you
might be able to substitute one hub for another. The sizes
3,5,7,8 are available with hub brakes if you also want those
(seems like a good idea to me if you're already accepting
the hub gear).

Quoted message said:

Anyone had any experience of doing this. Is it
straightforward?

If its fully enclosed, then its always going to be a bit
complex. Most people would learn to fix punctures without
fully removing the rear wheel.

Your alternative might be a semi-enclosed chain guard.

Quoted message said:

Also, does anyone know of an enclosure for a derailleur
gear system. Is there such a thing?

Dunno. Somebody must have, but its not common.

However, given your stated preferences, perhaps a shaft-
driven bike might be what you're seeking. eg: kinetics.org.ukzero shaftOpen ↗
drive.html

Kinetics are in Glasgow and seem to attract positive
comments from the newsgroup.

- Nigel

--
NC - Webmaster for 2mm.org.uk2mm.org.ukOpen ↗ Replies to
newsgroup postings to the newsgroup please.

john clayton said:

I like the enclosed appearance and design of typical Dutch
bikes. However, it seems that with more than 3 gears
(which I'd need in Edinburgh) you need to partly dismantle
the rear gear to change that wheel.

I don't know about Dutch bikes, but Nexus 7 hubs have a
quick release mechanism on the gear cable at the hub end,
but it's not necessary to touch that when changing a *tyre*.
The wheel can be removed from the bike with the cable still
attached (but unclipped from frame) and placed besides the
bike where you can work on it. Not even always necessary to
do that when fixing a puncture if you can find the problem
and patch by removing just a bit of tyre, without removing
the wheel at all.

Versions with roller brake require detatching the brake
cable first (by undoing a nut and working a quick release
thingy) -- easy once you've got the knack.

Funily enough, I volunteered just this weekend to rebuild a
Nexus-hubbed wheel with a new rim for someone. Rim
transplant went fine but... hmmm, oh dear, getting it off
was a piece of cake but now I'm not sure about how that gear
cable gubbins goes back together! :-( Give me derailleur
gears any day. BTW, the wheel weighs over 3 kilos!!! (That's
with a Vuelta Tempest 700x19 alloy rim).

~PB

john clayton said:

I like the enclosed appearance and design of typical Dutch
bikes. However, it seems that with more than 3 gears
(which I'd need in Edinburgh) you need to partly dismantle
the rear gear to change that wheel.

Anyone had any experience of doing this. Is it
straightforward?

If the 3 gears are low enough that'll be good enough to get
around. I get round Dundee on a Brompton L3 with the
standard -18% gear reduction and it's fine. But as others
have pointed out, you can get hubs with more than 3 speeds
these days. Undoing the 3 on the Brom to remove the rear
wheel isn't that bad. There's a toggle chain that controls
the gear and this just clicks out. It is fiddlier than
taking out a derailleur back wheel on a QR skewer, but if
you have decent tyres (I use Schwalbe Marathons) then you
shouldn't get many punctures anyway.

Another thing to consider enclosing is the chain, which
again makes maintenance fiddlier when you do it, but basic
point is you don't generally need to do it nearly as often.

A modern city bike designed and built in the UK that takes
some Dutch roadster principles to heart without weighing
nearly so much is the Orion City 7. Have a look at orbit-orbit-Open ↗
cycles.co.uk/orion3.shtml and see what you think as a basis
for utility inspiration.

Quoted message said:

Also, does anyone know of an enclosure for a derailleur
gear system. Is there such a thing?

Yes, it's called a velomobile... ;-) see
velomobiel.nlvelomobiel.nlOpen ↗

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111
ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382
640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net
[email hidden] dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

john clayton said:

need to partly dismantle the rear gear to change
that wheel.

To change the wheel, yes. To change a tyre, no, if it's a
steel frame. Lift the tyre off the rim to the left, remove
the wheelnut on the lefthand side, pull the fork off the
axle (requires quite some force, or a nifty tool called a
forkextender) and slide the tyre between fork and axle.
Don't do this with an aluminium frame.

in message <[email hidden]>, Ambrose Nankivell

(') said:

In "]news:[email hidden],
john clayton <[email hidden]> typed:

Quoted message said:

I like the enclosed appearance and design of typical
Dutch bikes. However, it seems that with more than 3
gears (which I'd need in Edinburgh) you need to partly
dismantle the rear gear to change that wheel.

Anyone had any experience of doing this. Is it
straightforward?

With my 7 speed hub gear, you need to disconnect the gear
changer to change the rear wheel, but it all slots back
into place, so the only tool to remove the wheel is the
spanner for the wheel nuts. It can be a bit messy, but
it's quite straightforward.

Still fiddly enough that I've repaired punctures in
situ, though.

My memory of the days when I had a bike with an epicyclic
hub is that you had first to remove the joining link in the
drive chain before you could get the wheel out - with the
chain on there was not enough slack, and there was not
enough slack in the chain with it correctly adjusted to get
it off the chainwheel. How do you get round this problem?
And wouldn't it be even more awkward with a full chaincase?
My feeling is that if you're going for an enclosed chain you
really need to make it a monoblade so that you can get the
tyre off without messing about with the wheel.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke)
jasmine.org.uk~simonOpen ↗

Morning had broken, and we had run out of gas for
the welding torch.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Simon Brooke said:

that if you're going for an enclosed chain you really need
to make it a monoblade so that you can get the tyre off
without messing about with the wheel.

New Mike Burrows design in this month's Cycling+ does
exactly that.

ian

NC said:

If its fully enclosed, then its always going to be a bit
complex. Most people would learn to fix punctures without
fully removing the rear wheel.

Most of my hack bikes in the NL from childhood on had a
fully enclosed chain guard, coaster brakes and no quick
release anthing. I always fixed punctures without removing
the wheel (or losening anything other than the tires),
unless it was time for a new tube, or unless it was one of
those slow leaks that wouldn't reveal itself without total
immersion.

Only when I got into sporty bikes with quick releases I
discovered the joy of just quickly changing the tube 🙂

Roos

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My memory of the days when I had a bike with an epicyclic
hub is that you had first to remove the joining link in
the drive chain before you could get the wheel out - with
the chain on there was not enough slack, and there was not
enough slack in the chain with it correctly adjusted to
get it off the chainwheel. How do you get round this
problem? And wouldn't it be even more awkward with a full
chaincase? My feeling is that if you're going for an
enclosed chain you really need to make it a monoblade so
that you can get the tyre off without messing about with
the wheel.

All the bikes I've had with hub gears had forward facing
dropouts, so undo the wheel nuts and gear cable, push
fowards and take the wheel out in an entirely normal
fashion. Did you have funny droupouts or something?

(hmm. rear facing dropouts - well, I probably wouldn't be
aiming to have the chain tight enough to preclude derailing
off the chainring with the wheel fully forwards. so removal
would be like normal except with the additional step of
derailing the chain before pulling it out of the back).

Full chaincase - ah, yes, I'd be practicing my in-situ
puncture repairing then...

cheers, clive

Ewoud Dronkert [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

Don't do this with an aluminium frame.

I don't think you emphasised that nearly enough. Try this
will an alu frame and you stand a very good chance of
turning your bike into a monoblade!

Jon

Ian G Batten [email hidden] opined the
following...

Quoted message said:

In article <hg4or1-
[email hidden]>, Simon Brooke

Quoted message said:

that if you're going for an enclosed chain you really
need to make it a monoblade so that you can get the tyre
off without messing about with the wheel.

New Mike Burrows design in this month's Cycling+ does
exactly that.

Seen it in the flesh. Looks quite nice, though there's an
awful lot of CF for a city bike. What with there only being
two in the world (Apparently), I wasn't able to ride it but
I doubt it has many quirks.

Jon

In article <[email hidden]>,

Jon Senior jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk said:

Seen it in the flesh. Looks quite nice, though there's an
awful lot of CF for a city bike. What with there only
being two in the world

I don't think there's any intrinsic reason why carbon-fibre,
using pre-preg, should be any more labour intensive to work
with than fibre-glass, and given volumes the capital
requirement (autoclaves and such like) would be amortised.
The materials are expensive, but again volume would take it
down. I can't help thinking that in fifty years composites
will be the cromo of the age.

ian

Ian G Batten [email hidden] opined the
following...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Jon Senior jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk said:

Seen it in the flesh. Looks quite nice, though there's
an awful lot of CF for a city bike. What with there only
being two in the world

I don't think there's any intrinsic reason why carbon-
fibre, using pre-preg, should be any more labour intensive
to work with than fibre-glass, and given volumes the
capital requirement (autoclaves and such like) would be
amortised. The materials are expensive, but again volume
would take it down. I can't help thinking that in fifty
years composites will be the cromo of the age.

True. CF is apparently no harder to work with than fibre
glass, but the problem is the cost. Last time I checked CF
was about 7 times as expensive as GF for the basic material
and the resins are more expensive. While volume will bring
this down it has a long way to go.

That said. Given the recent rises in the prices of both
steel and aluminium, perhaps now is a good time to invest in
shares in CF.

Jon

in message <[email hidden]>, Clive George

Quoted message said:

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:hg4or1-
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My memory of the days when I had a bike with an epicyclic
hub is that you had first to remove the joining link in
the drive chain before you could get the wheel out - with
the chain on there was not enough slack, and there was
not enough slack in the chain with it correctly adjusted
to get it off the chainwheel. How do you get round this
problem? And wouldn't it be even more awkward with a full
chaincase? My feeling is that if you're going for an
enclosed chain you really need to make it a monoblade so
that you can get the tyre off without messing about with
the wheel.

All the bikes I've had with hub gears had forward facing
dropouts, so undo the wheel nuts and gear cable, push
fowards and take the wheel out in an entirely normal
fashion. Did you have funny droupouts or something?

I don't know that they were funny, but they certainly faced
the rear. They had caps which fitted over the open ends
through which projected bolts which you could adjust to
alter the chain tension. The bike was an ex-army job made, I
believe, sometime before 1945.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke)
jasmine.org.uk~simonOpen ↗

;; I'd rather live in sybar-space

in message <[email hidden]>, Ian G Batten

(') said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Jon Senior jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk said:

Seen it in the flesh. Looks quite nice, though there's an
awful lot of CF for a city bike. What with there only
being two in the world

I don't think there's any intrinsic reason why carbon-
fibre, using pre-preg, should be any more labour intensive
to work with than fibre-glass, and given volumes the
capital requirement (autoclaves and such like) would be
amortised.

You don't _need_ autoclaves for carbon fibre. You can vacuum-
bag it perfectly effectively with perfectly ordinary
polythene sheeting and a domestic vacuum cleaner.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke)
jasmine.org.uk~simonOpen ↗

...but have you *seen* the size of the world
wide spider?

in message <[email hidden]>, Jon Senior

jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk ('') said:

Ian G Batten [email hidden] opined the
following...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Jon Senior jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk said:

Seen it in the flesh. Looks quite nice, though there's
an awful lot of CF for a city bike. What with there
only being two in the world

I don't think there's any intrinsic reason why carbon-
fibre, using pre-preg, should be any more labour
intensive to work with than fibre-glass, and given
volumes the capital requirement (autoclaves and such
like) would be amortised. The materials are expensive,
but again volume would take it down. I can't help
thinking that in fifty years composites will be the cromo
of the age.

True. CF is apparently no harder to work with than fibre
glass, but the problem is the cost. Last time I checked CF
was about 7 times as expensive as GF for the basic
material and the resins are more expensive. While volume
will bring this down it has a long way to go.

The resin is just epoxy, similar to that used in boat-
building (in fact boat building epoxies work perfectly well
with carbon fabric). Pre-preg is considerably more expensive
largely because of the need for refrigerated storage, but if
you're prepared to wet out your own fabric it's less than
twice the price of GRP. I costed out skinning a nine metre
cat with CF and it wasn't frightening - under a thousand
pounds for two nine metre hulls. <URL:http://www.jasmine.or-
g.uk/~simon/boats/slippery/slippery_0_4.html>

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke)
jasmine.org.uk~simonOpen ↗

;; my other
religion is Emacs

Simon Brooke [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

You don't _need_ autoclaves for carbon fibre. You can vacuum-
bag it perfectly effectively with perfectly ordinary
polythene sheeting and a domestic vacuum cleaner.

That depends on what you are doing. The moulding techniques
involving pre-preg used by the pros involve high
temperatures and high pressures.

Jon

Simon Brooke [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

The resin is just epoxy, similar to that used in boat-
building (in fact boat building epoxies work perfectly
well with carbon fabric).

But with GF you can use polyester based resins (And with
some of the=20 fabrics you have to).

Quoted message said:

Pre-preg is considerably more expensive largely because of
the need for refrigerated storage, but if you're prepared
to wet out your own fabric it's less than twice the price
of GRP.=20

Where are you sourcing from?

Cfs charge =A32.67 + VAT for 1 square metre of 300g CSM GF
and =A315.65 + VAT for 1 square metre of 200g CF.

That's slightly more than "less than twice the price".

Quoted message said:

I costed out skinning a nine metre cat with CF and it
wasn't frightening - under a thousand pounds for two nine
metre hulls.=20 <URL:http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/boa-
ts/slippery/slippery_0_4.html>

I'd seriously love to have a play with CF. And I may well do
in a few=20 months, but the first project would definately
be to build a monofin for=20 my friend as that is a far
simpler project than building a bike frame!

Jon

in message <[email hidden]>, Jon Senior

jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk ('') said:

Simon Brooke [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

The resin is just epoxy, similar to that used in boat-
building (in fact boat building epoxies work perfectly
well with carbon fabric).

But with GF you can use polyester based resins (And with
some of the fabrics you have to).

True, but they're nothing like as good.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Pre-preg is considerably more expensive largely because
of the need for refrigerated storage, but if you're
prepared to wet out your own fabric it's less than twice
the price of GRP.

Where are you sourcing from?

Cfs charge £2.67 + VAT for 1 square metre of 300g CSM GF
and £15.65 + VAT for 1 square metre of 200g CF.

You're not comparing like with like. Chopped Strand Mat has
virtually no structural strength because all the fibres are
short and by definition they aren't aligned with the
direction of maximum stress. Even woven glass cloth is not
in the same league as CF because the tight radius of the
fibre in the weave greatly reduces its strength (although
woven cloth is good for abrasion resistance). It's only when
you get into unidirectional glass that you start to get a
material with serious strength properties, and the
difference in price between unidirectional glass and CF
cloth is not that great.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke)
jasmine.org.uk~simonOpen ↗ ,/| _.--''^``-...___.._.,;
/, \'. _-' ,--,,,--''' { \ `_-'' ' / `;;' ; ; ; ._..--''
._,,, _..' .;.' (,_....----''' (,..--''