GMTV: Lee v Mayne

Just zis Guy said:

CTC have just told me that in tomorrow's helmet debate on GMTV will be
not the BMA but Angie Lee who will be taking on Kevin!

A widescreen TV is essential then.

John B

In article <[email hidden]>, "Just zis

Guy said:

CTC have just told me that in tomorrow's helmet debate on GMTV will
be not the BMA but Angie Lee who will be taking on Kevin! They
will be on twice, at 6.25 and 7.45am

Will it have a phone-in?

"Sandy Morton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, "Just zis

Guy said:

CTC have just told me that in tomorrow's helmet debate on GMTV will
be not the BMA but Angie Lee who will be taking on Kevin! They
will be on twice, at 6.25 and 7.45am

Will it have a phone-in?

Well you an email GMTV at

http://www.gm.tv/index.cfm?articleid=678

If you want to make your views known.

Cheers, helen s

Transcript:

6.20am

GMTV: Kevin, you are against the compulosry wearing of helmets

KM: Yes, not that we are conciously against helmets, but the jury is
really out on whether cycle helmets make much difference, when we look
at whole countries where cycle helmets have been made compulosry,
cycling levels just collapsed quite seriously, in the UK context that
might take up to 2 million people out of cycling, when we in the
middle of a national obesity crisis and children are not getting out
enough that has a bigger impact than any saving we can have with
cycling helmets.

GMTV: We can just make them more trendy more funky, the point is if
it saves lives it is better to make them compulsory.

KM: I think we can almost regard ourselves as agnostics on this
because very strange things happen at whole country levels - helmets
are just not delivering the results. What we are happy to say is, if
we can sort that out and find out what would make them give us the
results, our position would change entirely. It is an awfully
confusing situtation in terms of the research at the moment and taking
nearly 2 million people out of exercise. It really is putting the
Public Health community against the A & E community in medicine - the
doctors were widely divided yesterday and it was a very narrow
majority at their conference.

GMTV: So Angela perhaps children are more at risk from obesity than
they are from cycling.

AL: I think it is too simplistic to say just cycle and get fit, I am
one who has been trying for years and just get on the bike its an easy
remedy if it was then everyone would do it, I think diet, there is a
whole education programme that has to go with obesity. On cycling
with children, head injuries is one of the biggest risks for them,
they are novice cyclists they take greater risk, they are under a lot
more pressure and obviously their brain is much more vulnerable. So
getting them to wear helmets is important but one of the most
fundamental things is peer pressure, they won't wear them because they
are not cool and they'll take it off. One of the things I found out
which is how I started the charity was having a twelve year old boy
die in my arms and his 14 year old brother then wore a helmet and
within 3 months he took it off because of his peers were making fun
of him, so there is a huge pressure for them and I think a law helps.

GMTV: So perhaps if it was compulsory for children, then perhaps you
would be in favour of it.

KM: No we wouldn't, at this point in time it is the wrong argument,
we could deal with speed, we could deal with road conditions, we could
deal with driver behaviour, we could certainly deliver much much
better cyclists' education and cycle training and all the eveidence is
if we spent and time, money and efforts in those areas it would far
outwegh cyle helmets. Eventually we will get round to it, but it is
far down the list, if you ask any road safety professional it is about
number 20 or 30 on the list of what works.

GMTV: But you are not denying that they save lives, these helmets for
cyclists.

KM: At a national level the figures are not stacking up, its weird, I
wish they did. It seems obvious but if you take your thumb and push it
into a piece of polystrene, that is what's happening and when you are
talking about injuries and accidents that involve cyclists the
proportion that are head injuries and the effec, its only meant to
work at 12 mph, it's a piece of polystryene, if you are hit by a car
if you have a major fall, what you tend to see as the doctors said in
the debate are scalp injuries and scratches and that kind of stuff its
certainly making a difference to dis-figuring injuries but its just
not working and it is a real worry, I wish it did work.

GMTV: Angela they don't really work.

AL: They do work, I have seen the effects of children who are hit by
cars wearing heklmets and the helmet takes the impact, kevin's right
they do take an impact at 12 mph but if you reduce that 12 miles from
a 30 mph crash, you've got a half reduction and that can make the
difference between leading a quality life or somone not survining or
leading a very disabled life.

GMTV: The BMA supported this, now it is up to the government.

7.30am

GMTV: You get on a motorbike, you get on a horse and you have to wear
a helmet, why shouldn't you when you get on a bike on the roads.

KM: Because cycling is a positive contributor to public health, there
is considerable evidence form studies overseas that 2.5 million people
in the UK might give up cycling if helmets became compulsory. If you
take 2.5 million out of taking daily exercise, we are in the middle of
an obesity crisis we have childhood diabetes up, we have children
suffering mental problems becasuse they are couped up all day indoors
and they can't cope with the stress of society.

GMTV: I don't believe people would give up cycling just because they
had to wear one of these, and you see professional cyclists or people
who ride bicycles most of the time, they all wear them.

KM: Professional cyclists, partly they are paid to wear them, we have
to bear that in mind the enthusiasts are not our problem - it's the
casual users, it's the kids and the parents. Funnily enough we don't
understand it either, we are not anti-helmet in fact if that what it
takes for you and kids to be confident then wear the helmet. Where
contries like Australia have introduced compulsory helmets they have
seen those 25% drops, the problem is if we can find out why this is,
and mitigate against it then CTC and all our colleagues would change
our position overnight but we can't accept seeing 2.5 million taken
out of one of the healthiest forms of exercise in this country.

GMTV: Angela, you have the seen the dark side of what can happen when
people don't wear helmets, tell us what prompted you to get on board
this campaign.

AL: It was about 10 years ago working in the trauma wards of Reading
and the number of people coming in with head injuries was devastating,
particularly a 12 year old boy who died in my arms, that was tragic
and you think why is this happening when there is something out there
and we did a lot of work and we found that helmets did a make a
difference because when they were being worn the youngsters coming in
their injuries were serverely less and a lot were surviving and when
Kevin talks about Australia that was going back to 1991, Australia has
moved forward now, their cycling rates are well up and they are one of
the most good (!!!!) cycling nations and other countries have
introduced the law without the problem.

GMTV: So why should people should wear these, Kevin would say this is
just a piece of polystyrene so how is it going to protect you?

AL: Its an impact absorber, yes its made to take impacts up to 13
(sounds very clearly like 30) mph but 13 mph off the head in an impact
of say 26mph reduces it by half and that it what makes the difference
between someone surviving or not.

GMTV: I think you meant 12 mph, so if you are hit at 30mph it takes
12 off which leaves an impact of 18mph.

AL: That's right

GMTV : You are knodding away there, do you agree with any of this, I
can't see what your problem is, they are very funky now, children
love them, if you introduce them at the age of 3 when they first get a
bike it becomes regulation.

KM: Its tucked down there at the bottom of the list, in terms of
punblic helath and public road safety you would put it 20th on your
list, you would deal with speed, you would deal with the skills of the
children, you would deal with the environment which they are in, you
would put more speed cameras in, and when you have stopped accidents
happening I would get round to doing helmets. If you take 3000 deaths
a year and 100 cyclists death, we know speed can have a massive affect
on all of those deaths, it can affect pedestrians and car passengers,
the biggest cause of head injuries in A&E admission is car passengers,
that's the real worry. By all means if it boost's your confidence wear
a helmet, but if compulsion takes people out of the system that is a
real worry for public health.

GMTV: We have had a lot of (text) messges about cycle helmets and
most have said they wear these.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

Just zis Guy said:

Transcript:

Thanks for the transcript.
An example of scientific evidence vs. emotion.
Two totally different ways to argue a case, and never likely to lead to
reconciliation.

- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

At Mon, 4 Jul 2005 18:04:45 +0100, message
<[email hidden]> was posted by "Nigel Cliffe"
<[email hidden]>, including some, all or none of the following:

Quoted message said:

An example of scientific evidence vs. emotion.
Two totally different ways to argue a case, and never likely to lead to
reconciliation.

I thought Angie won on points. I like and respect Kevin, but I think
he needs to listen to the politicians on Today: one or two sentences,
prepared and refined in advance, always repeated for emphasis, and do
not be distracted by questions about anything else.

Especially when you are up against emotive "think of the children"
[censored].

Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

Just zis Guy said:

At Mon, 4 Jul 2005 18:04:45 +0100, message
<[email hidden]> was posted by "Nigel Cliffe"
<[email hidden]>, including some, all or none of the following:

Quoted message said:

An example of scientific evidence vs. emotion.
Two totally different ways to argue a case, and never likely to lead
to reconciliation.

I thought Angie won on points.

Ah, but you saw the programme. I read the transcript.

Much like the Nixon vs Kennedy debate where Nixon won on the radio and
Kennedy won on the TV broadcast of the same event.

Quoted message said:

I like and respect Kevin, but
I think
he needs to listen to the politicians on Today: one or two sentences,
prepared and refined in advance, always repeated for emphasis, and do
not be distracted by questions about anything else.

Agreed. And those need to be worked out to appeal to the target audience
who are "on the fence", "never thought about it" or "wavering just on the
other side". No point preaching to either of the "convinced" camps.

Like the way well run political campaigns hit the issue.

Quoted message said:

Especially when you are up against emotive "think of the children"
[censored].

- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

Just zis Guy said:

At Mon, 4 Jul 2005 18:04:45 +0100, message
<[email hidden]> was posted by "Nigel Cliffe"
<[email hidden]>, including some, all or none of the following:

Quoted message said:

An example of scientific evidence vs. emotion.
Two totally different ways to argue a case, and never likely to lead to
reconciliation.

I thought Angie won on points. I like and respect Kevin, but I think
he needs to listen to the politicians on Today: one or two sentences,
prepared and refined in advance, always repeated for emphasis, and do
not be distracted by questions about anything else.

Especially when you are up against emotive "think of the children"
[censored].

I agree. The CTC should send Kevin on a media training course and work
with someone to refine the message. I can recommend a couple if it helps.

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon

you know? said:

Transcript:

Quoted message said:

AL: They do work, I have seen the effects of children who are hit by cars
wearing heklmets and the helmet takes the impact, kevin's right they do
take an impact at 12 mph but if you reduce that 12 miles from a 30 mph
crash, you've got a half reduction and that can make the difference
between leading a quality life or somone not survining or leading a very
disabled life.

Quoted message said:

AL: Its an impact absorber, yes its made to take impacts up to 13 (sounds
very clearly like 30) mph but 13 mph off the head in an impact of say
26mph reduces it by half and that it what makes the difference between
someone surviving or not.

Quoted message said:

GMTV: I think you meant 12 mph, so if you are hit at 30mph it takes 12 off
which leaves an impact of 18mph.

Quoted message said:

AL: That's right

So what hapenned to the truth here?

--

Buck

I would rather be out on my Catrike

http://www.catrike.co.uk

Buck said:

On 07/04/2005 17:28:45 "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

GMTV: I think you meant 12 mph, so if you are hit at 30mph it
takes 12 off which leaves an impact of 18mph.

Quoted message said:

AL: That's right

So what hapenned to the truth here?

It was a casualty. Kevin should have been ready for this one. As Guy
said, he was not adequately prepared. This was television, not a public
inquiry.

--
Dave...

Buck said:

you know? said:

Transcript:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

GMTV: I think you meant 12 mph, so if you are hit at 30mph it takes 12 off
which leaves an impact of 18mph.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

AL: That's right

Quoted message said:

So what hapenned to the truth here?

The truth comes over loud and clear: Angela Lee may be well meaning but
is basically innumerate and can't be trusted to present figures with any
degree of accuracy (c.f. the sequence of numbers 37, 42, 48, 54, 33, 32,
36, 27, 25, 22, 18 being characterised as each one being over 50).

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Just zis Guy said:

At Mon, 4 Jul 2005 18:04:45 +0100, message
<[email hidden]> was posted by "Nigel Cliffe"
<[email hidden]>, including some, all or none of the following:

Quoted message said:

An example of scientific evidence vs. emotion.
Two totally different ways to argue a case, and never likely to lead
to reconciliation.

I thought Angie won on points. I like and respect Kevin, but I think
he needs to listen to the politicians on Today: one or two sentences,
prepared and refined in advance, always repeated for emphasis, and do
not be distracted by questions about anything else.

Media training basics: Chose whaich 3 points you want to make before any
questions are asked. Make them irrespective of the questions! Repeat them
several times

pk

Peter Clinch said:

The truth comes over loud and clear: Angela Lee may be well
meaning but is basically innumerate and can't be trusted to
present figures with any degree of accuracy (c.f. the sequence
of numbers 37, 42, 48, 54, 33, 32, 36, 27, 25, 22, 18 being
characterised as each one being over 50).

I think it might be closer to the mark to suggest she is sometimes
economical with the numeracy.

--
Dave...

On Mon, 04 Jul 2005 23:42:21 +0100, Tony Raven <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I agree. The CTC should send Kevin on a media training course and work
with someone to refine the message. I can recommend a couple if it helps.

Please do - by email would be good. We [the usual suspects] are
looking into this at present.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

Buck said:

Quoted message said:

GMTV: I think you meant 12 mph, so if you are hit at 30mph it takes 12 off
which leaves an impact of 18mph.
AL: That's right

Quoted message said:

So what hapenned to the truth here?

Angie |<---- unbridgeable chasm ---->| Truth

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 04 Jul 2005 23:42:21 +0100, Tony Raven <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I agree. The CTC should send Kevin on a media training course and work
with someone to refine the message. I can recommend a couple if it helps.

Please do - by email would be good. We [the usual suspects] are
looking into this at present.

Guy

A suggestion... to be ignored or otherwise

Kevin is probably a nice guy - I don't know him, so can't say one way or
another. But may I respectfully suggest that when going up against one or
more women, the "caring" gender... who are pro-compulsion as obviously they
*care about the children*, that perhaps the CTC should be putting up a
woman...that way they can counter the possible impression (to the less
informed) of the CTC being blokes who don't care about the children half as
much as those who can & do come across as 'concerned nurses and mothers' ???

Kevin needs to be able to speak directly, in soundbites, and look directly
at the questioner and not be looking down as this comes across as slightly
shifty, which I am sure he doesn't intend to do. Plus, when Lee spreads the
lies & falsehoods, she should be publicly brought to book. Attack is the
best form of defence and all that.

Cheers, helen s

On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:44:09 +0100, "wafflycat"

waffles*A*T*v21net*D*O*T*co*D*O*T*uk said:

Kevin is probably a nice guy - I don't know him, so can't say one way or
another. But may I respectfully suggest that when going up against one or
more women, the "caring" gender... who are pro-compulsion as obviously they
*care about the children*, that perhaps the CTC should be putting up a
woman...that way they can counter the possible impression (to the less
informed) of the CTC being blokes who don't care about the children half as
much as those who can & do come across as 'concerned nurses and mothers' ???

That is a very interesting idea. I will ask some of the women in the
group - one of whom is a very presentable and highly experienced
campaigner.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

Just zis Guy said:

That is a very interesting idea. I will ask some of the women in the
group - one of whom is a very presentable and highly experienced
campaigner.

And there was me thinking that Helen had just volunteered herself:-)

--
Not me guv

On 07/05/2005 11:39:14 'dkahn400 said:

Buck wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On 07/04/2005 17:28:45 "Just zis Guy, you know?"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

GMTV: I think you meant 12 mph, so if you are hit at 30mph it takes 12
off which leaves an impact of 18mph.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

AL: That's right

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So what hapenned to the truth here?

Quoted message said:

It was a casualty. Kevin should have been ready for this one. As Guy
said, he was not adequately prepared. This was television, not a public
inquiry.

He was well and truly trounced, he needs some coaching, poor guy, I
know what it is like getting put on the spot on T.V.
--

Buck

I would rather be out on my Catrike

http://www.catrike.co.uk