Geko 201

Jiffy said:

Quoted message said:

Are you sure about that? I don't mean in relation to the eTrex
range, but in relation to the newer models.

My comment specifically mentioned the Etrex range

It did, you are quite correct.

Quoted message said:

so yeah, I'm sure!
I'm not talking about newer, GPS models, just the Etrex range.

But I thought I'd mention it anyway... :-)

Quoted message said:

But,
since you asked, let's see how the 301 compares to the 60CS in terms
of weight v battery life.

Nice of you to take the trouble.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

One pair of 2300 AAs have as much
power as 6 750 AAAs. Are AAs more than three times heavier?

A quick look at Google shows AAA's usually weigh 12 grams and AA's
weigh about 27 grams. That means AAA's weigh 16g per amp and AA's
weigh 11.7g per amp.

Oh, that's good then?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Even if
they are, if the latest battery consumption figures are to be
believed I should be able to last a weekend on one set of AAs (but
of course I'll bring spares)

Pretty amazing. 20 hours on one set of AA's!!!

Yes, I agree, it sounds amazing. For someone used to only 8 hours with
4 AAs I don't quite believe it yet. I've read claims of 30 hours but I
think that would be normal batteries, not rechargeables. I think 20
hours have been claimed for rechargeables. I won't believe it until I
see it though and at full strength too, not that battery save mode
nonsense!

Quoted message said:

The 301 does 9 hours
on 2 AAA's so that works out at 2.667 grams per hours for the 301 and
2.7 grams per hour for the 60CS. To put it another way, the 301
consumes 167mAh per hour and the 60CS consumes 215mAh per hour.
Pretty good going consider its a much bigger device powering a colour
screen! However, in terms of weight versus battery life it does lose
out to the Geko and that's before we address the fact the 60CS weighs
2.2 times what the Geko 301 does.

True, and whether you choose to believe it or not I did seriously
consider getting a Geko as the ultimate GPS for ultralightweight
camping. My brother Nigel can testify to this. In the end I decided
that the extra features of the 60CS were more desirable to me (but not
strictly *necessary* for those ultralightweight enthusiasts who may be
interested).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Normally I use 4 AAs per day with my GPS12, so I'll bring 16-20
batteries for a long weekend. That sort of weight adds up, so
carrying only 4 for a whole trip will feel like nothing.

You'll be saving upto 16x27g=432g, almost a full pound in weight!

Yes, that's quite a saving isn't it! That fact wasn't lost on me! :-)
I've been humping around far too much battery weight for far too long
now.

Quoted message said:

Your total GPS weight for a long weekend is now just 266g. For the
Geko 301 the equivalent figure would be 179g which is a poor saving
really when you consider all the extra features of the 60CS.

Yes, that's how I looked at it. A little more weight but many more
features, and glorious eye candy too! :-) Thanks for your analysis.

Quoted message said:

Best of
all, the 60CS also comes with GAMES!!!!

Ah, but if you use them they will consume extra battery power which will
change the whole equation. Fortunately I'm not going to.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk
http://www.photosig.com/go/users/userphotos?id=118749

<snip>

Quoted message said:

I've read claims of 30 hours but I
think that would be normal batteries, not rechargeables.

Ah, that would be the 60C and not the 60CS. According to Garmin, the 60C
lasts 30 hours on a set of batteries and the 60CS lasts 20.

Cheers, Jiffy

"Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

True, and whether you choose to believe it or not I did seriously
consider getting a Geko as the ultimate GPS for ultralightweight
camping.

Still not as light as a compass though, eh?

AndyP <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

"Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

True, and whether you choose to believe it or not I did seriously
consider getting a Geko as the ultimate GPS for ultralightweight
camping.

Still not as light as a compass though, eh?

That isn't the way to look at it.

I would work out how many lb/hrs my Silva has cost me in carrying it
around for about 30 years, and using it perhaps half a dozen times in
anger.

The GPS is useful every time I carry it, whether for track creating,
navigating, telling me the sunset time, etc. It's an almanac, not
just a magnetic needle. ;-)
--
Gordon

Paul Saunders <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

"Dominic Sexton" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

It was supposed to be April this year but that date came and went. I
have not seen a new date from the Euro Space Agency (the folk putting
EGNOS together) so I would

I read a recent document which claimed it would be operational by the
end of the third quarter of this year.

To me, this is academic, I am well satisfied with the accuracy without
EGNOS, but I suppose I'll try it out of curiosity. The danger would be
in assuming that degree of accuracy when the satellite was inaccessible.
(Or will it always be available)?

In any case, I would need a [censored]-hot^Wexperienced magnetic compass
navigator to be with me in order to check that the accuracy was truly to
1 metre.
Any volunteers?
;-)
--
Gordon

In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Saunders
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

"Dominic Sexton" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Any user with a serious interest in accuracy should not use ESTB /

EGNOS

Quoted message said:

until it has been demonstrated to actually improve matters.

Doesn't seem that I have any choice with my Garmin.

With other SBAS/WAAS capable Garmins the user has a choice of Normal /
WAAS / Battery Save / Demo under System in Setup.

If they have not implemented turning it off I would complain LOUDLY to
them!

--

Dominic Sexton
http://www.dscs.demon.co.uk/

Dominic Sexton <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Saunders
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

"Dominic Sexton" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Any user with a serious interest in accuracy should not use ESTB /

EGNOS

Quoted message said:

until it has been demonstrated to actually improve matters.

Doesn't seem that I have any choice with my Garmin.

With other SBAS/WAAS capable Garmins the user has a choice of Normal /
WAAS / Battery Save / Demo under System in Setup.

If they have not implemented turning it off I would complain LOUDLY to
them!

Oh dear! Just when I was beginning to think I ought to invest in a
fourth, colour/stereophonic GPS. :-)

A friend's son who works for a certain aeronautical company told me
about a Brit scheme which is being developed to significantly improve
GPS accuracy without needing WASS or EGNOS assistance, but I'd better
not discuss it here.
--
Gordon

"Gordon" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

The GPS is useful every time I carry it, whether for track creating,
navigating, telling me the sunset time, etc. It's an almanac, not
just a magnetic needle. ;-)

And games apparently. I'm waiting for one to come out with a built in telly
so's I don't have to miss Big Brother whilst in me tent. But to be serious
for a minute, whenever the subject of GPS comes up a lot of people I've
spoke to don't want any of the features they put in them. All they want is
a simple cheap wristwatch with something that just gives them a grid ref of
where they are at the time.

AndyP wrote on Sat, 24 Jul 2004 12:04:18 +0100....

Quoted message said:

But to be serious
for a minute, whenever the subject of GPS comes up a lot of people I've
spoke to don't want any of the features they put in them. All they want is
a simple cheap wristwatch with something that just gives them a grid ref of
where they are at the time.

Anybody tried a Foretrex?

--
Tim Jackson
[email hidden]
(Change '.invalid' to '.co.uk' to reply direct)
Absurd patents: visit http://www.patent.freeserve.co.uk

On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 09:52:27 +0100, Gordon <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

AndyP <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

"Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

True, and whether you choose to believe it or not I did seriously
consider getting a Geko as the ultimate GPS for ultralightweight
camping.

Still not as light as a compass though, eh?

That isn't the way to look at it.

I would work out how many lb/hrs my Silva has cost me in carrying it
around for about 30 years, and using it perhaps half a dozen times in
anger.

The GPS is useful every time I carry it, whether for track creating,
navigating, telling me the sunset time, etc. It's an almanac, not
just a magnetic needle. ;-)

But you will still be carrying the compas around too...

Richard Webb

"Tim Jackson" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Anybody tried a Foretrex?

I picked one up in Cotswolds new store by Piccadilly Circus yesterday to see
whether it was something I'd want to wear on my wrist. Not really. Didn't
look to see how much they were selling them for.

Dominic Sexton said:

Quoted message said:

Doesn't seem that I have any choice with my Garmin.

With other SBAS/WAAS capable Garmins the user has a choice of Normal /
WAAS / Battery Save / Demo under System in Setup.

Yes I have that.

Quoted message said:

If they have not implemented turning it off I would complain LOUDLY to
them!

No, what I meant was that even with WAAS turned on, it doesn't do
anything because it ignores the test signals. I'd like to be able to
pick up the test signals, just to observe the effect, even if it makes
it less accurate. If it were less accurate then I'd turn it off, I'd
just like to be able to have the option.

But as ever in this "automatic" world, I guess I'm too stupid to be
trusted with the responsibility of manually turning the test signals
off.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk
http://www.photosig.com/go/users/userphotos?id=118749

Gordon said:

To me, this is academic, I am well satisfied with the accuracy without
EGNOS, but I suppose I'll try it out of curiosity.

For normal navigation it's not necessary at all.

Quoted message said:

The danger would
be in assuming that degree of accuracy when the satellite was
inaccessible.

No problem there. When the GPS picks up an EGNOS signal it will show a
"D" (for differential) in the signal strength bars of the satellites
that are being corrected. When there are lots of Ds you'll have better
accuracy, if there are none then you won't. The EPE should change
appropriately to reflect the greater accuracy.

(When I tried my brother's GPS72 some time ago, that was picking up the
EGNOS signals, but they significantly degraded the accuracy. The EPE
was jumping about frenetically showing some very big numbers. I turned
it off (but at least I was able to pick up the test signals with that
unit).

Quoted message said:

(Or will it always be available)?

Once they're operational, they'll always be there, but since they orbit
the equator they'll be low down on the southern horizon, so there'll be
a significant "EGNOS shadow" behind buildings and trees, on north facing
slopes and in deep valleys. There'll be plenty of places where you
won't get a signal, since Britain is too far north to make full use of
it (great for soldiers in the Gulf though).

You will be able to pick up the signal on most summits, south facing
slopes and southern coasts, so hill walkers and sunbathers will get far
more benefit than drivers in towns and cities where buildings will
usually block the signal. Sailors will also get an unobstructed view
out on the open water.

By the way, it's not just one EGNOS satellite, there are three
satellites covering the whole of Britain (located roughly SW, S and SE
of us) and a fourth that just covers the SE of Britain, so Londoners
could potentially make use of up to four satellites if they can get into
a position where they can actually see them. This is much better than
the US, where they can only see two WAAS satellites at best, and on the
west and east coasts only one.

Recent test reports claim an accuracy of 1m horizontal and 1-2m vertical
for EGNOS, far better than the 7m originally predicted. Presumably due
to being able to pick up three sats at a time, which will improve
accuracy more than just one. Should be great when it comes online later
this year, but only if you need to know your position with great
accuracy (for locating that food cache!).

Quoted message said:

In any case, I would need a [censored]-hot^Wexperienced magnetic compass
navigator to be with me in order to check that the accuracy was truly
to 1 metre.

No. Compass users wouldn't be able to determine that anyway. You can
check it yourself at a trig point - highly accurate lists of OS trig
points are available, but you need to use the WGS84 list rather than the
OS list, due to conversion errors (see Garmin Geko Accuracy thread)

You can also check it by marking your car at the start and end of each
walk to see how much it moved while you were away.

Quoted message said:

Any volunteers?
;-)

Don't worry, I'll be checking it out and reporting back! :-)

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk
http://www.photosig.com/go/users/userphotos?id=118749

Jiffy said:

Ah, that would be the 60C and not the 60CS. According to Garmin, the
60C lasts 30 hours on a set of batteries and the 60CS lasts 20.

Ah yes, but that would take into account use of the compass wouldn't it?
I've set my compass to switch on if my speed drops below 0kph, so it
will never turn on (that would eat all my battery power given how often
I stop to take photos). It will only turn on if I do so manually (by
holding the Page button), but it's a feature I'm hardly ever going to
use, so can I expect my battery life to be closer to the 60C?

Also, the altimeter. That doesn't consume extra battery power, does it?

Isn't there a way that the 60CS can log pressure data whilst not being
used? I know you can switch the GPS off and use it in "barometer mode"
only (which is what I'm doing now), but does it have to be switched on
to do this? Surely it can't log data if it's switched off?

Which makes me wonder about the alarm clock feature. Surely it would
need to be switched on to use this feature too? Can't see me wasting
batteries leaving my GPS switched on all night when out camping, but I
would like to see how the pressure has changed during the night.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk
http://www.photosig.com/go/users/userphotos?id=118749

AndyP said:

Quoted message said:

True, and whether you choose to believe it or not I did seriously
consider getting a Geko as the ultimate GPS for ultralightweight
camping.

Still not as light as a compass though, eh?

Why would I need a compass?

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk
http://www.photosig.com/go/users/userphotos?id=118749

Gordon said:

I would work out how many lb/hrs my Silva has cost me in carrying it
around for about 30 years, and using it perhaps half a dozen times in
anger.

Yeah, almost completely useless. I've always navigated with a map.

Quoted message said:

The GPS is useful every time I carry it, whether for track creating,
navigating, telling me the sunset time, etc. It's an almanac, not
just a magnetic needle. ;-)

It's a trip recorder.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk
http://www.photosig.com/go/users/userphotos?id=118749

AndyP said:

And games apparently. I'm waiting for one to come out with a built
in telly so's I don't have to miss Big Brother whilst in me tent.

For those who aren't aware, all of the GPS games (except one) are "GPS
enhanced" games, that means you play them by moving around, so you can't
play them sitting in the tent. Not only might this be a bit dangerous
if you've camped near a cliff ;-) but they require physical effort,
which is probably the last thing you need after a hard day walking in
the hills.

Thus they aren't much use for keeping you occupied while you lie there
with a broken leg (the one you broke playing the games too close to a
cliff) waiting for the mountain rescue to arrive. Presumably that's
what the other game is for.

Quoted message said:

But to be serious for a minute, whenever the subject of GPS comes up
a lot of people I've spoke to don't want any of the features they put
in them. All they want is a simple cheap wristwatch with something
that just gives them a grid ref of where they are at the time.

That's what people who *don't* have a GPS want. Once they get one, most
people realise that it's capable of so much more. If all they use it
for is to read off a grid ref then they are completely missing the
point. This is how a traditional map and compass navigator might use a
GPS, just to confirm their position on the map before taking another
compass bearing and following the magnetic needle.

The whole point of a GPS (when used for navigation) is that it provides
you with a new method of navigating, by plotting waypoints and routes in
advance, ideally with the aid of software. When you get used to this
method of navigating you find that you never have to look at a grid ref
again.

The idea of looking up a grid ref on a walk is quite alien to me, I
hardly ever do it (unless waypoints haven't been plotted in advance and
adding one becomes necessary). It's the traditional navigators who tend
to be concerned with grid refs, and they assume that to be the main
advantage of owning a GPS. But an experienced GPS user who plans routes
with software hardly ever needs to look at a grid ref, except when
calibrating a map.

If all you really want is a grid ref, then just get one of those GPS
watches, but if you buy a proper GPS, be prepared to learn a new way of
navigating if you want to get the best out of it.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk
http://www.photosig.com/go/users/userphotos?id=118749

RJ Webb said:

But you will still be carrying the compas around too...

Wanna bet?

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk
http://www.photosig.com/go/users/userphotos?id=118749

Gordon said:

Oh dear! Just when I was beginning to think I ought to invest in a
fourth, colour/stereophonic GPS. :-)

Yes, you should!

Actually the colour is very useful, especially on the map screen. Also
on the satellite screen where you can use multi-colour mode to relate
the signal strengh bars to the satellites. On the other screens it just
looks pretty.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk
http://www.photosig.com/go/users/userphotos?id=118749

In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Saunders
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Dominic Sexton said:

Quoted message said:

Doesn't seem that I have any choice with my Garmin.

With other SBAS/WAAS capable Garmins the user has a choice of Normal /
WAAS / Battery Save / Demo under System in Setup.

Yes I have that.

OK that's a relief!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If they have not implemented turning it off I would complain LOUDLY to
them!

No, what I meant was that even with WAAS turned on, it doesn't do
anything because it ignores the test signals. I'd like to be able to
pick up the test signals, just to observe the effect, even if it makes
it less accurate. If it were less accurate then I'd turn it off, I'd
just like to be able to have the option.

ESTB was transmitting a flag called "Do Not Use" so it seems sensible
for consumer receivers to respect that flag.

However some time ago that flag was switched off and Garmins were then
able to use the "corrections". I do not think it is currently being
transmitted and I have heard of Garmins recently (last month) being able
to use the signal.

Unfortunately the only satellite currently transmitting ESTB signals is
the Inmarsat IOR satellite which is located over the equator in the
Indian Ocean (64 degrees east). That makes it really rather low in the
sky and hence difficult to receive in the UK.

Previously the AOR-E satellite was also broadcasting ESTB signals and,
being over the east Atlantic, it was much easier to receive here.

IOR is identified in Garmins (and probably other receivers) as satellite
44. I have just tried turning on WAAS on my Geko 201 and giving it a
good view to the SW. It cycled through the potential WAAS satellites on
the two highest channels but did not find a signal when it got to 44. I
shall try again from the top of a local hill if I get a chance.

Quoted message said:

But as ever in this "automatic" world, I guess I'm too stupid to be
trusted with the responsibility of manually turning the test signals
off.

You may not be that stupid Paul but how many people claim that their
receivers are super accurate because the EPE or accuracy quoted by the
receiver is a low figure? Most people have no idea how their receiver
comes up with tat figure but they treat is as though it is factually
correct.

Likewise the average user might say EGNOS has made their receiver more
accurate because the EPE has gone down when in fact the opposite has
been shown to be true some of the time (the receiver assumes that the
corrections are good so accordingly reduces its estimate of error based
on that assumption).

--

Dominic Sexton
http://www.dscs.demon.co.uk/