Going carless

"paul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi all. I'm a long time lurker and occasional poster. I'm a darksider by
inclination, but
also have 'dale for playing in the dirt. Just thought I'd mention that as
way of intro 🙂

Anyway, for reasons of conscince and finance I'm consdiring going carless.
Can the panel
comment on the practicalities or such for a family with teenagers. We live
in a country
town (woodbridge) and I work from home, but my wife works Ipswich (8 miles
away) and she
is less inclined to ride her bike.

Try leaving the car parked exactly where it is now for a month.

If you survive then extent the time to 3 months then sell said car.

If not -- renegotiate.

I did not drive for six months -- but its too nice to have the facility
again. I should have sold the f****** thing.

T

Tony Raven said:

Simon Bennett wrote on 26/06/2006 15:30 +0100:

Quoted message said:

John B said:

Anyone who drives becomes part of the problem of
creating health problems, polluting our environment and increasing
congestion.

Even taxi drivers? ;-)

A serious point if you do it on environmental grounds. A taxi will
typically have to do twice the miles a private car would - the journey
to pick you up, your journey and the journey back to base. Then there
is all the mileage of the on-line shopping delivery drivers etc bringing
stuff from miles away instead of the local shops.... Its easy to think
you are reducing the problem when you are simply moving it to somewhere
else..

....snip...

I'll ignore the stuff about delivery drivers - never used that service.

Your complaint about taxis may not be well-founded. If you use taxis a
lot, then you might actually not make any environmental savings.
However, if you abandon your car and travel mostly by bike, using taxis
sparingly when bikes are simply not appropriate, then you are probably
making environmental savings even if using a taxi is not as efficient
as using your own car.

Don't look at the single trip. Look at the overall picture.

Jeff

[email hidden] wrote on 27/06/2006 01:27 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Tony Raven said:

Simon Bennett wrote on 26/06/2006 15:30 +0100:

Quoted message said:

John B wrote:

> Anyone who drives becomes part of the problem of
> creating health problems, polluting our environment and increasing
> congestion.
Even taxi drivers? ;-)

A serious point if you do it on environmental grounds. A taxi will
typically have to do twice the miles a private car would - the journey
to pick you up, your journey and the journey back to base. Then there
is all the mileage of the on-line shopping delivery drivers etc bringing
stuff from miles away instead of the local shops.... Its easy to think
you are reducing the problem when you are simply moving it to somewhere
else..

....snip...

I'll ignore the stuff about delivery drivers - never used that service.

Your complaint about taxis may not be well-founded. If you use taxis a
lot, then you might actually not make any environmental savings.
However, if you abandon your car and travel mostly by bike, using taxis
sparingly when bikes are simply not appropriate, then you are probably
making environmental savings even if using a taxi is not as efficient
as using your own car.

Don't look at the single trip. Look at the overall picture.

Or keep the car and restrict yourself only to the trips you would have
used a taxi for. I use the train a lot with a Brompton which cut about
10k miles a year of driving out and increasingly using a Streetcar
(http://www.streetcar.co.uk) for occasional journeys instead of a taxi.

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote on 26/06/2006 23:22 +0100:

Quoted message said:

The mini-cabs I use have radios and the taxis have radio/computer
equipment; they go to the nearest appropriate job, not 'back to base',
reducing pollution etc...

For me the nearest appropriate taxi is virtually always in town which is
a drive out to my place. London cabs seem to spend lots of time driving
around looking for a fare when they don't have one. I am sure you can
find situations where it is not the case but it is not a panacea for
reducing environmental impact.

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

paul said:

I might have to reduce to one old jelopey instead
of two nearly new cars rather thatn just go without.

Works for us; one crumbly Volkswagen* does everything we need, and we have
two young children. Then, we've never had more than one car -- that /would/
be wasteful.

*Soon to be replaced by a brand-spanking new Touran courtesy of the nice
people at Motability. They also pay servicing, tyres, VED, etc -- nice!

Tony Raven said:

[email hidden] wrote on 27/06/2006 01:27 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Your complaint about taxis may not be well-founded. If you use taxis a
lot, then you might actually not make any environmental savings.
However, if you abandon your car and travel mostly by bike, using taxis
sparingly when bikes are simply not appropriate, then you are probably
making environmental savings even if using a taxi is not as efficient
as using your own car.

Don't look at the single trip. Look at the overall picture.

Or keep the car and restrict yourself only to the trips you would have
used a taxi for.

I would guess for most people that would be quite difficult, the temptation
would be too much.

--
Andy Leighton => [email hidden]
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

In article said:

to pick you up, your journey and the journey back to base. Then there
is all the mileage of the on-line shopping delivery drivers etc bringing
stuff from miles away instead of the local shops....

But doing a loop past several houses with deliveries is less mileage
than someone from each of those houses driving to the same place the
truck came from. If the local shops are local enough and well stocked
enough it's more efficient to have the truck just drive from the depot
to the store and everyone to go to the store, but they often aren't.

Simon Bennett said:

*Soon to be replaced by a brand-spanking new Touran courtesy of the
nice people at Motability. They also pay servicing, tyres, VED, etc

If you qualify for the mobility component of DLA, VED is free anyway.

Motability doesn't seem like such a good deal when you realise that
manufactures will give you 20% off the list price on a new car if you
qualify for a blue badge, plus, if your new car has "adaptations" fitted
before it leaves the garage (i.e. hand controls) you pay no VAT.

With Motability, after making an advance payment of between £499 and £6535
(depending on spec) and paying approx £6403.80 (your full mobility component
over three years) you still don't own anything.1

1http://www.motabilityonline.co.uk/site/current_prices/priceL
ist/priceListDLAByVehicleDetails.jsp?formContextKey=&sea
rchVehicleCategory=&searchManufacturer=Volkswagen&se
archModel=Touran&searchTrim=&searchBodyDoors=&se
archBodyType=&searchTransmissionType=&searchFuelType
=&searchEngineSize=&searchAdvancePayment=&userAc
tion=Search&userAction=criteriaChange

http://tinyurl.com/jhm6h

Tom
--
Return address is dead. Real address is at
http://toomanybikes.com/address.jpg

Tom said:

[about Motability and other options]

Thanks for that, Tom. It's my 8 year-old son who qualifies. We'll bear these
points in mind when we come to make the decision.

Tony W said:

If you survive then extent the time to 3 months...

....over winter.

--
Arthur Clune

In article <[email hidden]>, Tony W
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

I did not drive for six months -- but its too nice to have the facility
again. I should have sold the f****** thing.

Living in London and watching my car devalue thanks to the weather and
the attentions of the local youths, I felt more and more like selling it
with each passing month, but didn't know where to start. I already
cycled to work every day and only used the car for shopping and
occasional out of town jaunts at weekends, or holidays.

Luckily, it got stolen, taking that particular problem out of my life
eight years ago.

--
congokid
Eating out in London? Read my tips...
http://congokid.com

congokid said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Tony W
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

I did not drive for six months -- but its too nice to have the facility
again. I should have sold the f****** thing.

Living in London and watching my car devalue thanks to the weather and
the attentions of the local youths, I felt more and more like selling it
with each passing month, but didn't know where to start.

Autotrader.co.uk. I sold mine in a day. (Unfortunately to buy a bigger
one, but it still gets used just as little.)

Quoted message said:

I already
cycled to work every day and only used the car for shopping and
occasional out of town jaunts at weekends, or holidays.

Luckily, it got stolen, taking that particular problem out of my life
eight years ago.

Ahh! A Carry Freedom trailer could be good..

...d

paul said:

Hi all. I'm a long time lurker and occasional poster. I'm a darksider by inclination, but
also have 'dale for playing in the dirt. Just thought I'd mention that as way of intro 🙂

Anyway, for reasons of conscince and finance I'm consdiring going carless. Can the panel
comment on the practicalities or such for a family with teenagers. We live in a country
town (woodbridge) and I work from home, but my wife works Ipswich (8 miles away) and she
is less inclined to ride her bike.

Sell the car(s). Buy a van.

You now have sensible practical powered transport for when you really
need it, but will find the temptation to just hop in for every trip
significantly less. You can also now easily carry several bikes, so if
you all want to go on family leisure rides in areas away from home, you
can.

"Arthur Clune" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tony W said:

If you survive then extent the time to 3 months...

...over winter.

Nowt wrong with winter -- you just need the right clobber.

To some extent I prefer cool crisp days to the hot and sweaty of summer.

Ice cold rain down the back of the neck is, however, not nice -- but OP will
have saved so much he will be able to hire a cab or even a car for a couple
of days.

Not owning a car is not the same as not having a car available (with a
little planning) when you want one.

T

Pyromancer said:

paul said:

Hi all. I'm a long time lurker and occasional poster. I'm a darksider by inclination, but
also have 'dale for playing in the dirt. Just thought I'd mention that as way of intro 🙂

Anyway, for reasons of conscince and finance I'm consdiring going carless. Can the panel
comment on the practicalities or such for a family with teenagers. We live in a country
town (woodbridge) and I work from home, but my wife works Ipswich (8 miles away) and she
is less inclined to ride her bike.

Sell the car(s). Buy a van.

You now have sensible practical powered transport for when you really
need it, but will find the temptation to just hop in for every trip
significantly less. You can also now easily carry several bikes, so if
you all want to go on family leisure rides in areas away from home, you
can.

The Fiat Doblo came recommended in the CTC comic a few months back.
Loads of room for bikes with wheels attached.

in message <[email hidden]>, Tony Raven

(') said:

A serious point if you do it on environmental grounds. A taxi will
typically have to do twice the miles a private car would - the journey
to pick you up, your journey and the journey back to base. Then there
is all the mileage of the on-line shopping delivery drivers etc
bringing stuff from miles away instead of the local shops....

That's rubbish.

When we get a delivery from Tescos, our goods arrive on a van with a
diesel engine no larger than the engine of an average saloon car. The
van delivers to about fifty households in a day. On the run out to use
it will typically have made at least five drop-offs, and on the
completion of it's loop it will typically make another five. So instead
of us driving a 42 mile round trip, the van has made a fifty mile round
trip and delivered eleven households' groceries, for about 5 miles worth
of diesel and road congestion per household.

If we go and shop (which we normally do do, mainly for political reasons)
we'll go into town, eight miles, for general groceries and butcher-meat;
we'll then go out to Loch Arthur, another twelve miles, for organic
vegetables and dairy product; and then we'll come twelve miles home, for
a round trip of thirty-two miles. But - we won't buy as much as we do
when we order from Tescos online, so we'll do more than one local
shopping trip for every Tescos trip we do.

I don't much like Tescos. But from a saving-the-planet point of view
their vans use far less fuel to deliver goods the final step from store
to home than everyone driving in individually in their cars. Of course,
if you're then going to buy peas from Kenya and asparagus from Peru the
point is a little moot.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Just as defying the law of gravity through building aircraft requires
careful design and a lot of effort, so too does defying laws of
economics. It seems to be a deeply ingrained aspect of humanity to
forever strive to improve things, so unquestioning acceptance of a
free market system seems to me to be unnatural. ;; Charles Bryant

Simon Brooke wrote on 28/06/2006 12:48 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Of course,
if you're then going to buy peas from Kenya and asparagus from Peru the
point is a little moot.

Another case where you need to think it through. It can often use less
fuel to grow some crops in hot environments and transport them than to
grow them locally. Of course you can give up eating them all together
or only eat seasonal local produce. But neeps and tatties can get
boring after a while ;-)

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

in message <[email hidden]>, Tony Raven

(') said:

Simon Brooke wrote on 28/06/2006 12:48 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Of course,
if you're then going to buy peas from Kenya and asparagus from Peru
the point is a little moot.

Another case where you need to think it through. It can often use less
fuel to grow some crops in hot environments and transport them than to
grow them locally.

Peas and asparagus from down the garden, however, use very little fuel at
all. And in terms of food minutes, ten minutes from garden to table
strikes me as just about ideal. Mind you, it'll be another year before
we can get a crop off the asparagus bed.

Quoted message said:

Of course you can give up eating them all together
or only eat seasonal local produce. But neeps and tatties can get
boring after a while ;-)

Don't knock it. There are few things better, as the poet said:

Is there that owre his French ragout,
Or olio that wad staw a sow,
Or fricassee wad mak her spew
Wi perfect scunner,
Looks down wi sneering, scornfu view
On sic a dinner?

Poor devil! see him owre his trash,
As feckless as a wither'd rash,
His spindle shank a guid whip-lash,
His nieve a nit:
Thro bloody flood or field to dash,
O how unfit!

But mark the Rustic, haggis-fed,
The trembling earth resounds his tread,
Clap in his walie nieve a blade,
He'll make it whissle;
An legs an arms, an heads will sned,
Like taps o thrissle.

Oh, and none of your peelie-wallie undersized English turnips, either;
there's no eating on them for man nor beast.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Ring of great evil
Small one casts it into flame
Bringing rise of Men ;; gonzoron

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Tony Raven

(') said:

Simon Brooke wrote on 28/06/2006 12:48 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Of course,
if you're then going to buy peas from Kenya and asparagus from Peru
the point is a little moot.

Another case where you need to think it through. It can often use less
fuel to grow some crops in hot environments and transport them than to
grow them locally.

Peas and asparagus from down the garden, however, use very little fuel at
all. And in terms of food minutes, ten minutes from garden to table
strikes me as just about ideal. Mind you, it'll be another year before
we can get a crop off the asparagus bed.

There is something quite pleasurable in not having everything on tap
whenever, wherever. We have just got into the strawberry season (why
does it coincide with holiday?) so now will eat our fill for a month or
so, freeze a load and enjoy.

The first courgettes of the year were eaten this week, broad beans will
be another month. Tomatoes need to ripen, and we are really, really
looking forward to the sweetcorm (just started flowering). Corn on the
cob picked and in boiling water 5 mins later cannot be beaten for
sweetness. You really don't know untill you try it. If it has been off
the plant more than 30 mins the taste goes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Of course you can give up eating them all together
or only eat seasonal local produce. But neeps and tatties can get
boring after a while ;-)

Don't knock it. There are few things better, as the poet said:

We had potatoes and onions through till March. A bit of a screwup with
watering last summer meant no winter broccoli, but that shouldn't be
the case this year.

Quoted message said:

Oh, and none of your peelie-wallie undersized English turnips, either;
there's no eating on them for man nor beast.

Just cos you can't tell the difference between a turnip and a swede..

...d

David Martin said:

There is something quite pleasurable in not having everything on tap
whenever, wherever.

Indeed. Having strawberries available all year round just lessens your
appreciation of them - a problem that is exacerbated by the fact that
the imported out-of-season ones are truly [censored]. There is still nothing
to match the pleasure of eating a homegrown seasonal strawberry.

Quoted message said:

Corn on the
cob picked and in boiling water 5 mins later cannot be beaten for
sweetness. You really don't know untill you try it. If it has been off
the plant more than 30 mins the taste goes.

Couldn't agree more.

Quoted message said:

Just cos you can't tell the difference between a turnip and a swede..

We've had both as manager of the England football team.

d.