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Gentics or environment

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Cycling Training
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9 February 2004
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17 February 2004
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rob of the og
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  1. Quoted post said:

    Originally posted by oneradtec


    I do not have an inkling into what the academics might say about this....and I might be terribly wrong. It seems to me that the black african athletes have more fast twitch fibers.....which might explain why they excel in certain american sports like basketball and football...but if this is correct..how do we explain the Kenyan's success in the marathon?

    I believe these types of ethnic trends are usually associated with environmental and socio-economic factors rather than physiological differences. E.g. there's nothing in the physiological make-up of Indian sub-continental people that makes them good cricketers, it's just that that's the sport they often favour for whatever historical and cultural reasons. Probably the white boys in America have a generally easier life and don't have the drive to go out and achieve that the black boys do.

    The question of the high cadence in cycling is interesting, because it's one of those things that 'just seems to work.' Cadence for running, rowing, x-skiing, swimming, everything basically is far lower than for cycling, and there's also the magnification of mechanical inefficiences in the bike's drivetrain caused by higher rev's.

    I did some tests a few winters ago forcing myself to spin at different cadences and checking speed attained for distances at heart rate (should have used power Ric I know, but this was 2 years ago, srm cranks were even more expensive then) and for me a slightly higher rpm was better. Without having tested this I put it down to recovery ability, the muscles were 'looser' and the lactic acid could get moved away more quickly, but this is probably rubbish.

  2. Quoted post said:

    Originally posted by rob of the og
    I believe these types of ethnic trends are usually associated with environmental and socio-economic factors rather than physiological differences. E.g. there's nothing in the physiological make-up of Indian sub-continental people that makes them good cricketers, it's just that that's the sport they often favour for whatever historical and cultural reasons. Probably the white boys in America have a generally easier life and don't have the drive to go out and achieve that the black boys do.


    There are some real genetic differences between people from different locations around the world and these do help to explain why some people are better at events than others.

    For example... Europeans tend to be the best throwers.

    In terms of Kenjan running ability; many of the runners have come from a limited area of kenja. It would appear that some of the kenjan benefit from a favourable distribution of mass accross their bodies (leading to good running economy) and potential to attain very high levels of fitness. This however is caused by training and genetics.

    Obviously, the effects of lifestyle and culture have a huge part to play as well. Perhaps this is the reason why most pro cyclists tend to come from Europe.

    What this has to do with weight and climbing I don't know. Perhaps there should be a new thread on this as its very off topic!

    While this is a resonable topic for discussion and scientific research... can we try to avoid racist comments (even if they are unintentional)!!!

  3. Quoted post said:

    Originally posted by 2LAP
    There are some real genetic differences between people from different locations around the world and these do help to explain why some people are better at events than others.

    For example... Europeans tend to be the best throwers.

    In terms of Kenjan running ability; many of the runners have come from a limited area of kenja. It would appear that some of the kenjan benefit from a favourable distribution of mass accross their bodies (leading to good running economy) and potential to attain very high levels of fitness. This however is caused by training and genetics.

    Obviously, the effects of lifestyle and culture have a huge part to play as well. Perhaps this is the reason why most pro cyclists tend to come from Europe.

    What this has to do with weight and climbing I don't know. Perhaps there should be a new thread on this as its very off topic!

    While this is a resonable topic for discussion and scientific research... can we try to avoid racist comments (even if they are unintentional)!!!

    I agree that this is a somewhat awkward area of debate because of the thin line between pointing out differences and appearing racist.

    The Kenyan (and also Ethiopian) group of runners that you highlight come from high on the plains of the Rift Valley. They live and train from a young age at very high altitude. Those that choose to take up running will benefit from that altitude. Whether you can entirely blame the environment I don't know (I mean, their ancestors lived in the same environment, perhaps there have been genetic variations caused by that environment)

    The American football/basketball thing is more clear cut - there doesn't seem to be any evidence that all black team sport players originate from any specific gene pool (for instance it is a fact that there is more genetic variation among peoples from the African continent than there is between *all* the other races of people around the world) so you have to put it down to environmental rather than genetic factors. Likewise the predominance of white-european-origin cyclists - it's about role-models, sufficient free-time, money to buy bikes, living in places with decent roads, not that white legs go round in circles better.

    But I don't know anything about throwing sports, and yes this is way off topic.

  4. Quoted post said:

    Originally posted by rob of the og
    I agree that this is a somewhat awkward area of debate because of the thin line between pointing out differences and appearing racist.

    The Kenyan (and also Ethiopian) group of runners that you highlight come from high on the plains of the Rift Valley. They live and train from a young age at very high altitude. Those that choose to take up running will benefit from that altitude. Whether you can entirely blame the environment I don't know (I mean, their ancestors lived in the same environment, perhaps there have been genetic variations caused by that environment)

    The American football/basketball thing is more clear cut - there doesn't seem to be any evidence that all black team sport players originate from any specific gene pool (for instance it is a fact that there is more genetic variation among peoples from the African continent than there is between *all* the other races of people around the world) so you have to put it down to environmental rather than genetic factors. Likewise the predominance of white-european-origin cyclists - it's about role-models, sufficient free-time, money to buy bikes, living in places with decent roads, not that white legs go round in circles better.

    But I don't know anything about throwing sports, and yes this is way off topic.

    I just want to explore this issue some more.
    The endurance athletes from Africa come from Kenya and Ethiopia
    and they're ususally from an area called the Rift Valley.
    In fact studies have found that per head of population, this region
    produces men and women capable of performing in endurance
    running, far greater than anywhere else in the world.
    These people are predisposed to being able to run all day.
    This is because these people have to walk/run to get from A-B, their diet is such that they're consume nourishing food and both of these factors over hundreds of generations make these people
    genetically pre-disposed to being able to run all day.

    The success of the black sports people in the USA is different however.
    The black men and women that you currently see performing are direct descendants of slaves from West Africa.
    Studies have shown that people in West Africa (Nigeria, Ivory Coast etc) are predisposed to perform in 'speed events' such as sprinting.
    Their muscle fibre is different to those in East Africa.

    One interesting fact about Indurain.
    He comes from the Basque region of Spain and it has been found that people in this region are also genetically pre-disposed to having high fitness levels as well.

    I think that the overall message is that genes do most certainly contribute to how a person performs in a sport.
    But hardwork and dedication are also important.

  5. Quoted post said:

    Originally posted by rob of the og
    I did some tests a few winters ago forcing myself to spin at different cadences and checking speed attained for distances at heart rate (should have used power Ric I know, but this was 2 years ago, srm cranks were even more expensive then) and for me a slightly higher rpm was better. Without having tested this I put it down to recovery ability, the muscles were 'looser' and the lactic acid could get moved away more quickly, but this is probably rubbish.

    bringing this back to cycling... when you say a higher cadence was better, what exactly were you getting (results wise)?

    ric

  6. Quoted post said:

    Originally posted by ricstern
    bringing this back to cycling... when you say a higher cadence was better, what exactly were you getting (results wise)?

    ric

    It was just timing some rides up and down the coast road here, I doubt it would be scientific by your standards! I'll try to find the numbers in my diary software. Because I was concerned about the effect over relatively long distances (the test course was 20 miles or so) the times varied quite a bit anyway, I was more worried about 'feel' to be honest. Perhaps I'll try it again more scientifically on my rides to work over the coming few weeks and post what I get.

  7. This may be a stupid question and I hope I don't sound too ridiculus asking it, but what are the determining factors when considering whether a rider is genetically predisposed to being a great cyclist as opposed to a mediocre cyclist? Is it a combination of VO2max,LT,fast or slow twitch muscles,years of proper diet,or determination and strength of charactor? BTW very interesting reading.

  8. Quoted post said:

    Originally posted by bryanquinn
    This may be a stupid question and I hope I don't sound too ridiculus asking it, but what are the determining factors when considering whether a rider is genetically predisposed to being a great cyclist as opposed to a mediocre cyclist? Is it a combination of VO2max,LT,fast or slow twitch muscles,years of proper diet,or determination and strength of charactor? BTW very interesting reading.


    Yes, all those factors and more.

    Obviously not things like 'years of proper diet' or 'walking from A to B' (see limerickman's post) as these are concened with lifestyle and not genetics!!!!! For genetic characteristics to be reinforced they need to present a selective advantage (i.e. to increase the likelyhood of reproduction and/or reduce the likelyhood of death).

    Some people with a good genetic profile might become a poor cyclist due to poor psychology, poor lifestyle or poor training.

  9. Quoted post said:

    Originally posted by 2LAP
    Yes, all those factors and more.

    Obviously not things like 'years of proper diet' or 'walking from A to B' (see limerickman's post) as these are concened with lifestyle and not genetics!!!!! For genetic characteristics to be reinforced they need to present a selective advantage (i.e. to increase the likelyhood of reproduction and/or reduce the likelyhood of death).

    Some people with a good genetic profile might become a poor cyclist due to poor psychology, poor lifestyle or poor training.

    2Lap I disagree with your view.

    For example in East Africa in Ethiopia and Kenya, for generations
    those people have eaten the same food and have had to walk/run from A-B.

    It is the held view within the medical world that at some point envoirmental circumstances do impact genetic makeup/disposition.
    Therefore, it is valid to conclude that what were envoirmental reasons for people adapting to live within their circumstances, during all those generations, does become part of the genetic information transferred to subsequent generations.
    In fact, these envoirmental factors can influence genetic compositions within a short time span.

  10. Quoted post said:

    Originally posted by limerickman
    2Lap I disagree with your view.

    For example in East Africa in Ethiopia and Kenya, for generations
    those people have eaten the same food and have had to walk/run from A-B.

    It is the held view within the medical world that at some point envoirmental circumstances do impact genetic makeup/disposition.
    Therefore, it is valid to conclude that what were envoirmental reasons for people adapting to live within their circumstances, during all those generations, does become part of the genetic information transferred to subsequent generations.
    In fact, these envoirmental factors can influence genetic compositions within a short time span.


    And how does that happen? Via what mechanism? Unless the 'some point/short time span' you refer to is caused by 'natural selection' in which case we do agree.

    I thought cell division was purely random, with cells donating half of their DNA to one sperm (or egg) and the other half of their DNA to another sperm (or egg). I can't see how diet or environment can effect the selectivness of this process or decide which sperm reaches which egg.

    If I live in a sunny place (having a tan all the time), cycle 20 miles a days and eat no junk food then my children will not be born with enhanced potential to tan, the potential to be fitter or the potential to be healthier. These factors won't effect their genotype as they do not create a selective advantage. This would be the case even if continued for many generations.

    Obviously if the East Africans had to walk from A-B as a matter of survival (i.e. to get water or food) then being unable to walk those distances would present a selective disadvantage and over time would change the genotype. In this instance, the genes that support walking would have a greater likelyhood of being passed on and therefore be reinforced in the 'genepool'. The same is true of eskimos having higer %BF and people originating from hot countries having naturaly coloured skin.

    So yes, diet and environment might influence genetics but not directly.

  11. Hi 2lap,
    I was wondering (and I ask this question in all humility) what your background is. I have read your posts with great facination at times, and I am always intrigued with your answers to postings.
    My question to limerickman would be the same, for the same reasons. Your answers to posts are always intellegent and to the point.

  12. Quoted post said:

    Originally posted by bryanquinn
    Hi 2lap,
    I was wondering (and I ask this question in all humility) what your background is. I have read your posts with great facination at times, and I am always intrigued with your answers to postings.
    My question to limerickman would be the same, for the same reasons. Your answers to posts are always intellegent and to the point.


    Thanks Bryan, I appreciate that.

    I'm an exercise physiologist (but at 24 still very much a baby in the field) still doing my PHD. I've been racing bikes (MTB, then cyclo cross, TT's, road and finaly track) since I was about 11 and coaching since I was 18. My biggest character flaw seems to do me some good in scientific and coaching circles; I can't stop asking 'why'!

    I am really interested in Darwin; hence my interest in genetics and a possible future change of career.

    There have been some great discussions recently on the site; I have learned lots of new things and found some interestng people on here!

    Bryan, I see your a photographer you lucky man. I've been running around with my ME Super that I had for my 16th birthday (which I neglected for a good 6 years) for the last few months trying to get some decent shots. Not having much luck though!

  13. [QUOTE]Originally posted by 2LAP
    [B]Thanks Bryan, I appreciate that.

    I'm an exercise physiologist (but at 24 still very much a baby in the field) still doing my PHD. I've been racing bikes (MTB, then cyclo cross, TT's, road and finaly track) since I was about 11 and coaching since I was 18. My biggest character flaw seems to do me some good in scientific and coaching circles; I can't stop asking 'why'!
    [/quote]

    nowt wrong with that! i do the same!

    Quoted post said:


    I am really interested in Darwin; hence my interest in genetics and a possible future change of career.



    not overly an area i'm interested in, but i know two people in this area... maybe able to introduce you if you don't know them

    Quoted post said:


    There have been some great discussions recently on the site; I have learned lots of new things and found some interestng people on here!



    the net is cool for that

    Quoted post said:


    Bryan, I see your a photographer you lucky man. I've been running around with my ME Super that I had for my 16th birthday (which I neglected for a good 6 years) for the last few months trying to get some decent shots. Not having much luck though! [/B]



    you should've been in my family -- i'm the 'black sheep' for not being a photographer :-)!!!!! lol!

    ric

  14. Quoted post said:

    Originally posted by ricstern
    you should've been in my family -- i'm the 'black sheep' for not being a photographer :-)!!!!! lol!

    ric


    Why is it people from Wales never get bored of sheep jokes! 😉

    I might take you up on the intro's, but must get my head in the books a little longer first!!! 🙁

    Now, what was the topic of this thread again!!!! 😕

  15. Quoted post said:

    Originally posted by bryanquinn
    Hi 2lap,
    I was wondering (and I ask this question in all humility) what your background is. I have read your posts with great facination at times, and I am always intrigued with your answers to postings.
    My question to limerickman would be the same, for the same reasons. Your answers to posts are always intellegent and to the point.

    Hi Brian,

    My background is in Finance (I am an accountant) and I hold a diploma in legal studies and I am currently studying my finals for the Bar.

    Thanks for your nice compliment - I enjoy reading all viewpoints
    and everyone contribution is interesting especially from those fans
    of our sport who live outside the traditional powers in our sport.

    I do enjoy reading 2Laps views - and I agree with you, his views are always educational because he seems to take time to
    express his answers clearly.

  16. It's very nice to meet both of you. I'm glad I took the time to inquire into your backgrounds. Thank you for chiming in Rick🙂 I know a little about you as I have been to your site. Your posts, and replies also intrigue me and have answered some of my questions. Yes I am a photographer, specializing in weddings. I also will photograph just about anything I can. lol. It has been a passion of mine for a great number of years and I just turned it into a bussiness this past July.
    I had been supplementing my income with fulltime work until last December when my job ended abruptly and without much notice. So in order to retain my sanity I pulled my bike off the wall and dove into my other great passion. Needless to say it has been a whirlwind love affair. One such as to make my wife to be very jealous. LOL! I have seen great improvements this time out and owe alot of it to this forum and it's contributors. So thank you all.
    BQ
    P.S. my web site is: quinnphotographyllc.com if you would like to meet Linda and me. Cheers!

  17. Quoted post said:

    Originally posted by bryanquinn
    It's very nice to meet both of you. I'm glad I took the time to inquire into your backgrounds. Thank you for chiming in Rick🙂 I know a little about you as I have been to your site. Your posts, and replies also intrigue me and have answered some of my questions. Yes I am a photographer, specializing in weddings. I also will photograph just about anything I can. lol. It has been a passion of mine for a great number of years and I just turned it into a bussiness this past July.
    I had been supplementing my income with fulltime work until last December when my job ended abruptly and without much notice. So in order to retain my sanity I pulled my bike off the wall and dove into my other great passion. Needless to say it has been a whirlwind love affair. One such as to make my wife to be very jealous. LOL! I have seen great improvements this time out and owe alot of it to this forum and it's contributors. So thank you all.
    BQ
    P.S. my web site is: quinnphotographyllc.com if you would like to meet Linda and me. Cheers!

    Well, Brian good for you. You know success is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration and with hard work, you've obviously been
    able to setup your own business, which is a great credit to you.
    And indeed, the bike helps to keep things in perspective as well !

  18. Quoted post said:

    Originally posted by 2LAP
    Yes, all those factors and more.
    Some people with a good genetic profile might become a poor cyclist due to poor psychology, poor lifestyle or poor training.

    I would like to point out that WOMEN were not considered to be long distance or endurance atheletes. It was thought they could not and should not hurt themselves trying to do these sports.
    It was not until 1984 that women were even allowed to run in the marathon event in teh Olympics.

    I would also like to point out that not only are women stronger now and faster than the men of just 20 years ago. But women competitors that are swimming are also beating Mark Spitz's record times. !!!!! Tell someone in the 70's that this would happen and they would have laughed you silly.

    So sometimes a culture's prejudices come into play and can squelch a perfectly good athelete. :O

  19. Quoted post said:

    Originally posted by JuneBug
    I would like to point out that WOMEN were not considered to be long distance or endurance atheletes. It was thought they could not and should not hurt themselves trying to do these sports.
    It was not until 1984 that women were even allowed to run in the marathon event in teh Olympics.

    I would also like to point out that not only are women stronger now and faster than the men of just 20 years ago. But women competitors that are swimming are also beating Mark Spitz's record times. !!!!! Tell someone in the 70's that this would happen and they would have laughed you silly.

    So sometimes a culture's prejudices come into play and can squelch a perfectly good athelete. :O

    Very well put !

  20. If you are on your trainer right now and surfing around...check out this story on the First Woman Kona winner. 1982.

    I still remember how I cried when I saw that second woman crawling , crying, her legs wasted from effort cross the finish line. the first woman winner was in 11 hours.

    good stuff!!!

    http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/01/25/CMGOB3Q2M46.DTL

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