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In article <aPtUd.18664$yr.1351@okepread05>,

Carl Sundquist said:

"MagillaGorilla" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But I will say if cycling were a
little more professional and mainstream, bike races would have prize
money comparable to other premiere sporting events such as Wimbledon,
Daytona 500, The Masters, The Kentucky Derby.

Maybe, maybe not. I don't think the Kentucky Derby winner wins all that much
money. Most of the profits come from stud fees. NASCAR isn't a good example,
either. There probably isn't a single team that meets their operating budget
with prize money.

I imagine there have been some slight changes over the years, but when I
paid attention to NASCAR a few years ago, you could see serious
discrepancies in prize money versus finishing postion. Fro example, a guy
who finished 20th might get (much) more money than a guy who finished 10th.
It had to do with various "programs" the teams were on and that was
actually contingency money coming from various series sponsors. But that
money still counted as prize money. You are correct regarding teams
operating budgets and prize money.

--
tanx,
Howard

Butter is love.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Carl Sundquist said:

"MagillaGorilla" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>Ok, you're right. I take it back. Winning KBK is just like winning
>>>Paris-Roubaix, Fleche, Liege, the Giro, the Olympics, worlds, or the
>>>Tour de France.
>>>
>>>That's why all those races aren't on OLN or NBC here in the US and KBK
>>>is.

>>OLN and NBC are your markers for prestige in bike races?
>>
>>I didn't realize what a fair weather cycling enthusiast you are.
>>
>
>Well, actually telvision coverage is a great barometer for the
>importance of a bike race. And if you ask thhe guy who runs OLN, he'll
>tell you thhe same thing.
>
>It sure beats race "history"...whatever that means. Prize money is also
>importannt for pro races.
>
>Magilla

Thanks for your US-centric POV

What's the % of LANCE's (or Ulrich's for that matter) prize earnings
compared to his annual income?

I see what you're trying to do here and I'm not going to take the bait.
You entrapped me into this.

I didn't entrap you. You chose to put Hincapie's win on a value based on US
television broadcast interests. You could have used Formula 1 as a parallel
argument from a US POV, but clearly that is not the only view that matters.
The win _is_ a fine accomplishment.

Quoted message said:

I stand by the TV = important though.

Agreed, but it isn't just US TV that matters. Again, I reference Formula 1
as an example. Soccer, too.

Quoted message said:

But I will say if cycling were a
little more professional and mainstream, bike races would have prize
money comparable to other premiere sporting events such as Wimbledon,
Daytona 500, The Masters, The Kentucky Derby.

Maybe, maybe not. I don't think the Kentucky Derby winner wins all that much
money. Most of the profits come from stud fees. NASCAR isn't a good example,
either. There probably isn't a single team that meets their operating budget
with prize money.

Quoted message said:

Right now, the prize money for winning the Westminster Dog Show is more
than for winning USPRO in Philadelphia.

That's not saying much. If you have a great day on a game show you can win
more than winning USPRO Philly. You've got cable TV home restoration shows
where the hosts probably make more than 95% of the peloton.

Quoted message said:

Most riders care about the prize money...except for guys like Ullrich
and LA.

I'm sure they won't turn it away, but IIRC the first or second year 7-Eleven
rode Paris-Roubaix, each rider got a $10k bonus from the team just to
finish. What did the last place on the podium payfor PR in 2004?

Quoted message said:

There's not a single US domestic pro who will tell you they don't care
about prize money.

I agree. Look at Crit Pro. But the subject was Hincapie, not domestic pros.
Even so, Hincapie probably doesn't even get enough gross prize money from
KBK to pay the annual rent on his place in Spain.

Why would Hincapie strive to wiin KBK anyway? Does the Discovery
Channel have a channel in Europe or something? Hincapie should try to
win USPRO or Georgia. I don't understand how his job could be to win
races that do nothing for the title sponsor.

The goddamn race isn't even on OLN.

Magilla

Tom Kunich said:

"MagillaGorilla" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I stand by the TV = important though.

So the Tour of Georgia is more important than the Giro d'Italia?

No...the Giro gets more airtime on OLN than Georgia.

Magilla

Carl Sundquist said:

"MagillaGorilla" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

I stand by the TV = important though. But I will say if cycling were a
little more professional and mainstream, bike races would have prize
money comparable to other premiere sporting events such as Wimbledon,
Daytona 500, The Masters, The Kentucky Derby.

A full World Series share for the Red Sox was $223,619.79, the Patriots
each earned $68,000 for winning the Super Bowl. At his peak salary Michael
Jordan was earning about $44,000 _per_regular_season_game. Each of the
Detroit Pistons earned about $121,000 for winning the 2004 NBA Finals, a 5
game series.

It wasn't about the prize money, it was about the victory.

That's still significantly more money than anything in cycling. However
your examle above are incongruous. Michael Jordan's salry was paid by
his team, not the NBA.

Winning Daytona gets you $1 million....winning the US Open gets you
$750,000.

What does winning Sea Otter or Redlands get you? $6,500 maybe?

Magilla

Tom Kunich said:

"MagillaGorilla" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Well, actually telvision coverage is a great barometer for the importance
of a bike race. And if you ask thhe guy who runs OLN, he'll tell you thhe
same thing.

Who was here trying to convince us of this character's intelligence? No one?
That's the way I remember it.

Quoted message said:

It sure beats race "history"...whatever that means. Prize money is also
importannt for pro races.

I'm certainly glad that you know so much about bike racing. Bet you know a
great deal more about bed wetting though.

Michael Landon wet his bed until he was 13 and then made the TV movie
Lonliest Runner based on it. It was easily his best performance.

Magilla

"MagillaGorilla" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I stand by the TV = important though. But I will say if cycling were a
little more professional and mainstream, bike races would have prize
money comparable to other premiere sporting events such as Wimbledon,
Daytona 500, The Masters, The Kentucky Derby.

A full World Series share for the Red Sox was $223,619.79, the Patriots
each earned $68,000 for winning the Super Bowl. At his peak salary

Michael

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Jordan was earning about $44,000 _per_regular_season_game. Each of the
Detroit Pistons earned about $121,000 for winning the 2004 NBA Finals, a

5

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

game series.

It wasn't about the prize money, it was about the victory.

That's still significantly more money than anything in cycling. However
your examle above are incongruous. Michael Jordan's salry was paid by
his team, not the NBA.

I know. It illustrates the value of the prize vs. prize money. Jordan's
salary just shows how insignificant the prize money is.

Quoted message said:

Winning Daytona gets you $1 million....winning the US Open gets you
$750,000.

What does winning Sea Otter or Redlands get you? $6,500 maybe?

OK, I'll play along. What do you think it should be?

Carl Sundquist said:

"MagillaGorilla" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>I stand by the TV = important though. But I will say if cycling were a
>little more professional and mainstream, bike races would have prize
>money comparable to other premiere sporting events such as Wimbledon,
>Daytona 500, The Masters, The Kentucky Derby.
>

A full World Series share for the Red Sox was $223,619.79, the Patriots
each earned $68,000 for winning the Super Bowl. At his peak salary

Michael

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Jordan was earning about $44,000 _per_regular_season_game. Each of the
Detroit Pistons earned about $121,000 for winning the 2004 NBA Finals, a

5

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

game series.

It wasn't about the prize money, it was about the victory.

That's still significantly more money than anything in cycling. However
your examle above are incongruous. Michael Jordan's salry was paid by
his team, not the NBA.

I know. It illustrates the value of the prize vs. prize money. Jordan's
salary just shows how insignificant the prize money is.

Quoted message said:

Winning Daytona gets you $1 million....winning the US Open gets you
$750,000.

What does winning Sea Otter or Redlands get you? $6,500 maybe?

OK, I'll play along. What do you think it should be?

I don't have a specific figure, but the prize money of many NRC events
is a disgrace compared to other 'pro' sports. Too many pro teams get
gay about racing for peanuts.

Magilla

Dan Spisak said:

George Hincapie wins K-B-K. The best part is that he outsmarted the
other specialists and showed great strenth in his atacks. Good for him.

All the more impressive after riding in Het Volk the day before.

"Carl Sundquist" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:aPtUd.18664$yr.1351@okepread05...

Quoted message said:

Even so, Hincapie probably doesn't even get enough gross prize money from
KBK to pay the annual rent on his place in Spain.

He would have got between 3000-4000 euros (don't forget the stuffed ass). I
think first place for Het Volk was under 4000 euros, so KBK would probably
be less than that. Even World Cups don't pay that much prize money.

Jeff

MagillaGorilla said:

Why would Hincapie strive to wiin KBK anyway? Does the Discovery
Channel have a channel in Europe or something? Hincapie should try

to

Quoted message said:

win USPRO or Georgia. I don't understand how his job could be to win

Quoted message said:

races that do nothing for the title sponsor.

The goddamn race isn't even on OLN.

Magilla

Isn't Berry Floor his sponsor too?

Kenny

Jesse T said:

I loved watching Devolder and Boonen bash each other's heads in.

That

Quoted message said:

was great stuff. Devolder is really fun to watch. Anybody got any
backstory to the comments in the post-race interview about him being
strong but stupid?

He replied he was just trying to make the race hard. He had excellent
legs and he knew there were other members in his team who were able to
ride a hard final too. So i he wasn't able to win maybe some other
discovery channel'er could. He was trying to prevent bunch sprints
because nobody at Discovery could beat guys like Boonen, McEwen or
O'grady. And thanx to Devolder we saw two good races with a peloton
that was totally splintered.

Kenny

"MagillaGorilla" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What does winning Sea Otter or Redlands get you? $6,500 maybe?

OK, I'll play along. What do you think it should be?

I don't have a specific figure, but the prize money of many NRC events
is a disgrace compared to other 'pro' sports. Too many pro teams get
gay about racing for peanuts.

That's another way of saying too many teams (and riders) get gay about
racing as pros.

Generally speaking, in the hierarchy of sports from top level down to
amateur, give a equivalent of where you think US domestic professional
bicycle racing is in other sports.

What if we rolled the clock back to the rules/pro team structures we had 20
years ago? It really didn't make a difference whether the race or the teams
were pro or amateur. There weren't enough pro riders to fill out a field, so
most races were Pro 1/2. Has the liberal increase in issuing pro riders'
licenses and pro team licenses made a big difference? Even now, the USPRO
road championships is open for foreign riders and teams.

Isn't it about now that Pom Pom should jump in, espousing economic theories?

On a different issue (not trying to entrap you, I promise), how do you see
the quality of American domestic professional bicycle racing compared to
domestic professional bicycle racing in other countries? Domestic
professional bicycle racing meaning the field is comprised of at least 80%
teams based in that country.

Carl Sundquist said:

"MagillaGorilla" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>What does winning Sea Otter or Redlands get you? $6,500 maybe?
>

OK, I'll play along. What do you think it should be?

I don't have a specific figure, but the prize money of many NRC events
is a disgrace compared to other 'pro' sports. Too many pro teams get
gay about racing for peanuts.

That's another way of saying too many teams (and riders) get gay about
racing as pros.

Generally speaking, in the hierarchy of sports from top level down to
amateur, give a equivalent of where you think US domestic professional
bicycle racing is in other sports.

What if we rolled the clock back to the rules/pro team structures we had 20
years ago? It really didn't make a difference whether the race or the teams
were pro or amateur. There weren't enough pro riders to fill out a field, so
most races were Pro 1/2. Has the liberal increase in issuing pro riders'
licenses and pro team licenses made a big difference? Even now, the USPRO
road championships is open for foreign riders and teams.

Isn't it about now that Pom Pom should jump in, espousing economic theories?

On a different issue (not trying to entrap you, I promise), how do you see
the quality of American domestic professional bicycle racing compared to
domestic professional bicycle racing in other countries? Domestic
professional bicycle racing meaning the field is comprised of at least 80%
teams based in that country.

I think the winner of a US pro/NRC race needs to get AT LEAST $10,000
especially when you consider he's got to split that with like 6 other
guys. That's a significant dilution factor that almost no other sport
has to contend with.

Making comparisons to 20 years ago is neither here nor there. Once
Lance leaves the sport, you likely won't have a U.S. company like
Discovery kicking in $15 million/year for a D1 team with medicore riders.

I think the US pro domestic scene has been slowly improving overall, but
the RATE of improvement pales in comparison to baseball, football, and
basketball. You can throw NASCAR in there even though it's not a sport
and their drivers by no means athletes (except in their own mind)

The problem with US cycling is complex. I think the quality of the US
domestic scene is probably comparable to any European country. The
bigest difference with the NRC is you have to get on a plane every
weekend. In Europe, it's less expensive to have a team compete in a
particular country/region.

Magilla

Carl Sundquist said:

I didn't entrap you. You chose to put Hincapie's win on a value based
on US television broadcast interests. You could have used Formula 1
as a parallel argument from a US POV, but clearly that is not the
only view that matters. The win _is_ a fine accomplishment.

Quoted message said:

I agree. Look at Crit Pro. But the subject was Hincapie, not domestic
pros. Even so, Hincapie probably doesn't even get enough gross prize
money from KBK to pay the annual rent on his place in Spain.

Sunny, why are you even arguing with Apey's ridiculous position on
this. I bet the Tour of Qatar pays more prize money than the
Tour of Flanders.

Apey, I'm impressed by how [censored] you are that Hincapie won a
real race. I hope Georgie Porgie gets it together to win Flanders
or Roubaix someday. Not because I worship Georgie Porgie, but
also because it will [censored] you off. And because it will make him
the first US rider to win one of the five monuments - the first US
rider not later busted for a doping violation, that is. (Assuming
Georgie Porgie can keep his nose clean. Sometimes people bust
on him for racing dumb, but he doesn't seem to have done anything
quite as dumb as your pet Tyler the Terrier.)

Quoted message said:

Carl Sundquist said:

I didn't entrap you. You chose to put Hincapie's win on a value

based

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

on US television broadcast interests. You could have used Formula 1
as a parallel argument from a US POV, but clearly that is not the
only view that matters. The win _is_ a fine accomplishment.

Quoted message said:

I agree. Look at Crit Pro. But the subject was Hincapie, not

domestic

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pros. Even so, Hincapie probably doesn't even get enough gross

prize

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

money from KBK to pay the annual rent on his place in Spain.

Sunny, why are you even arguing with Apey's ridiculous position on
this. I bet the Tour of Qatar pays more prize money than the
Tour of Flanders.

Apey, I'm impressed by how [censored] you are that Hincapie won a
real race. I hope Georgie Porgie gets it together to win Flanders
or Roubaix someday. Not because I worship Georgie Porgie, but
also because it will [censored] you off. And because it will make him
the first US rider to win one of the five monuments - the first US
rider not later busted for a doping violation, that is. (Assuming
Georgie Porgie can keep his nose clean. Sometimes people bust
on him for racing dumb, but he doesn't seem to have done anything
quite as dumb as your pet Tyler the Terrier.)

The other thing I don't understand about Ape Boy is that he busts on
people who throw praise at US riders doing well abroad (think J. Page
and the other cross boys in Europe) and claims that we shouldn't be
talking about them unless they win some races, then George wins a
fairly big race, and he still says this isn't good enough. So which
way is it going to be Magilla?? Is it not OK to win a smaller classic
race? Are the so-called "big races" the only ones we should say,
"Hey, great job!". What's your major malfunction Private Pile??

Tom

Kenny said:

MagillaGorilla said:

Why would Hincapie strive to wiin KBK anyway? Does the Discovery
Channel have a channel in Europe or something? Hincapie should try

to

Quoted message said:

win USPRO or Georgia. I don't understand how his job could be to win

Quoted message said:

races that do nothing for the title sponsor.

The goddamn race isn't even on OLN.

Magilla

Isn't Berry Floor his sponsor too?

Kenny

Does Discovery Channel broadcast in Europe?

Jesse T said:

Does Discovery Channel broadcast in Europe?

Yes, for starters it's included in almost all cable subscriptions in
Holland.

Ewoud Dronkert said:

Jesse T said:

Does Discovery Channel broadcast in Europe?

Yes, for starters it's included in almost all cable subscriptions in
Holland.

I stand corrected.

Magilla

Quoted message said:

Carl Sundquist said:

I didn't entrap you. You chose to put Hincapie's win on a value based
on US television broadcast interests. You could have used Formula 1
as a parallel argument from a US POV, but clearly that is not the
only view that matters. The win _is_ a fine accomplishment.

Quoted message said:

I agree. Look at Crit Pro. But the subject was Hincapie, not domestic
pros. Even so, Hincapie probably doesn't even get enough gross prize
money from KBK to pay the annual rent on his place in Spain.

Sunny, why are you even arguing with Apey's ridiculous position on
this. I bet the Tour of Qatar pays more prize money than the
Tour of Flanders.

Apey, I'm impressed by how [censored] you are that Hincapie won a
real race. I hope Georgie Porgie gets it together to win Flanders
or Roubaix someday. Not because I worship Georgie Porgie, but
also because it will [censored] you off. And because it will make him
the first US rider to win one of the five monuments - the first US
rider not later busted for a doping violation, that is. (Assuming
Georgie Porgie can keep his nose clean. Sometimes people bust
on him for racing dumb, but he doesn't seem to have done anything
quite as dumb as your pet Tyler the Terrier.)

Dumbass,

Why would I get [censored] if Georgio wins a big race? Where did I say
that? I just said KBK ain't that big of a deal.

Try leaning how to read before you talk smack.

Magilla

Tom said:

Quoted message said:

Carl Sundquist said:

I didn't entrap you. You chose to put Hincapie's win on a value

based

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

on US television broadcast interests. You could have used Formula 1
as a parallel argument from a US POV, but clearly that is not the
only view that matters. The win _is_ a fine accomplishment.

Quoted message said:

I agree. Look at Crit Pro. But the subject was Hincapie, not

domestic

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pros. Even so, Hincapie probably doesn't even get enough gross

prize

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

money from KBK to pay the annual rent on his place in Spain.

Sunny, why are you even arguing with Apey's ridiculous position on
this. I bet the Tour of Qatar pays more prize money than the
Tour of Flanders.

Apey, I'm impressed by how [censored] you are that Hincapie won a
real race. I hope Georgie Porgie gets it together to win Flanders
or Roubaix someday. Not because I worship Georgie Porgie, but
also because it will [censored] you off. And because it will make him
the first US rider to win one of the five monuments - the first US
rider not later busted for a doping violation, that is. (Assuming
Georgie Porgie can keep his nose clean. Sometimes people bust
on him for racing dumb, but he doesn't seem to have done anything
quite as dumb as your pet Tyler the Terrier.)

The other thing I don't understand about Ape Boy is that he busts on
people who throw praise at US riders doing well abroad (think J. Page
and the other cross boys in Europe) and claims that we shouldn't be
talking about them unless they win some races, then George wins a
fairly big race, and he still says this isn't good enough. So which
way is it going to be Magilla?? Is it not OK to win a smaller classic
race? Are the so-called "big races" the only ones we should say,
"Hey, great job!". What's your major malfunction Private Pile??

Tom

I think I'm entitled to my opinion. J.Page never 'did well' abroad -
neither did any other US cross rider.

As for Georgio, KBK ain't that big of a deal. If you guys think it is,
that's certainly your prerogative. I don't care.

Magilla