Gentlemen's race

smiles said:

Why is Lance not being attacked now ... i know it's difficult to win based on the gaps ... but
with time bonuses and all ...figure Tyler, Alexandre and Jan would go for it ... push it to
the finish.

Lance has a strong team around him. There is absolutely no way that Ullrich or Hamilton could
possibly break away from the bunch, without Lance and a bunch of his team mates going with them.

--
Dominic Richens | [email hidden] "If you're not *outraged*, you're not paying attention!"

it is traditional to not compete for time on the last day unless you are competing for the green
jersey. the only exceptions to this have been in one or two years where the difference in the GC was
only a few seconds, 10 or less. for Jan to attack now would be rude, disrespectful of tradition, and
most importantly hopeless. He is far to classy to do that.

smiles said:

Why is Lance not being attacked now ... i know it's difficult to win based on the gaps ... but
with time bonuses and all ...figure Tyler, Alexandre and Jan would go for it ... push it to
the finish.

Give it up.

"David Corsi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<ZeQUa.159769$Ph3.19161@sccrnsc04>...

Quoted message said:

it is traditional to not compete for time on the last day unless you are competing for the green
jersey. the only exceptions to this have been in one or two years where the difference in the GC
was only a few seconds, 10 or less. for Jan to attack now would be rude, disrespectful of
tradition, and most importantly hopeless. He is far to classy to do that.

Interesting....Jan Ulltrich gained 15 seconds against LA by NOT attacking. Kind of paradoxical,
in a Zen-like way.

Quoted message said:

Interesting....Jan Ulltrich gained 15 seconds against LA by NOT attacking. Kind of paradoxical,
in a Zen-like way.

One might almost think that Lance allowed him to recapture the time he lost in the fall in stage 19,
by not rushing up to join peloton A.

Just a speculation...

smiles said:

Why is Lance not being attacked now ... i know it's difficult to win based on the gaps ... but
with time bonuses and all ...figure Tyler, Alexandre and

Exactly. JU could have attacked while LANCE was off the back amongst the team cars receiving his
congratulations from all the team DS's, drinking his champagne etc. Would have been easy..

GK

"AMG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Interesting....Jan Ulltrich gained 15 seconds against LA by NOT attacking. Kind of
paradoxical, in a Zen-like way.

One might almost think that Lance allowed him to recapture the time he

lost

Quoted message said:

in the fall in stage 19, by not rushing up to join peloton A.

No.

"David Ryan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

smiles said:

Why is Lance not being attacked now ... i know it's difficult to win

based

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

on the gaps ... but with time bonuses and all ...figure Tyler, Alexandre

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Jan would go for it ... push it to the finish.

Give it up.

Give what up?? It's a race ... there is one finish ... we have seen more than one person attack and
gain way more than a minute at the finish of a stage ... why not push it to the finish, at least
try? It's "tradition" not to do this ... but why?? Hence the title of the post ... there does not
seem to be the win or die mentality here ... why not?? If they just gave up ... that's fine, but why
not give it a try??

s

Silly newbie...

Notwithstanding the tradtion not to attack the MJ on the final stage: It's a flat stage and if there
was any indication that JU would attack, Postal would be all over it. It would not work. No way to
gain 1:07. Maybe if he was within the range that the time bonuses would allow him to catch LA. Even
if LA had a lead of say only 15 seconds, I still think with the Postal team being stronger than
Bianchi, they would withstand any attack, but at least you would see them race Sunday.

"smiles" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"David Ryan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

smiles said:

Why is Lance not being attacked now ... i know it's difficult to win

based

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

on the gaps ... but with time bonuses and all ...figure Tyler,

Alexandre

Quoted message said:

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Jan would go for it ... push it to the finish.

Give it up.

Give what up?? It's a race ... there is one finish ... we have seen more than one person attack
and gain way more than a minute at the finish of a stage ... why not push it to the finish, at
least try? It's "tradition"

not

Quoted message said:

to do this ... but why?? Hence the title of the post ... there does not

seem

Quoted message said:

to be the win or die mentality here ... why not?? If they just gave up ... that's fine, but why
not give it a try??

s

I think our friend Mr Smiles might be looking at prior flat stage results to form the opinion that
Ullrich had the opportunity to overcome a 1:07 deficit on the final stage. True: There have been
many flat stages in which the time gap exceeded 1:07, but I can assure you that on each of those
occaisions it was because the peloton allowed such an occurance to happen in the first place.

It all depends on what's at stake. The stages where certain riders gain 10-20 minutes on the
peloton, it's only because those riders threatened no one. Everyone in the peloton has a radio, and
they all know the attacker's GC or points status within seconds of the attack

If Jan had any funny ideas, Postal would have immediately sent at least 4-5 riders to go after ANY
attempt by Ullrich to move off the front. Also, FDJ, Domo AND Telekom also would have countered any
break (as so demonstrated in yesterday's results).

Sure, it's a race, and Ullrich is a determined rider, but all you would have been able to see was a
100% certain chance of failure. Ullrich would have to be Superman to ride away from Lance + 150 of
the most determined riders in the world on a flat course.

"Brian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Silly newbie...

Notwithstanding the tradtion not to attack the MJ on the final stage: It's a flat stage and if
there was any indication that JU would attack, Postal would be all over it. It would not work.
No way to gain 1:07. Maybe if he was within the range that the time bonuses would allow him to
catch LA. Even if LA had a lead of say only 15 seconds, I still think with the Postal team
being stronger than Bianchi, they would withstand any attack, but at least you would see them
race Sunday.

"smiles" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"David Ryan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

smiles wrote:
>
> Why is Lance not being attacked now ... i know it's difficult to win

based

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> on the gaps ... but with time bonuses and all ...figure Tyler,

Alexandre and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Jan would go for it ... push it to the finish.

Give it up.

Give what up?? It's a race ... there is one finish ... we have seen more than one person attack
and gain way more than a minute at the finish of a stage ... why not push it to the finish, at
least try? It's "tradition"

not

Quoted message said:

to do this ... but why?? Hence the title of the post ... there does not

seem

Quoted message said:

to be the win or die mentality here ... why not?? If they just gave up ... that's fine, but why
not give it a try??

s

"kaiser" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I think our friend Mr Smiles might be looking at prior flat stage results to form the opinion that
Ullrich had the opportunity to overcome a 1:07 deficit on the final stage. True: There have been
many flat stages in which the time gap exceeded 1:07, but I can assure you that on each of those
occaisions it was because the peloton allowed such an occurance to happen in the first place.

A parallel to American sports might be a football team that sends in the second string when they're
behind 20-3 with 4 minutes left. Sure, there's an astronomical chance to score three touchdown and
win, but the reality is they are better off not getting the first team hurt, getting the 2nd team
some playing time, &c.

M.

"Michael" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

A parallel to American sports might be a football team

Ugh ... Football you bet ... don't get me on that tangent ... I come from a motorsports background
and am not happy with the way team sports are handled ... with racing (be it cycling or motor) you
can race no matter how new or slow ... where team sports are only if the coach wants you to play ...
or in my case, decides to pick you in the first place!!

Again as a motorsports person the "team" is who is being allowed to drive/ride under that sponsors
banner ... when the green flag drops the BS stops and it's one on one. After being in road cycling
for 3 years, it's still difficult to understand the team work of cycling. It's tough to not imagine
GH wants LA's top spot. Also, you rarely have multi day motorsports evens (ISDN being one of the
exceptions).

Say all of Bianchi was gone .. less Jan ... why could he not tap into the Postal team and use
them?? What would they do ... run him off the road?? Brake check him into a tree?? Rough him up
between stages??

s boardnbike.comboardnbike.comOpen ↗

smiles said:

Say all of Bianchi was gone .. less Jan ... why could he not tap into the Postal team and use
them?? What would they do ... run him off the road?? Brake check him into a tree?? Rough him up
between stages??

Wait until Jan went back to the team car to load up, then attack. Or just wait until Jan was
separated from LANCE for any reason, then attack. How many times would Jan have to watch a USPS
domestique hand LANCE a bottle, energy bar or five-course dinner before he decided he needed
something himself?

--
--
Lynn Wallace xmission.com~lawallOpen ↗ "I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we
could to protect our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security." --Microsoft VP in
charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.

You say you've been in road cycling for three years. But you still don't see how a team is
beneficial. This leads me to believe that you have not raced a bike in a mass-start road race. Have
you even drafted or been in any kind of paceline? Try riding off the front in a breakaway, and then
having to face a very determined chase effort by the field.

In order to make up 1:07, Jan would have needed to go off the front. How on earth would he "make
use" of Postal?

Take notice of situations where all of Lance's Postal teammates were at the front chasing a rival
down. They all took turns at the front, yet Lance did not. His team did the work, while Lance could
remain sheltered from the headwind. Likewise, they did a lot of work pacesetting at the front on the
earlier part of difficult climbs, helping to string the race out, and drop certain rivals early.
Lance benefitted by not having to actually set the pace, but rather just to follow-it. There is a
difference.

In addition, the teams assist by doing solo chase efforts to reel-in rivals (Rubieria and Heras, for
example), and by making trips back to the card for water and food. Lance never is the one who goes
back for the food and water. In contrast, in one of the latter mtn stages, there is a scene where
Ullrich is shown going back to HIS team car on the decent, and then having to expend oodles of
energy as he chased back to the lead-group.

"smiles" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Michael" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

A parallel to American sports might be a football team

Ugh ... Football you bet ... don't get me on that tangent ... I come from a motorsports background
and am not happy with the way team sports are handled ... with racing (be it cycling or motor) you
can race no matter how new or slow ... where team sports are only if the coach wants you to play
... or in my case, decides to pick you in the first place!!

Again as a motorsports person the "team" is who is being allowed to drive/ride under that sponsors
banner ... when the green flag drops the BS stops and it's one on one. After being in road cycling
for 3 years, it's still difficult to understand the team work of cycling. It's tough to not
imagine GH wants LA's top spot. Also, you rarely have multi day motorsports evens (ISDN being one
of the exceptions).

Say all of Bianchi was gone .. less Jan ... why could he not tap into the Postal team and use
them?? What would they do ... run him off the road?? Brake check him into a tree?? Rough him up
between stages??

s boardnbike.comboardnbike.comOpen ↗

I road ride .. not race ... and yes I know what drafting is like, it took 6 months of riding with
my wife before I found out how she'd blow by me on hills;-) ... the question was more of what would
he do without a team ... I understand the go-fer guy who gets water and food ... but the drafting,
what would they do if he just hooked up with them ... for the final why not team with the sprinters
and TH and make a go of it?? My question here was more of a general one ... not specific on the
final day.

s

"kaiser" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

You say you've been in road cycling for three years. But you still don't see how a team is
beneficial. This leads me to believe that you have not raced a bike in a mass-start road race.
Have you even drafted or been in any kind of paceline? Try riding off the front in a breakaway,
and then having to face a very determined chase effort by the field.

In order to make up 1:07, Jan would have needed to go off the front. How on earth would he "make
use" of Postal?

Take notice of situations where all of Lance's Postal teammates were at the front chasing a rival
down. They all took turns at the front, yet Lance did not. His team did the work, while Lance
could remain sheltered from the headwind. Likewise, they did a lot of work pacesetting at the
front on the earlier part of difficult climbs, helping to string the race out, and drop certain
rivals early. Lance benefitted by not having to actually set the pace, but rather just to
follow-it. There is a difference.

In addition, the teams assist by doing solo chase efforts to reel-in rivals (Rubieria and Heras,
for example), and by making trips back to the card for water and food. Lance never is the one who
goes back for the food and water. In contrast, in one of the latter mtn stages, there is a scene
where Ullrich is shown going back to HIS team car on the decent, and then having to expend oodles
of energy as he chased back to the lead-group.

"smiles" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Michael" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

A parallel to American sports might be a football team

Ugh ... Football you bet ... don't get me on that tangent ... I come

from a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

motorsports background and am not happy with the way team sports are

handled

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

... with racing (be it cycling or motor) you can race no matter how new

or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

slow ... where team sports are only if the coach wants you to play ...

or in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

my case, decides to pick you in the first place!!

Again as a motorsports person the "team" is who is being allowed to drive/ride under that
sponsors banner ... when the green flag drops the

BS

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

stops and it's one on one. After being in road cycling for 3 years, it's still difficult to
understand the team work of cycling. It's tough to

not

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

imagine GH wants LA's top spot. Also, you rarely have multi day

motorsports

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

evens (ISDN being one of the exceptions).

Say all of Bianchi was gone .. less Jan ... why could he not tap into

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Postal team and use them?? What would they do ... run him off the road?? Brake check him into a
tree?? Rough him up between stages??

s boardnbike.comboardnbike.comOpen ↗