"Geeze, unclip already!"

Quoted message said:

Hiya:
While walking about on Miramar Road saw one commuter cyclist take a
self-induced fall. Actor: Relatively young roadie on old lugged Trek
(chrome/replacement fork) wearing helmet and with goods in backpack (no
rack, no fenders), clipless pedals. Dude stopped for the light (which
had just turned red on him) in the appropriate lane, but didn't unclip.
He kept balancing and fighting wheelflop for a good fifteen seconds
until he fell over. I asked, he said he was fine.
Yeah, he's fine, but what does that steel cager who was hanging
thirty feet back (the typical "you can't trust cyclists in front of
you/let's not activate the induction coils for the traffic signal"
distance, I believe) now think about road cyclists' and commuters' bike
handling skills. What's with not wanting to unclip, anyway? I could see
it being a bigger deal with straps and buckles to yank on and slip out
of, but isn't one of the selling points of clipless easy entry and
exit?

Robert Leone [email hidden]

That's pretty judgemental. Seems he was working on his trackstand and
lost it. No big deal. If this is the worst behavior you saw seems like
a pretty mellow day.

Hi gds:
Working on one's trackstand is one thing -- but it seems a dumb
thing to do out on Miramar International Speedway. I am hypersensitive
about that particular intersection because I have seen a sheet-covered
body there before (motorcyclist ran a red light on his way to work....)

Robert Leone
gds wrote:
SNIPPING original post.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Robert Leone [email hidden]

That's pretty judgemental. Seems he was working on his trackstand and
lost it. No big deal. If this is the worst behavior you saw seems like
a pretty mellow day.

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

What's with not wanting to unclip, anyway? I could see
it being a bigger deal with straps and buckles to yank on and slip out
of, but isn't one of the selling points of clipless easy entry and
exit?

There is a learning curve to clipless, it's possible the struggle you
saw was a new user trying to unclip from unfamiliar pedals.

--
[email hidden] is Joshua Putnam
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/>
Updated Bicycle Touring Books List:
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/bike/tourbooks.html>

[email hidden] wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

What's with not wanting to unclip, anyway?

Track stands are tres chic!

But trying to track stand and falling is hilarious.

Quoted message said:

Hi gds:
Working on one's trackstand is one thing -- but it seems a dumb
thing to do out on Miramar International Speedway. I am hypersensitive
about that particular intersection because I have seen a sheet-covered
body there before (motorcyclist ran a red light on his way to work....)

I guess being stopped at red lights is my idea of exactly where one
would choose to do a track stand. (Of course not counting track racing)
Why is that dumb? Like most things in an activity like cycling it is a
skill to be mastered and can be fun when accomplished.

To me it seems a bit of a stretch to compare a motorcyclist running a
red light with a bicyclist doing a track stand while obeying the red
light. There could be circumstances where the track stand might be a
bad idea, for example if the cyclist was blocking a lane of traffic,
but usually the situation is that the cyclist is off to the side. And
since there is a red light and thus vehicular traffic was stopped even
the fall should have done nothing to create a dangerous situation--not
at all like blowing through a red light.

Quoted message said:

Hiya:
While walking about on Miramar Road saw one commuter cyclist take a
self-induced fall. Actor: Relatively young roadie on old lugged Trek
(chrome/replacement fork) wearing helmet and with goods in backpack (no
rack, no fenders), clipless pedals. Dude stopped for the light (which
had just turned red on him) in the appropriate lane, but didn't unclip.
He kept balancing and fighting wheelflop for a good fifteen seconds
until he fell over. I asked, he said he was fine.
Yeah, he's fine, but what does that steel cager who was hanging
thirty feet back (the typical "you can't trust cyclists in front of
you/let's not activate the induction coils for the traffic signal"
distance, I believe) now think about road cyclists' and commuters' bike
handling skills.

Who cares?

<[email hidden]> wrote: (clip) Yeah, he's fine, but what does that
steel cager who was hanging thirty feet back (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Then GDS wrote: (clip) Why is that dumb? Like most things in an activity
like cycling it is a
skill to be mastered and can be fun when accomplished. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Isn't it obvious? Falling off your bike in a lane of traffic is not the
best thing to do. It should be possible to practice this sort of things
when there are no cars nearby. Suppose the driver of the following car had
been day dreaming, and just started up? Suppose someone had changed lanes,
not seeing the downed rider? Or, suppose, as was actually the case, nothing
happened. Still, the driver saw this cyclist as an inept nuisance, and our
standing in the community was dimished ever so slightly.

Leo Lichtman said:

<[email hidden]> wrote: (clip) Yeah, he's fine, but what does that
steel cager who was hanging thirty feet back (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Then GDS wrote: (clip) Why is that dumb? Like most things in an activity
like cycling it is a
skill to be mastered and can be fun when accomplished. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Isn't it obvious? Falling off your bike in a lane of traffic is not the
best thing to do. It should be possible to practice this sort of things
when there are no cars nearby. Suppose the driver of the following car had
been day dreaming, and just started up? Suppose someone had changed lanes,
not seeing the downed rider? Or, suppose, as was actually the case, nothing
happened. Still, the driver saw this cyclist as an inept nuisance, and our
standing in the community was dimished ever so slightly.

Not to beat a dead horse but the OP stated that this was all happening
in the appropriate lane.

So, my take on the situation is that if the cyclist was in the
appropriate place then it was also appropriate to do a track stand.
Again, this was a case of folks stopped at a red light. If the motorist
behind lost attention to the point of just running over a fallen
cyclist my bet would be that he would also run over an upright cyclist.

There are all sorts of dangerous actions and poor judgements that are
done by cyclists, but doing a track stand (successfully or not) in the
appropriate lane while stopped at a red light does not make my list.

Well, I've made way too many posts on this non topic.

"Leo Lichtman" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Still, the driver saw this cyclist as an inept nuisance, and our
standing in the community was dimished ever so slightly.

You have no real knowledge of what the driver thought unless he or she told
you. You're projecting.

Interesting post. I was driving down a narrow and busy two-lane road
(opposing traffic) the other day and came to a light. In the other lane,
stopped at the light, I saw a young roadie peacock doing the unclipped
balancing act, while waiting for the light to change. Fortunately for him,
he managed it, but I could not help but think how irresponsible it was for
him to be doing that in all that traffic. Had the fallen over right before
the light changed, there would have been some major hassle. Frankly, I was
shocked and wanted to go [censored] slap the kid.

Or, maybe I'm just [censored] 'cause I can't (won't) do it.

[email hidden] wrote:
:: Hiya:
:: While walking about on Miramar Road saw one commuter cyclist take a
:: self-induced fall. Actor: Relatively young roadie on old lugged Trek
:: (chrome/replacement fork) wearing helmet and with goods in backpack
:: (no rack, no fenders), clipless pedals. Dude stopped for the light
:: (which had just turned red on him) in the appropriate lane, but
:: didn't unclip. He kept balancing and fighting wheelflop for a good
:: fifteen seconds until he fell over. I asked, he said he was fine.
:: Yeah, he's fine, but what does that steel cager who was hanging
:: thirty feet back (the typical "you can't trust cyclists in front of
:: you/let's not activate the induction coils for the traffic signal"
:: distance, I believe) now think about road cyclists' and commuters'
:: bike handling skills. What's with not wanting to unclip, anyway? I
:: could see it being a bigger deal with straps and buckles to yank on
:: and slip out of, but isn't one of the selling points of clipless
:: easy entry and exit?
::
:: Robert Leone [email hidden]

gds wrote:
:: [email hidden] wrote:
::: Hi gds:
::: Working on one's trackstand is one thing -- but it seems a dumb
::: thing to do out on Miramar International Speedway. I am
::: hypersensitive about that particular intersection because I have
::: seen a sheet-covered body there before (motorcyclist ran a red
::: light on his way to work....)
:::
:: I guess being stopped at red lights is my idea of exactly where one
:: would choose to do a track stand. (Of course not counting track
:: racing) Why is that dumb? Like most things in an activity like
:: cycling it is a skill to be mastered and can be fun when
:: accomplished.
::
:: To me it seems a bit of a stretch to compare a motorcyclist running a
:: red light with a bicyclist doing a track stand while obeying the red
:: light. There could be circumstances where the track stand might be a
:: bad idea, for example if the cyclist was blocking a lane of traffic,
:: but usually the situation is that the cyclist is off to the side. And
:: since there is a red light and thus vehicular traffic was stopped
:: even the fall should have done nothing to create a dangerous
:: situation--not at all like blowing through a red light.

I think falling over at a light and making motorist wait unnecessarily is
not acceptable. And if the lane are narrow so that cars can't get by, it can
be dangerous. Furthermore, it's unncessary. It makes more energy than
simply unclipping.

Joshua Putnam wrote:
:: In article <[email hidden]>,
:: [email hidden] says...
::: What's with not wanting to unclip, anyway? I could see
::: it being a bigger deal with straps and buckles to yank on and slip
::: out of, but isn't one of the selling points of clipless easy entry
::: and exit?
::
:: There is a learning curve to clipless, it's possible the struggle you
:: saw was a new user trying to unclip from unfamiliar pedals.

Based on my experience, that's hard to believe.

On 13 Jun 2006 09:37:43 -0700, "gds" <[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

To me it seems a bit of a stretch to compare a motorcyclist running a
red light with a bicyclist doing a track stand while obeying the red
light.

That's a point, however it should also be noted that the cyclist was
in a left turn lane, ergo in the middle of the street in an area that
may be exposed to close cross traffic from cars turning left from the
street on the cyclist's right. This isn't *my* idea of a safe place
to do something with a significant likelihood of resulting in a fall.

Quoted message said:

There could be circumstances where the track stand might be a
bad idea, for example if the cyclist was blocking a lane of traffic,

As stated by the OP, that could be considered a factor here.

--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

gds wrote:
:: Leo Lichtman wrote:
::: <[email hidden]> wrote: (clip) Yeah, he's fine, but what does
::: that steel cager who was hanging thirty feet back (clip)
::: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
::: Then GDS wrote: (clip) Why is that dumb? Like most things in an
::: activity like cycling it is a
::: skill to be mastered and can be fun when accomplished. (clip)
::: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
::: Isn't it obvious? Falling off your bike in a lane of traffic is
::: not the best thing to do. It should be possible to practice this
::: sort of things when there are no cars nearby. Suppose the driver
::: of the following car had been day dreaming, and just started up?
::: Suppose someone had changed lanes, not seeing the downed rider?
::: Or, suppose, as was actually the case, nothing happened. Still,
::: the driver saw this cyclist as an inept nuisance, and our standing
::: in the community was dimished ever so slightly.
::
:: Not to beat a dead horse but the OP stated that this was all
:: happening in the appropriate lane.
::
:: So, my take on the situation is that if the cyclist was in the
:: appropriate place then it was also appropriate to do a track stand.
:: Again, this was a case of folks stopped at a red light. If the
:: motorist behind lost attention to the point of just running over a
:: fallen cyclist my bet would be that he would also run over an
:: upright cyclist.

Yeah, he's there one instant and missing the next. An inattentive driver
might thought the guy had turned.

::
:: There are all sorts of dangerous actions and poor judgements that are
:: done by cyclists, but doing a track stand (successfully or not) in
:: the appropriate lane while stopped at a red light does not make my
:: list.
::
:: Well, I've made way too many posts on this non topic.

It's a valid topic.

Werehatrack said:

On 13 Jun 2006 09:37:43 -0700, "gds" <[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

To me it seems a bit of a stretch to compare a motorcyclist running a
red light with a bicyclist doing a track stand while obeying the red
light.

That's a point, however it should also be noted that the cyclist was
in a left turn lane, ergo in the middle of the street in an area that
may be exposed to close cross traffic from cars turning left from the
street on the cyclist's right. This isn't *my* idea of a safe place
to do something with a significant likelihood of resulting in a fall.

Quoted message said:

There could be circumstances where the track stand might be a
bad idea, for example if the cyclist was blocking a lane of traffic,

As stated by the OP, that could be considered a factor here.

--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

OK one more beating of this dead horse.
First, no one knows if the rider was trying a track stand or just
having trouble getting out of his pedals.
Second, IF he was trying a track stand no one knows if he was
accomplished at this or not. Perhaps he had been successfull on track
stands for eleven years and 1000 attempts and this was his first fall
since 1995. Perhaps not.

Track stands are NOT intrinsically unsafe. And they are not
intrinsically unsafe even in a left hand lane. I know lots of riders
who regularly do track stands and I have never witnessed a fall.
Comparing doing a track stand to running a red light is really a poor
comparison if the idea is to express risk.

The idea that all sorts of things could have happened is true. But all
sorts of things can always happen. Simply listing all the things that
could go wrong is particularly helpfull without some sense of the
probability of them happening.

As to inconviencing the motorist waiting at the red light - I think
even that is overblown. My guess is that upon witnessing the slow
motion fall the motorist was more amused than angered. But then I'm
projecting my prejudices as others are projecting theirs.

BTW the best post in this thread is Peter's. "Who cares?"

Dear Werehatrack:
OPPS -- if I gave the impression the cyclist was in a left turn
lane, I apologize. The cyclist was in the right-most through lane by a
few inches, with the right turn lane at his elbow. Large articulated
trucks and cement mixers frequently turn right at that intersection.

Robert Leone

Werehatrack wrote:
SNIP.

Quoted message said:

That's a point, however it should also be noted that the cyclist was
in a left turn lane, ergo in the middle of the street in an area that
may be exposed to close cross traffic from cars turning left from the
street on the cyclist's right. This isn't *my* idea of a safe place
to do something with a significant likelihood of resulting in a fall.

Quoted message said:

There could be circumstances where the track stand might be a
bad idea, for example if the cyclist was blocking a lane of traffic,

As stated by the OP, that could be considered a factor here.

--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Quoted message said:

While walking about on Miramar Road saw one commuter cyclist take a
self-induced fall. Actor: Relatively young roadie on old lugged Trek
(chrome/replacement fork) wearing helmet and with goods in backpack (no
rack, no fenders), clipless pedals. Dude stopped for the light (which
had just turned red on him) in the appropriate lane, but didn't unclip.
He kept balancing and fighting wheelflop for a good fifteen seconds
until he fell over.

This is one of the best things about riding a recumbent. Drivers don't
automatically classify me as another idiot cyclist like the one above.
gds: is a busy intersection an appropriate place to practice circus
tricks? If so, is it OK if cars and motorcycles practice power slides
and wheelies there? And you never answered the OPs question: What IS
so hard about unclipping? And what about those guys who can't even do
a track stand and start riding circles in their lane at a red light?
All of these behaviors are very difficult for the non-cyclist to
understand, and definitely contribute to motorists disregard for
cyclist's rights.

Mort

mort said:

This is one of the best things about riding a recumbent. Drivers don't
automatically classify me as another idiot cyclist like the one above.
gds: is a busy intersection an appropriate place to practice circus
tricks?

See my post above. You and I have no idea from the OP's info what he
was doing. He may have simply been ynable to unclip. He may not have
been practicing track stand. However, he might also be proficient at
them and just had a bad event. That is called an accident and is not
necessarily the result of irresponsible behavior.

If so, is it OK if cars and motorcycles practice power slides

Quoted message said:

and wheelies there?

And here is an argumentum ad absurdum. How can you compare a track
stand done at 0 mph in hte right edge of the proper lane to what you
suggest. Why didn't you throw in pilots practicing emergency landings
at the intersection.

And you never answered the OPs question: What IS

Quoted message said:

so hard about unclipping?

That may not be the relevant question. If in fact the guy fell because
he had trouble unclipping (as almost everyone has done at one time or
another) then that answers your question directly. If he was proficient
at track stands and simply had a bad event then the question is
irrelevant.

And what about those guys who can't even do

Quoted message said:

a track stand and start riding circles in their lane at a red light?
All of these behaviors are very difficult for the non-cyclist to
understand, and definitely contribute to motorists disregard for
cyclist's rights.

Another argument in the absurd. Standing still on a bike at the right
edge of the proper lane is not at all comparable to riding in circles.

I'm going to bet that all this negativity comes mostly from folks who
have tried track stands and can't do them. To some of us they are just
another cycling skill to be mastered.

gds wrote:
:: mort wrote:
:::
::: This is one of the best things about riding a recumbent. Drivers
::: don't automatically classify me as another idiot cyclist like the
::: one above. gds: is a busy intersection an appropriate place to
::: practice circus tricks?
::
:: See my post above. You and I have no idea from the OP's info what he
:: was doing. He may have simply been ynable to unclip. He may not have
:: been practicing track stand. However, he might also be proficient at
:: them and just had a bad event. That is called an accident and is not
:: necessarily the result of irresponsible behavior.

I find it hard to believe that he was simply unable to unclip from the OPs
description. 15 sections is a long time for someone to stay upright without
trying....

::
::
::
:: If so, is it OK if cars and motorcycles practice power slides
::: and wheelies there?
::
:: And here is an argumentum ad absurdum. How can you compare a track
:: stand done at 0 mph in hte right edge of the proper lane to what you
:: suggest. Why didn't you throw in pilots practicing emergency landings
:: at the intersection.
::
::
::
:: And you never answered the OPs question: What IS
::: so hard about unclipping?
::
:: That may not be the relevant question. If in fact the guy fell
:: because he had trouble unclipping (as almost everyone has done at
:: one time or another) then that answers your question directly. If he
:: was proficient at track stands and simply had a bad event then the
:: question is irrelevant.

Everytime I've gone down it's been right after I found myself still clipped
in when I thought I was unclipped. There was not 15 s of wheelflop. I think
a cyclist could tell if he were trying to unclip and could not, too.

::
:: I'm going to bet that all this negativity comes mostly from folks who
:: have tried track stands and can't do them. To some of us they are
:: just another cycling skill to be mastered.

Fine. Just make sure you don't ever fall on a narrow road with lots of
traffic trying to get by. I don't think anyone would care.