Ginseng

ric_stern/RST said:

It's not an argument, it's a discussion. It's what online forums are about.

Anecdote doesn't really do it for me.

Ric

well anecdote does do it for me. i don't givea why they work for me but they do. genuine effect or just a placebo effect? doesn't matter to me. i've have noticed a big difference with rhodiola rosea. that enough for me. i'll carry on using it thanks.

alex.

ric_stern/RST said:

If at some point the topic turned 'sour' (e.g., someone became rude), then i could close the thread as a moderator/community leader.
Ric

you've both been rude to each other, so maybe you should close the thread. you're right about not using the herbs- sounds like you're not old enough for it to be safe.

alex.

ric_stern/RST said:

it's lactate, not lactic acid, but nonetheless, this is the *opposite* of what you would want to happen. That is lactate is a fuel, which increases as intensity increases, without it you'd fatigue quicker
ric

lactate and lactic acid are two terms for the same substance so EITHER one can be used. lactic acid can provide a fuel source for exercise but only when the INTENSITY DROPS SUFFICIENTLY. lactic acid is produced in the muscles as a result of anaerobic respiration- glucose or glycogen is broken down to form ATP but without the prescence of oxygen lactic acid is produced also. eventually a build up of lactic acid in the muscles leads to fatigue and prevents further muscle contractions as the body is unable to remove the lactic acid at a rate quicker than at which it is produced. this serves as a safety mechanism to stop muscle contraction at too high an intensity for too long which would cause muscle destruction. lactic acid is the primary cause of fatigue for high intensity exercise lasting between 30 seconds and 30 minutes (PC depletion being the reason for very high intensity, explosive exercise and depeltion of glycogen for lower intensity exercise lasting a loger period of time). it can only be used as a fuel source when the intensity drops or when the exercise stops so that the excess lactic acid can be dealt with. the lactic acid has three fates. firstly, it can be converted into pyruvic acid, which can then be broken down in to ATP in the prescence of oxygen (repaying the oxygen debt). additionally, it can be transported to the liver (lactic acid shuttling) where it can either be converted into glucose for use in the blood stream or converted into liver glycogen.
just thought i'd put you straight on that. 😉

alex.

ratboy83 said:

lactate and lactic acid are two terms for the same substance so EITHER one can be used. lactic acid can provide a fuel source for exercise but only when the INTENSITY DROPS SUFFICIENTLY. lactic acid is produced in the muscles as a result of anaerobic respiration- glucose or glycogen is broken down to form ATP but without the prescence of oxygen lactic acid is produced also. eventually a build up of lactic acid in the muscles leads to fatigue and prevents further muscle contractions as the body is unable to remove the lactic acid at a rate quicker than at which it is produced. this serves as a safety mechanism to stop muscle contraction at too high an intensity for too long which would cause muscle destruction. lactic acid is the primary cause of fatigue for high intensity exercise lasting between 30 seconds and 30 minutes (PC depletion being the reason for very high intensity, explosive exercise and depeltion of glycogen for lower intensity exercise lasting a loger period of time). it can only be used as a fuel source when the intensity drops or when the exercise stops so that the excess lactic acid can be dealt with. the lactic acid has three fates. firstly, it can be converted into pyruvic acid, which can then be broken down in to ATP in the prescence of oxygen (repaying the oxygen debt). additionally, it can be transported to the liver (lactic acid shuttling) where it can either be converted into glucose for use in the blood stream or converted into liver glycogen.
just thought i'd put you straight on that. 😉

alex.

'fraid not, you'll have to try again.

anyway, don't have time to go through it now for you (as i'm about to move house) but if you want to know that you're wrong you can always post this in the training forum. There, it's highly likely to be seen by Dr Andrew Coggan, who is a leading exercise physiologist.

And besides, lactate is always present in your blood (not just at high intensity), i.e., at rest (unless you have McArdles Disease).

Ric

This thread is intensely depressing stuff. The '[censored] for tat' thing is not nice, definitely not helpful in any way either.

I am going to order up some of Rhodiola Rosea and draw my own conclusions. Anecdotal evidence might not be reliable, then again complete reliance on other people's theoretical work, might not be reliable either. So I will reach my own decision.

By the grace of God, perhaps once I have reached my own conclusion, I will be minded not to try and force that opinion on other people, tirelessly and against their will.

KellyT said:

This thread is intensely depressing stuff. The '[censored] for tat' thing is not nice, definitely not helpful in any way either.

I am going to order up some of Rhodiola Rosea and draw my own conclusions. Anecdotal evidence might not be reliable, then again complete reliance on other people's theoretical work, might not be reliable either. So I will reach my own decision.

By the grace of God, perhaps once I have reached my own conclusion, I will be minded not to try and force that opinion on other people, tirelessly and against their will.

So how do you define "trying to help"?

Ric and I don't mind each other. We're used to the way it is in scientific conferences and circles, I'm sure. We challenge each other and debate. It's usually fun, challenging and interesting. You folks have to lighten up.

Remember that research results are distributed along a bell curve. Outliers exist where the majority of persons do not respond, and that does not rule out that YOU may respond to the actions of a drug or herb. When drug companies say that "side effects are rare", that really means that some people will experience them. Why is that? The reverse is true for drugs and herbs where most people do not experience an effect: SOME DO.

Ginseng clearly works, and so does rhodiola. Good luck. I have a bronchiectasis patient who uses ginseng and the effects aren't placebo. This guy is a total skeptic. His M.D. supports his use of it. Chiropractic works for asthma, too. The studies do not yet exist for most of the good effects of foods, herbals and botanical medicines, yet my M.D. patients all seem to be getting off their little pills. Hmmm...

CapeRoadster said:

So how do you define "trying to help"?

Tricky. Obviously you have to state a view and be prepared to defend it, if you want to participate. It's when it begins to become repetitive and self perpetuating, that the helping part has left the 'field of play', and it's something else after that. Something unattractive and unhelpful.

As for Ginseng I have only used it a little and not enough to form a clear opnion of how I feel it has worked. I have used Gingko Biloba to try to battle (horrendous) bouts of tinitus, and frankly it definitely has a positive effect. I shouldn't wonder that a double blinded lab test would quite possibly show Gingko as not doing anything. Hence I would rather form my own views.

I look forward to my Rhodiola arriving and if it is as useful in it's way as Gingko is, then it will have been a well worthwhile effort.

ric_stern/RST said:

'fraid not, you'll have to try again.

anyway, don't have time to go through it now for you (as i'm about to move house) but if you want to know that you're wrong you can always post this in the training forum. There, it's highly likely to be seen by Dr Andrew Coggan, who is a leading exercise physiologist.

And besides, lactate is always present in your blood (not just at high intensity), i.e., at rest (unless you have McArdles Disease).

Ric

i didn't make that stuff up dude. i learnt it from a book called "The Complete Guide To Sports Nutrition" by Anita Bean, a well respected figure in her field, so i guess she'll have to try again when the next edition of the book comes out. i'll put it again on the training forum. i'm intrigued by the fact that two experts can have such differeing views over such an issue if you say that what i've written will be corrected by Dr Coggan. 😕 laters dude. :p

alex.

KellyT said:

Tricky. Obviously you have to state a view and be prepared to defend it, if you want to participate. It's when it begins to become repetitive and self perpetuating, that the helping part has left the 'field of play', and it's something else after that. Something unattractive and unhelpful.

As for Ginseng I have only used it a little and not enough to form a clear opnion of how I feel it has worked. I have used Gingko Biloba to try to battle (horrendous) bouts of tinitus, and frankly it definitely has a positive effect. I shouldn't wonder that a double blinded lab test would quite possibly show Gingko as not doing anything. Hence I would rather form my own views.

I look forward to my Rhodiola arriving and if it is as useful in it's way as Gingko is, then it will have been a well worthwhile effort.

Gingko biloba is clearly dangerous for those taking blood thinners like Coumadin and Warfarin, as it attenuates the effects of those drugs. Therefore, it must be a blood thinner. It works for both tinnitus and memory loss that is a result of circulatory problems. It's also used to prevent altitude sickness. It works well. There was a study that showed it didn't work for memory loss, but the research subjects did not all have memory loss related to a circulatory problem. The study was DESIGNED to fail. Think the makers of Rx blood thinners had anything to do with that? Hope that helps.

Lactate and lactic acid are not quite the same thing.

CapeRoadster said:

Lactate and lactic acid are not quite the same thing.

please can you explain. i'm very interested in this area (i'm in my first year at uni doing a sports science and nutrition degree but the exrecise physiology module isn't til next semester) but the book i got the info from makes no distinction between lactate and lactic acid and treats them as the same :o . if there is a difference then thats well annoying considering that its a course text for next semester i bought in advance :eek: !!! any info would be greatly appreciated. 😄

alex.