Ghost Bikes

Sam Salt said:

This made interesting reading.

http://166.70.46.216/2004/Jun/06112004/nation_w/174465.asp

Sam Salt

This is the web site

http://www.ghostbike.org/

Sam Salt

Sam Salt said:

This made interesting reading.

http://166.70.46.216/2004/Jun/06112004/nation_w/174465.asp

Sam Salt

Sorry No.

The main message most people would take from GhostBike is that cycling is a
very dangerous activity that will get you killed and that cyclists should be
protected from cars by providing separated routes so that any sane person
would avoid cycling on roads.

Yes, cars do end up killing some cyclists, they kill a lot of pedestrians
and motor vehicle occupants as well, they are noisy and polluting and
obesity producing, they make our cities unpleasant and give our kids
respiratory disease.

I ride to work, with motor traffic and am not frightened. To be honest I
find it quite invigorating. I do not want to be viewed as a nutter or a
victim. I do not want to be forced into protective measures. If some idiot
hits me I want him prosecuted for his bad driving, not let off because I
shouldn't of put myself in danger.

--
Andy Morris

AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK

Love this:
Put an end to Outlook Express's messy quotes
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On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 00:03:25 +0100, "AndyMorris"
<[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):

Quoted message said:

Sam Salt said:

This made interesting reading.

http://166.70.46.216/2004/Jun/06112004/nation_w/174465.asp

Sam Salt

Sorry No.

The main message most people would take from GhostBike is that cycling is a
very dangerous activity that will get you killed and that cyclists should be
protected from cars by providing separated routes so that any sane person
would avoid cycling on roads.

Yes, cars do end up killing some cyclists, they kill a lot of pedestrians
and motor vehicle occupants as well, they are noisy and polluting and
obesity producing, they make our cities unpleasant and give our kids
respiratory disease.

I ride to work, with motor traffic and am not frightened. To be honest I
find it quite invigorating. I do not want to be viewed as a nutter or a
victim. I do not want to be forced into protective measures. If some idiot
hits me I want him prosecuted for his bad driving, not let off because I
shouldn't of put myself in danger.

Then again, I'd still like motor vehicle drivers to take more care
around me than many of them currently do.

--
Cheers,
Euan
Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

Gawnsoft said:

Then again, I'd still like motor vehicle drivers to take more care
around me than many of them currently do.

Of course, I'm just fed up of people assuming that I'm taking an almost
irresposable risk in cycling on the road.

--
Andy Morris

AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK

Love this:
Put an end to Outlook Express's messy quotes
http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/

AndyMorris said:

Sam Salt said:

This made interesting reading.

http://166.70.46.216/2004/Jun/06112004/nation_w/174465.asp

Sam Salt

Sorry No.

The main message most people would take from GhostBike is that cycling is a
very dangerous activity that will get you killed and that cyclists should be
protected from cars by providing separated routes so that any sane person
would avoid cycling on roads.

Yes, cars do end up killing some cyclists, they kill a lot of pedestrians
and motor vehicle occupants as well, they are noisy and polluting and
obesity producing, they make our cities unpleasant and give our kids
respiratory disease.

I ride to work, with motor traffic and am not frightened. To be honest I
find it quite invigorating. I do not want to be viewed as a nutter or a
victim. I do not want to be forced into protective measures. If some idiot
hits me I want him prosecuted for his bad driving, not let off because I
shouldn't of put myself in danger.

I agree with Andy. While I feel that motorists should be made aware of
the fact that cyclists are using the roads, I don't think it should be
achieved at the expense of making cycling look like a dangerous
activity. The best way to improve conditions for on-road cyclists is to
encourage more people to do it. With increased numbers we automatically
achieve increased awareness.

Terry Duckmanton.

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 18:17:19 +0100, Terry D
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<r1Hzc.128$D4.0@newsfe6-win>:

Quoted message said:

I agree with Andy. While I feel that motorists should be made aware of
the fact that cyclists are using the roads, I don't think it should be
achieved at the expense of making cycling look like a dangerous
activity.

Especially since it isn't. Looking at the figures, most of the
injuries and fatalities are not the result of cycling, they are the
result of driving (badly). OK, the injured and killed are often
cyclists and pedestrians, but why blame the victims?

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

In news:[email hidden],
Just zis Guy, you know? <[email hidden]> typed:

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 18:17:19 +0100, Terry D
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<r1Hzc.128$D4.0@newsfe6-win>:

Quoted message said:

I agree with Andy. While I feel that motorists should be made aware
of the fact that cyclists are using the roads, I don't think it
should be achieved at the expense of making cycling look like a
dangerous activity.

Especially since it isn't. Looking at the figures, most of the
injuries and fatalities are not the result of cycling, they are the
result of driving (badly). OK, the injured and killed are often
cyclists and pedestrians, but why blame the victims?

There's also the point that even using the other meaning of dangerous, it's
not particularly dangerous.

A

Ambrose Nankivell said:

In news:[email hidden],
Just zis Guy, you know? <[email hidden]> typed:

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 18:17:19 +0100, Terry D
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<r1Hzc.128$D4.0@newsfe6-win>:

Quoted message said:

I agree with Andy. While I feel that motorists should be made aware
of the fact that cyclists are using the roads, I don't think it
should be achieved at the expense of making cycling look like a
dangerous activity.

Especially since it isn't. Looking at the figures, most of the
injuries and fatalities are not the result of cycling, they are the
result of driving (badly). OK, the injured and killed are often
cyclists and pedestrians, but why blame the victims?

There's also the point that even using the other meaning of dangerous, it's
not particularly dangerous.

A

OK, so some of us at least are in agreement that ghost bikes and similar
scare tactics aren't the way ahead. The problem remains, how does a
relatively small group of dedicated cyclists get through to a very large
group of dedicated un-cyclists with a message that they really don't
want to hear?

I have considered writing to the BBC and asking for a cycling equivalent
of 'Top Gear' [1], but even that would fail because only those who are
already interested in cycling would want to watch such a programme. How
does one persuade those in control of motoring programmes to include
pedal cycles in their programmes so that the drivers of motor vehicles
see pedal cycles as a valid form of transport rather than something that
nutters do just to slow down motorists?

Terry Duckmanton.

[1] I have a letter half written, but I am having trouble hitting the
right tone.

Terry D said:

I have considered writing to the BBC and asking for a cycling
equivalent of 'Top Gear' [1], but even that would fail because only
those who are already interested in cycling would want to watch such
a programme. How does one persuade those in control of motoring
programmes to include pedal cycles in their programmes so that the
drivers of motor vehicles see pedal cycles as a valid form of
transport rather than something that nutters do just to slow down
motorists?

I don't think Top Gear is anything to do with transportation, its all to do
with indulging fantasies (celeb in a boring car) and exploring self image
thru car choice (the cool wall).

--
Andy Morris

AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK

Love this:
Put an end to Outlook Express's messy quotes
http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/

Terry D said:

OK, so some of us at least are in agreement that ghost bikes and
similar scare tactics aren't the way ahead. The problem remains, how
does a relatively small group of dedicated cyclists get through to a
very large group of dedicated un-cyclists with a message that they
really don't want to hear?

A programme of shooting and burning of bodies?

The answer, of course, is to make noise. Challenge false perceptions
wherever you see them. Write to the papers and the Beeb (especially BBCi).
And get out there and be seen. It's the only way I can think of, anyway.

--
Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

in message <7y4Ac.54$A3.10@newsfe4-gui>, Terry D

(') said:

I have considered writing to the BBC and asking for a cycling
equivalent of 'Top Gear' [1], but even that would fail because only
those who are already interested in cycling would want to watch such a
programme. How does one persuade those in control of motoring
programmes to include pedal cycles in their programmes so that the
drivers of motor vehicles see pedal cycles as a valid form of
transport rather than something that nutters do just to slow down
motorists?

The _last_ thing we want is either a cycling equivalent of Top Gear or
bikes on Top Gear. A load of time-expired Peter Pan wannabes with
overdeveloped egos and their senses of humour and of responsibility
surgically removed prancing round in ever-decreasing circles of self
promotion and self congratulation... The reason that Clarkson is that
funny shape is that he's already been so far up his own [censored] that he's
come out the top again. Twice.

By contrast, the programmes BBC Scotland did on the MTB world cup at
Fort William was well presented and interesting. Pester the Beeb for a
DVD or a video - make the aware how much interest there is (and mention
the TdF in the same letter, and say something about 'utility cycling'
to.

Come to think of it, I bet Peter Eland (Velovision) could put together a
good and interesting TV series.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; may contain traces of nuts, bolts or washers.

Simon Brooke said:

The _last_ thing we want is either a cycling equivalent of Top Gear or
bikes on Top Gear.

Think Jeremy Clarkson meets MBUK <shudder>

--
Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

"AndyMorris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Terry D said:

I have considered writing to the BBC and asking for a cycling
equivalent of 'Top Gear' [1], but even that would fail because only
those who are already interested in cycling would want to watch such
a programme. How does one persuade those in control of motoring
programmes to include pedal cycles in their programmes so that the
drivers of motor vehicles see pedal cycles as a valid form of
transport rather than something that nutters do just to slow down
motorists?

I don't think Top Gear is anything to do with transportation, its all to

do

Quoted message said:

with indulging fantasies (celeb in a boring car) and exploring self image
thru car choice (the cool wall).

I agree that Top Gear isn't about transportation, but it is a hugely
influential programme which is capable of persuading large numbers of
viewers to believe that 'abc' is good and 'xyz' is bad. Simple little
statements like "Ooh, but it's a Rover so it won't work" if repeated often
enough could be enough to bring about the failure of the Rover company. A
similar attitude towards pedal cycles will convince viewers that such
machines do not belong on the road, at all, ever. We do not need this kind
of press.

Perhaps we should seek the help of presenter James May who is a cyclist
himself. He appears not to be keen on lycra, prefering to ride around in a
suit, but it would be a start.

Hows about taking the celebs out of the boring car and putting them on a
reasonably priced Dawes (keep the british workers happy) instead? 8-)

Terry Duckmanton

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:05:05 GMT, Simon Brooke <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Come to think of it, I bet Peter Eland (Velovision) could put together a
good and interesting TV series.

He could certainly contribute some interesting stuff to one. What would be
nice is a magazine format. Some stuff on utility cycling, perhaps a tour
review (a la C+), some of Pete's areticles on the use of bicycles around
the world and their use in the UK for businesses, some of the alternatives
(bents, handcycles, etc.) and, god forbid, a brief mention of sport.

Anyone know an influential TV producer?

Colin

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:05:05 GMT, Simon Brooke <[email hidden]>
wrote (more or less):

Quoted message said:

The reason that Clarkson is that
funny shape is that he's already been so far up his own [censored] that he's
come out the top again. Twice.

Thanks for my afternoon laugh aloud.

--
Cheers,
Euan
Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

Terry D said:

I have considered writing to the BBC and asking for a cycling
equivalent of 'Top Gear' [1], but even that would fail because only
those who are already interested in cycling would want to watch such a
programme. How does one persuade those in control of motoring
programmes to include pedal cycles in their programmes so that the
drivers of motor vehicles see pedal cycles as a valid form of
transport rather than something that nutters do just to slow down
motorists?

One doesn't. As said elsewhere in this thread, Top Gear is not about
transportation, it's about aspirational fantasy, neat toys, and
promoting "petrolhead" as a community (for want of a better word).
Demonising people (whether seriously or in jest) who are outside that
community is part of what helps to bind it together. If an edict were
to come down from on high saying "thou shalt have a bike in each
show", the viewers would instantly know it for the token gesture that
it is.

So, what do we need? A programme that promotes cycling as fast,
glamorous, a bit dangerous (reasonable - so is driving), sexy, and
performed by people that the viewer can identify with or at least hope
to get a date with. What about a soap opera set in a cycle courier
company? With appropriate stereotyping of the people they come into
conflict with (taxi drivers, BMW owners, WVM, dopey pedestrians who
step off pavements without looking, bike thieves ...) they could
easily be made to look like sympathetic people the viewer would
relate to.

Maybe even after a year of ratings success the lead actor might be
invited on Top Gear for "star in a reasonably-priced car" ;-)

(NB If you are or have been a cycle courier, please don't follow up to
tell me the job isn't really like that. We're talking about TV, not
reality)

-dan

--
"please make sure that the person is your friend before you confirm"

Daniel Barlow <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Terry D said:

I have considered writing to the BBC and asking for a cycling
equivalent of 'Top Gear' [1], but even that would fail because only
those who are already interested in cycling would want to watch such a
programme. How does one persuade those in control of motoring
programmes to include pedal cycles in their programmes so that the
drivers of motor vehicles see pedal cycles as a valid form of
transport rather than something that nutters do just to slow down
motorists?

One doesn't. As said elsewhere in this thread, Top Gear is not about
transportation, it's about aspirational fantasy, neat toys, and
promoting "petrolhead" as a community (for want of a better word).
Demonising people (whether seriously or in jest) who are outside that
community is part of what helps to bind it together. If an edict were
to come down from on high saying "thou shalt have a bike in each
show", the viewers would instantly know it for the token gesture that
it is.

So, what do we need? A programme that promotes cycling as fast,
glamorous, a bit dangerous (reasonable - so is driving), sexy, and
performed by people that the viewer can identify with or at least hope
to get a date with. What about a soap opera set in a cycle courier
company? With appropriate stereotyping of the people they come into
conflict with (taxi drivers, BMW owners, WVM, dopey pedestrians who
step off pavements without looking, bike thieves ...) they could
easily be made to look like sympathetic people the viewer would
relate to.

Maybe even after a year of ratings success the lead actor might be
invited on Top Gear for "star in a reasonably-priced car" ;-)

(NB If you are or have been a cycle courier, please don't follow up to
tell me the job isn't really like that. We're talking about TV, not
reality)

TG is about the size of JC's private parts and nothing else IMHO,
would anyone on urc volunteer to go in the Nuremberg rally that is the
audience and espouse anything other than "my fuel injector's bigger
than yours"?