Gluing track tubulars

Bob-<< The FAQ also says that red glue is uncommon. I tried searching the web, but was unsuccessful
at finding a source. Who sells it? >><BR><BR>

We have it but it is NOS and getting scarce so it's ain't cheap-$6 per tube. I know that sounds
outrageous but we got it for Andy Hampsten and he only bought 2 tubes.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

The mounting of tubulars in important for any type of riding/racing.
The glue type is important, but the procedure is as important. See
parktool.comtubular.shtmlOpen ↗

There is a study of glues referenced at that page, see it for rating of different glue types.

Calvin Jones

Bob Shanteau said:

I've read the FAQ regarding gluing on tubulars:

draco.acs.uci.edu8b.28.htmlOpen ↗

It says that red (hard) glue is used with track tubulars. It gives instructions for mounting track
tubulars with shellac, but not for red glue.

Is the procedure for using red glue the same as for regular (pressure sensitive) glue?

Red glue is pressure-sensitive glue. I don't know a particular reason why it is preferable on the
track to the clearish stuff. Shellac is (was?) preferred since it holds the tire more securely, with
less squirm. It is a RPITA to fix a flat, but you take spare wheels.

Quoted message said:

I have used red glue (Clement) only once and that was an unsuccessful attempt about 30 years ago.

I used it all the time when I used tubulars. I preferred it to the white stuff; I think it
held better.

I simply applied the red glue to the rim and

Quoted message said:

mounted a Clement track tire (with an uncoated base tape).

The uncoated base tape is a problem. I made sure to get a good layer on the tire.

Quoted message said:

The FAQ also says that red glue is uncommon. I tried searching the web, but was unsuccessful at
finding a source. Who sells it?

The whole realm of tubular supplies is getting hard to find, but I did get Clement glue some 4-5
years ago from a LBS.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | When you are up to your ass in alligators, it's hard to remember _`\(,_ | that your initial
objective was to drain the swamp. -- LBJ (_)/ (_) |

"Non sum qualis eram." - Horace

Bob Shanteau said:

I've read the FAQ regarding gluing on tubulars:

draco.acs.uci.edu8b.28.htmlOpen ↗

It says that red (hard) glue is used with track tubulars. It gives instructions for mounting track
tubulars with shellac, but not for red glue.

Color alone is not an accurate indicator of an adhesive's track specificity.

The box in photo in the link below shows the Clement cement within to be "per strada", despite the
glue itself having the same red color as the "per pista" formula mentioned in the faq's.
businesscycles.comclement glue.jpgOpen ↗

-------------------------------
John Dacey Business Cycles, Miami, Florida Now in our twenty-first year. Our catalog of track
equipment: eighth year online. businesscycles.combusinesscycles.comOpen ↗

Bob Shanteau said:

I've read the FAQ regarding gluing on tubulars:

draco.acs.uci.edu8b.28.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

It says that red (hard) glue is used with track tubulars. It gives instructions for mounting track
tubulars with shellac, but not for red glue.

I don't think you'll find the word "red" in that FAQ and I think also that your questions are
answered in it. Hard glue is basically shellac and you can use hardware store shellac for that
purpose. The tubes of track glue that I had were clear brown partially dried shellac. That is,
it was shellac that was dried to the point of not being runny so it was more easily applied to
rim and tire.

Quoted message said:

Is the procedure for using red glue the same as for regular (pressure sensitive) glue?
Particularly the part about putting glue on both the tire and rim before mounting?

As the item explains, good track tires have dry cloth base tapes. I haven't seen one of these
offered in a store for many years. These are the tires that need to be mounted with track glue. If
they have rubberized base tapes, forget it, you won't get any benefit from hard glue.

Let me re-emphasize that hard glue has nothing to do with rolling a tire off the rim in use. This is
entirely a rolling resistance effect that is only truly important in events like the kilo or pursuit
races where every second counts.

The myth and lore in FAQ "8b.20 Gluing Sew-up Tires" should be read for entertainment only.

Quoted message said:

I have used red glue (Clement) only once and that was an unsuccessful attempt about 30 years ago.
I simply applied the red glue to the rim and mounted a Clement track tire (with an uncoated base
tape). I vaguely remember noting how fast the red cement was setting up and how little liquid
cement transferred to the tire's base tape. I wanted to read the instructions on the tube, but
they were in Italian.

Get a translator... however you could have asked at the store where you bought the stuff. I think
back then the use was fairly well understood, only the reasons for using it were not.

Quoted message said:

The FAQ also says that red glue is uncommon. I tried searching the web, but was unsuccessful at
finding a source. Who sells it?

It is interesting that Google cannot find any source worldwide. Maybe the tubular tire has truly
vanished. I am amazed how long it has stayed. the only thing a 110 gram silk Clement Tipo 00 tire
had was light weight. Rolling resistance being practically invisible in most events.

Get some good Avocet Criterium SL slicks and be done with it.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

[email hidden] (Calvin Jones) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

The mounting of tubulars in important for any type of riding/racing. The glue type is important,
but the procedure is as important. See parktool.comtubular.shtmlOpen ↗

There is a study of glues referenced at that page, see it for rating of different glue types.

You can also look at the instructions on the Bicycle FAQ here:

Gluing sewup tires: faqs.orgsection 17.htmlOpen ↗

another way to glue sewup tires: faqs.orgsection 18.htmlOpen ↗

tubular tire repair: faqs.orgsection 16.htmlOpen ↗

tubular fables: faqs.orgsection 15.htmlOpen ↗

"Per varios praeceps casus rota volvitur aevi." - Titus Caius Silius
Italicus
On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 20:32:46 GMT, [email hidden]
wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Let me re-emphasize that hard glue has nothing to do with rolling a tire off the rim in use. This
is entirely a rolling resistance effect that is only truly important in events like the kilo or
pursuit races where every second counts.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The FAQ also says that red glue is uncommon. I tried searching the web, but was unsuccessful at
finding a source. Who sells it?

It is interesting that Google cannot find any source worldwide.

I still have a small quantity of D'Allessandro "Lacca Per Pista" in stock. The tubes are small, more
expensive than road gIue, and I have no idea of the year in which they were packaged. I took the
listing off my website a couple of years ago after selling about five tubes of it in as many years.
Had I thought that I'd have a Google "exclusive", I'll have to consider restoring it to the menu.
businesscycles.comlacca per pista.jpgOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Maybe the tubular tire has truly vanished. I am amazed how long it has stayed. the only thing a
110 gram silk Clement Tipo 00 tire had was light weight. Rolling resistance being practically
invisible in most events.

Get some good Avocet Criterium SL slicks and be done with it.

For championship track racing in events against the clock, track tubulars are commonly inflated to
pressures beyond what your clinchers (or the rims on which they're mounted) can be confidently run.
-------------------------------
John Dacey Business Cycles, Miami, Florida Now in our twenty-first year. Our catalog of track
equipment: eighth year online. businesscycles.combusinesscycles.comOpen ↗

"David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Bob Shanteau said:

I've read the FAQ regarding gluing on tubulars:

draco.acs.uci.edu8b.28.htmlOpen ↗

It says that red (hard) glue is used with track tubulars. It gives instructions for mounting
track tubulars with shellac, but not for red glue.

Is the procedure for using red glue the same as for regular (pressure sensitive) glue?

Red glue is pressure-sensitive glue. I don't know a particular reason why it is preferable on the
track to the clearish stuff. Shellac is (was?) preferred since it holds the tire more securely,
with less squirm. It is a RPITA to fix a flat, but you take spare wheels.

Personally I prefer the clear glue. I use 3m fast tack. I believe Vittoria is clear. The nice thing
about clear glue is that it is easy to clean and holds well. With clear glue you can add more glue
if you feel you need to. The red glues like clemente or tubasti is a real pain. You have to clean
the each time you glue a tire on.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have used red glue (Clement) only once and that was an unsuccessful attempt about 30
years ago.

I used it all the time when I used tubulars. I preferred it to the white stuff; I think it
held better.

I simply applied the red glue to the rim and

Quoted message said:

mounted a Clement track tire (with an uncoated base tape).

The uncoated base tape is a problem. I made sure to get a good layer on the tire.

Quoted message said:

The FAQ also says that red glue is uncommon. I tried searching the web, but was unsuccessful at
finding a source. Who sells it?

The whole realm of tubular supplies is getting hard to find, but I did get Clement glue some 4-5
years ago from a LBS.

John Dacey said:

For championship track racing in events against the clock, track tubulars are commonly inflated
to pressures beyond what your clinchers (or the rims on which they're mounted) can be
confidently run.

Yes but does it make any difference other than endanger the rider? As I said, rolling resistance of
thin silk track tires is below what most test stands can measure, or care about. Pressures over
110psi are gratuitous excesses. Just because people do that doesn't mean there is much sense top it.

I recall tire blowouts in the Frankfurt Six-Day indoor track that were like listening to M-80
firecrackers at close range when heard from the gallery.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Shellac is still readily available. You mix it thick, way thicker than the 3 lb cut one finds in
hardware stores and is typically used for finishing wood. The traditional track glue.

Jobst-<< but they

Quoted message said:

were in Italian.

Get a translator >><BR><BR> << It is interesting that Google cannot find any source worldwide. Maybe
the tubular tire has truly vanished. I am amazed how long it has stayed.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Maybe ya need a new search thingy..Tubies are plentiful, red glue is not hard to find. Maybe a trip
to a decent LBS in your area would suffice, instead of wandering around the internet(if it's on the
internet, it must be true!!)..

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

[email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

John Dacey said:

For championship track racing in events against the clock, track tubulars are commonly inflated
to pressures beyond what your clinchers (or the rims on which they're mounted) can be
confidently run.

Yes but does it make any difference other than endanger the rider? As I said, rolling resistance
of thin silk track tires is below what most test stands can measure, or care about. Pressures
over 110psi are gratuitous excesses. Just because people do that doesn't mean there is much
sense top it.

I recall tire blowouts in the Frankfurt Six-Day indoor track that were like listening to M-80
firecrackers at close range when heard from the gallery.

Jobst Brandt

Clinchers are ofter pinch flat (under the side load of the banking), and more dangerous to ride if
they do go flat.

In addition, track tubulars are significantly lighter (I have some 125g Tufos) most high end carbon
track wheels only come in tubular only.

Joey D'Antoni (uses Fastack)

Quoted message said:

[email hidden]

Joey D'Antoni said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

For championship track racing in events against the clock, track tubulars are commonly inflated
to pressures beyond what your clinchers (or the rims on which they're mounted) can be
confidently run.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yes but does it make any difference other than endanger the rider? As I said, rolling resistance
of thin silk track tires is below what most test stands can measure, or care about. Pressures
over 110psi are gratuitous excesses. Just because people do that doesn't mean there is much sense
top it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I recall tire blowouts in the Frankfurt Six-Day indoor track that were like listening to M-80
firecrackers at close range when heard from the gallery.

Quoted message said:

Clinchers are often pinch flat (under the side load of the banking), and more dangerous to ride if
they do go flat.

If you believe that, you'll believe almost anything. Pinch flats on a track! I've been around this
stuff for a long time and never even heard of a snake bite on a track. Besides, a flat on the track
means you take a dive regardless of tire type, that is, if you weren't standing still. A flat on
the banking is like a bird shot in flight. The bike and rider make it to the infield ungracefully
in a hurry.

Quoted message said:

In addition, track tubulars are significantly lighter (I have some 125g Tufos) most high end
carbon track wheels only come in tubular only.

As I said, they used to be even lighter at 110 grams for Tipo 00 Clement silks. So what.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

[email hidden] wrote in message news:<U6ZKb.7248

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Clinchers are often pinch flat (under the side load of the banking), and more dangerous to ride
if they do go flat.

If you believe that, you'll believe almost anything. Pinch flats on a track! I've been around this
stuff for a long time and never even heard of a snake bite on a track.

Really--I've seen several. Granted they were poorer quality clinchers that couldn't be pumped up the
130 or so needed to support them on a steep track, but I've seen it happen.

Besides, a flat on the track means

Quoted message said:

you take a dive regardless of tire type, that is, if you weren't standing still. A flat on the
banking is like a bird shot in flight. The bike and rider make it to the infield ungracefully in
a hurry.

This is utter [censored]. I've been racing the track for 10 years and seen multitudes of flat tires (99%
tubulars though) and the vast majority of those riders didn't crash. Actually one time at San Diego,
Shaun Wallace was coming in for me to give him a madison exchange--he flatted, swung uptrack, and
caught the rail.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In addition, track tubulars are significantly lighter (I have some 125g Tufos) most high end
carbon track wheels only come in tubular only.

As I said, they used to be even lighter at 110 grams for Tipo 00 Clement silks. So what.

You can get 100g tires if you really care. They have a lower moment of intertia, so they get off the
line a hair quicker. In theory, they have less rubber to squirm and therefore less rolling
resistance...

Jobst, I invite you to come hang out a couple of high level track meetings if you want to call me on
this evidence...

Joey D'Antoni

(Joey D'Antoni) said:

[email hidden] wrote in message news:<U6ZKb.7248

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Clinchers are often pinch flat (under the side load of the banking), and more dangerous to ride
if they do go flat.

If you believe that, you'll believe almost anything. Pinch flats on a track! I've been around
this stuff for a long time and never even heard of a snake bite on a track.

Really--I've seen several. Granted they were poorer quality clinchers that couldn't be pumped up
the 130 or so needed to support them on a steep track, but I've seen it happen.

Oh [censored]. In all my track racing- on a wood track with 43 degree banks in the turns- the
only flat I've ever seen happen was a tubular that blew out the sidewall. What you are
describing is malarkey.

I've *never* seen a pinch flat on the track; you certainly would *not* get one from riding on the
banking- what in heaven's name do you think is the mechanism of a pinch flat, anyway? It takes an
impact with a sharp edge like a pothole to cause a pinch flat; other than Kissena, few tracks
have potholes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Besides, a flat on the track means you take a dive regardless of tire type, that is, if you
weren't standing still. A flat on the banking is like a bird shot in flight. The bike and rider
make it to the infield ungracefully in a hurry.

This is utter [censored]. I've been racing the track for 10 years and seen multitudes of flat tires (99%
tubulars though) and the vast majority of those riders didn't crash. Actually one time at San
Diego, Shaun Wallace was coming in for me to give him a madison exchange--he flatted, swung
uptrack, and caught the rail.

You flat a tire on a steep track, you're going down the banking into the infield. Seen it happen in
person, seen it happen on TV. If you've raced track for 10 years, it's a nearly flat one.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In addition, track tubulars are significantly lighter (I have some 125g Tufos) most high end
carbon track wheels only come in tubular only.

As I said, they used to be even lighter at 110 grams for Tipo 00 Clement silks. So what.

You can get 100g tires if you really care. They have a lower moment of intertia, so they get off
the line a hair quicker. In theory, they have less rubber to squirm and therefore less rolling
resistance...

Not enough to make anything but a psychological difference.

Quoted message said:

Jobst, I invite you to come hang out a couple of high level track meetings if you want to call me
on this evidence...

You act as if you are the first initiate into the rarified air of track racing.

(Joey D'Antoni) said:

Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Oh [censored]. In all my track racing- on a wood track with 43 degree banks in the turns- the only
flat I've ever seen happen was a tubular that blew out the sidewall. What you are describing is
malarkey.

I've *never* seen a pinch flat on the track; you certainly would *not* get one from riding on the
banking- what in heaven's name do you think is the mechanism of a pinch flat, anyway? It takes an
impact with a sharp edge like a pothole to cause a pinch flat; other than Kissena, few tracks
have potholes.

Okay I've never seen it happen at Blaine, but I have seen it happen in Dallas (45), Baton Rouge
(33) and Houston (33). The wheels compress under load, and yes at most of the tracks in the US
(Blaine being the exception rather than the rule there are places to impact)

"The wheels compress under load?" I hope you mean "tires" rather than wheels, since the wheels do
not compress in any significant way for the purposes of this discussion. The tires compress under
load, whether on a flat surface or a banked surface. Cornering at a 43 degree angle is the same as
being vertical on a 43 degree banked track, as far as the tire is concerned, and there aren't a rash
of pinch flatting clinchers in turns on crits and road races.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Besides, a flat on the track means you take a dive regardless of tire type, that is, if you
> weren't standing still. A flat on the banking is like a bird shot in flight. The bike and
> rider make it to the infield ungracefully in a hurry.

This is utter [censored]. I've been racing the track for 10 years and seen multitudes of flat tires
(99% tubulars though) and the vast majority of those riders didn't crash. Actually one time at
San Diego, Shaun Wallace was coming in for me to give him a madison exchange--he flatted, swung
uptrack, and caught the rail.

You flat a tire on a steep track, you're going down the banking into the infield. Seen it happen
in person, seen it happen on TV. If you've raced track for 10 years, it's a nearly flat one.

Infield yes, crashing no. People flat occasionally events et al, the general course of action is
to try to slow down to a reasonable speed on the banking (something you can't do with a clincher)
a go off the track when slowed enough.

The only flat I've seen happen on the track, as I mentioned, was a tubular blowout. The rider
instantly lost control, managed to point the bike downtrack to the infield, and promptly did a head
auger when he got to the grass at about 30 mph. So much for slowing down to a reasonable speed. A
flat is a flat is a flat.

Quoted message said:

FWIW, I've raced on every track in the US, and have raced in a few National Championships.

That unfortunately doesn't mean that you understand the physics of how tires and wheels operate, nor
how they interact with the riding surface.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You act as if you are the first initiate into the rarified air of track racing.

No I'm just trying to post from the perspective of somebody who actually races the track, instead
of just theorizes about it...

You make many assumptions about others, grasshopper.

Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Oh [censored]. In all my track racing- on a wood track with 43 degree banks in the turns- the only
flat I've ever seen happen was a tubular that blew out the sidewall. What you are describing is
malarkey.

I've *never* seen a pinch flat on the track; you certainly would *not* get one from riding on the
banking- what in heaven's name do you think is the mechanism of a pinch flat, anyway? It takes an
impact with a sharp edge like a pothole to cause a pinch flat; other than Kissena, few tracks have
potholes.

Okay I've never seen it happen at Blaine, but I have seen it happen in Dallas (45), Baton Rouge (33)
and Houston (33). The wheels compress under load, and yes at most of the tracks in the US (Blaine
being the exception rather than the rule there are places to impact)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Besides, a flat on the track means you take a dive regardless of tire type, that is, if you
weren't standing still. A flat on the banking is like a bird shot in flight. The bike and rider
make it to the infield ungracefully in a hurry.

This is utter [censored]. I've been racing the track for 10 years and seen multitudes of flat tires
(99% tubulars though) and the vast majority of those riders didn't crash. Actually one time at
San Diego, Shaun Wallace was coming in for me to give him a madison exchange--he flatted, swung
uptrack, and caught the rail.

You flat a tire on a steep track, you're going down the banking into the infield. Seen it happen
in person, seen it happen on TV. If you've raced track for 10 years, it's a nearly flat one.

Infield yes, crashing no. People flat occasionally events et al, the general course of action is to
try to slow down to a reasonable speed on the banking (something you can't do with a clincher) a go
off the track when slowed enough. FWIW, I've raced on every track in the US, and have raced in a few
National Championships.

Quoted message said:

You act as if you are the first initiate into the rarified air of track racing.

No I'm just trying to post from the perspective of somebody who actually races the track, instead of
just theorizes about it...

Joey D'Antoni said:

No I'm just trying to post from the perspective of somebody who actually races the track, instead
of just theorizes about it...

By such statements, you put yourself in a peculiar position. It's like the people who believe Greg
Lemond knows more about bicycle frames than the people who built the bicycles on which he was
successful, because the frame builder never won the TdF. Similarly, I've been asked "who knows
more about bicycle wheels, me who has built more than a thousand wheels or some college guy who
writes a book?"

I've seen plenty of track racing as well as tire and other failures. Light weight track tubulars are
just so much Xerox paper between the rim and the track when flat. You've got to be going slowly to
not take a dive. Even riders who were stalling in a match sprint, doing track stands, have fallen
when a front tire blew out.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

By such statements, you put yourself in a peculiar position. It's like the people who believe Greg
Lemond knows more about bicycle frames than the people who built the bicycles on which he was
successful, because the frame builder never won the TdF. Similarly, I've been asked "who knows
more about bicycle wheels, me who has built more than a thousand wheels or some college guy who
writes a book?" Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

I too find it very hard to believe you could pinch-flat a tire on a smooth surface. It basically, by
definition, cannot even BE a pinch flat. How could you compress the tire far enough to contact the
rim edge without a fairly severe bump?? It's far more likely to be a cut as a result of an
improperly installed tube. And as far as racers' mechanical skill, trying not to paint all of them
with the same brush, their mechanical ability is generally below that of an average mechanic.
Obviously there are exceptions and maybe lots of them, but any of the racers I've worked for
generally had difficulty doing routine mechanical tasks correctly and efficiently.

Cheers,

Scott..