GEAR: Winter backpacking pants?

Peewiglet said:

What would people recommend for winter backpacking trousers? I'm
planning to use them under a waterproof (if necessary) so I'm not
looking for Paramo, because I've concluded that if Paramo gets soaked
during the day it won't dry overnight in a damp tent.

So, what's warm, snuggly, water repellent and light, and packs up
small? I've got some v. nice North Face zip-offs, but they're not
snuggly at all. Other than those it's about 10 years since I last
bought walking trousers, so I'm not sure what to look at.

These are nice and snuggly
<http://www.rohan.co.uk/ProductDetails.aspx?ProdID=01205_____&CurrentCategory=Home%7cWomens%7cWomensClimate%7cWomensClimateCold>

I keep meaning to get round to making an excuse to buy the men's
version.
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

* The air of uk.rec.walking was filled with the delicate perfume
* of violets, as Peewiglet <[email hidden]> descended on a shaft
* of golden sunlight, and announced:

Quoted message said:

What would people recommend for winter backpacking trousers? I'm
planning to use them under a waterproof (if necessary) so I'm not
looking for Paramo, because I've concluded that if Paramo gets soaked
during the day it won't dry overnight in a damp tent.

I've used Ron Hill Tracksters for a long time. They're windproof and they
can get wet and your legs still feel warm and dry. The main gripe I have
with them is that they don't have a pocket for a nose tissue - when I start
getting high and cold my nose keeps running! Having said all that, I bought
in a Rohan sale recently some Uplanders and they seem great. I don't know
how they'll perform in the wet, though.

Regards: Jim Ford

Peewiglet said:

What would people recommend for winter backpacking trousers? I'm
planning to use them under a waterproof (if necessary)...

I find the layer system works best, just as on the top half, and I wouldn't recommend trousers of
any kind at any time. I second Ron Hill tracksters as the outer layer, the latest incarnation has a
DWR coating that is supposed to repel water to some extent. For winter, the best next-to-skin layer
we have found by far is Powerstretch tights - ours are the Lowe Alpine version. These hug the skin
and are superbly warm and wicking, and give complete freedom of movement like the Tracksters. In
rain or a strong icy wind, we use ME Drilite overtrousers over them - very light and pack small.

Regards

-- GeoffC

On 4/12/04 11:44 am, in article [email hidden],

Peewiglet said:

What would people recommend for winter backpacking trousers? I'm
planning to use them under a waterproof (if necessary) so I'm not
looking for Paramo, because I've concluded that if Paramo gets soaked
during the day it won't dry overnight in a damp tent.

Paramo will dry out very easily in the tent overnight! Indeed, it usually
dries within a few minutes of being out of the rain!

--
Andy Howell
Birmingham, UK

"Peewiglet" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

What would people recommend for winter backpacking trousers?

[snip]

Quoted message said:

So, what's warm, snuggly, water repellent and light, and packs up
small?

Someone mentioned Powerstretch tights. I don't have any myself but knowing
a girl who does I can vouch for them being very snuggly from the outside.
Don't think they'd be very water repellent though unless you treated them
with something.

AndyP said:

"Peewiglet" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

What would people recommend for winter backpacking trousers?

[snip]

Quoted message said:

So, what's warm, snuggly, water repellent and light, and packs up
small?

Someone mentioned Powerstretch tights. I don't have any myself but knowing
a girl who does I can vouch for them being very snuggly from the outside.
Don't think they'd be very water repellent though unless you treated them
with something.

Mountain Hardware do some very tough, two ply, stretch tights. Very
comfortable and very warm.

--
Andy Howell
Birmingham, UK

On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 12:33:57 +0000, Phil Cook
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

These are nice and snuggly
<http://www.rohan.co.uk/ProductDetails.aspx?ProdID=01205_____&CurrentCategory=Home%7cWomens%7cWomensClimate%7cWomensClimateCold>

I keep meaning to get round to making an excuse to buy the men's
version.

Thanks! I'll take a look.

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \

On 4 Dec 2004 14:34:35 GMT, Jim Ford <[email hidden]>
wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

I've used Ron Hill Tracksters for a long time. They're windproof and they
can get wet and your legs still feel warm and dry. The main gripe I have
with them is that they don't have a pocket for a nose tissue - when I start
getting high and cold my nose keeps running! Having said all that, I bought
in a Rohan sale recently some Uplanders and they seem great. I don't know
how they'll perform in the wet, though.

I like the Ron Hills - I've been using them for ages too - but I'd
like something a bit snugglier for really cold weather, I think. I
always have some Ron Hills in my sack for emergency/spare/bed
whatever, though.

I'll keep an eye out for the Uplanders - thanks for the tip.

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \

On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 17:18:54 +0000, GeoffC <[email hidden]>
wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

For winter, the best next-to-skin layer
we have found by far is Powerstretch tights - ours are the Lowe Alpine version. These hug the skin
and are superbly warm and wicking, and give complete freedom of movement like the Tracksters. In
rain or a strong icy wind, we use ME Drilite overtrousers over them - very light and pack small.

Many thanks - I'll go and take a look.

Are the tights tight or fairly loose?

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \

Peewiglet said:

On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 17:18:54 +0000, GeoffC <[email hidden]>
wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

For winter, the best next-to-skin layer
we have found by far is Powerstretch tights - ours are the Lowe Alpine version. These hug the skin
and are superbly warm and wicking, and give complete freedom of movement like the Tracksters. In
rain or a strong icy wind, we use ME Drilite overtrousers over them - very light and pack small.

Many thanks - I'll go and take a look.

Are the tights tight or fairly loose?

The Powerstretch are tight and figure-hugging, one of the reasons they work so well, and by
themselves they look a bit Max Wall-ish. I didn't make it clear that we wear the Ron Hill tracksters
over them as a second layer in winter, which add more warmth and can repel light showers (and look
better!).

Regards

-- GeoffC

On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 20:33:28 GMT, Andy Howell

andy.howellNOSPAM@ecotrendDOTorgDOTuk said:

On 4/12/04 11:44 am, in article [email hidden],

Peewiglet said:

What would people recommend for winter backpacking trousers? I'm
planning to use them under a waterproof (if necessary) so I'm not
looking for Paramo, because I've concluded that if Paramo gets soaked
during the day it won't dry overnight in a damp tent.

Paramo will dry out very easily in the tent overnight! Indeed, it usually
dries within a few minutes of being out of the rain!

If that's right then what I'd definitely get is a pair of Cascada
trousers, and then a Velez Smock, but I've held back from buying them
so far because...

I've been reading up on Paramo stuff for a couple of months, and what
I've understood is that it dries out when wet through continued
movement. What I don't see, though, is how it can dry out if I get to
the tent in pouring rain, put up the tent, get into the tent and take
off the Paramo, as I would need to do to avoid getting cold. I've
tried to get an answer to this from people who've used it for
backpacking in rain, but no-one has answered, and so I'm not sure that
people are actually using it for that.

I've rung a couple of Paramo suppliers, who immediately told me there
wasn't a problem, but when I pressed them - because it's expensive,
and I can't afford to just buy some on spec' - it turned out that
they'd never used it when backpacking, and when I pressed them further
about whether it would dry out they were no longer so sure. I was also
a bit surprised, and very unimpressed, when they invariably started
talking about "plastic bags"... I wanted to hear about whether Paramo
was likely to work for me when backpacking, not an attack on other
sorts of fabrics.

I asked on OM too, but didn't get an anwer there either. I think
perhaps they're currently all fed up with Paramo discussions
descending almost immediately into rows.

So, in the end I concluded that if I get Paramo stuff soaking wet,
pitch my tent and take off the Paramo, it's not going to dry
overnight. Are you really sure it will? Because Paramo purports to
take the place of both mid-layer and waterproof, I wouldn't have
anything else to wear from as soon as I dress for breakfast until I
move off. That seems to me to be a long time to be wearing cold, wet
clothing, if it would atually be cold and wet. If it will really dry
out, though - and slightly damp would be acceptable: it doesn't need
to be bone dry - then I'd buy it like a shot.

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \

On Sun, 5 Dec 2004 09:38:54 -0000, "AndyP"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Someone mentioned Powerstretch tights. I don't have any myself but knowing
a girl who does I can vouch for them being very snuggly from the outside.
Don't think they'd be very water repellent though unless you treated them
with something.

Tres bon, thanks. I'll take a look 🙂

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \

On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 11:57:47 +0000, GeoffC <[email hidden]>
wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Are the tights tight or fairly loose?

The Powerstretch are tight and figure-hugging, one of the reasons they work so well, and by
themselves they look a bit Max Wall-ish. I didn't make it clear that we wear the Ron Hill tracksters
over them as a second layer in winter, which add more warmth and can repel light showers (and look
better!).

Thanks - I'll take a look.

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \

In message <[email hidden]>, Peewiglet
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 20:33:28 GMT, Andy Howell

andy.howellNOSPAM@ecotrendDOTorgDOTuk said:

On 4/12/04 11:44 am, in article [email hidden],

Peewiglet said:

What would people recommend for winter backpacking trousers? I'm
planning to use them under a waterproof (if necessary) so I'm not
looking for Paramo, because I've concluded that if Paramo gets soaked
during the day it won't dry overnight in a damp tent.

Paramo will dry out very easily in the tent overnight! Indeed, it usually
dries within a few minutes of being out of the rain!

If that's right then what I'd definitely get is a pair of Cascada
trousers, and then a Velez Smock, but I've held back from buying them
so far because...

I've been reading up on Paramo stuff for a couple of months, and what
I've understood is that it dries out when wet through continued
movement. What I don't see, though, is how it can dry out if I get to
the tent in pouring rain, put up the tent, get into the tent and take
off the Paramo, as I would need to do to avoid getting cold. I've
tried to get an answer to this from people who've used it for
backpacking in rain, but no-one has answered, and so I'm not sure that
people are actually using it for that.

I usually keep Paramo garments on in the tent and they dry very quickly.
It doesn't feel cold when wet.

I've also put wet Paramo trousers on in the morning and they feel fine
very quickly.

Quoted message said:

I've rung a couple of Paramo suppliers, who immediately told me there
wasn't a problem, but when I pressed them - because it's expensive,
and I can't afford to just buy some on spec' - it turned out that
they'd never used it when backpacking, and when I pressed them further
about whether it would dry out they were no longer so sure. I was also
a bit surprised, and very unimpressed, when they invariably started
talking about "plastic bags"... I wanted to hear about whether Paramo
was likely to work for me when backpacking, not an attack on other
sorts of fabrics.

I asked on OM too, but didn't get an anwer there either. I think
perhaps they're currently all fed up with Paramo discussions
descending almost immediately into rows.

So, in the end I concluded that if I get Paramo stuff soaking wet,
pitch my tent and take off the Paramo, it's not going to dry
overnight. Are you really sure it will?

It won't dry overnight but I don't find that a problem as it doesn't
feel cold when damp.

Quoted message said:

Because Paramo purports to
take the place of both mid-layer and waterproof, I wouldn't have
anything else to wear from as soon as I dress for breakfast until I
move off.

If it's cold I stay in the sleeping bag while I have breakfast!

Quoted message said:

That seems to me to be a long time to be wearing cold, wet
clothing, if it would atually be cold and wet. If it will really dry
out, though - and slightly damp would be acceptable: it doesn't need
to be bone dry - then I'd buy it like a shot.

On Sun, 5 Dec 2004 12:57:46 +0000, Chris Townsend
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've been reading up on Paramo stuff for a couple of months, and what
I've understood is that it dries out when wet through continued
movement. What I don't see, though, is how it can dry out if I get to
the tent in pouring rain, put up the tent, get into the tent and take
off the Paramo, as I would need to do to avoid getting cold. I've
tried to get an answer to this from people who've used it for
backpacking in rain, but no-one has answered, and so I'm not sure that
people are actually using it for that.

I usually keep Paramo garments on in the tent and they dry very quickly.
It doesn't feel cold when wet.

I've also put wet Paramo trousers on in the morning and they feel fine
very quickly.

[...]

Quoted message said:

It won't dry overnight but I don't find that a problem as it doesn't
feel cold when damp. [...]

Thanks v. much, Chris - that's enormously helpful. Cascada trousers it
is, then :-))

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

"Peewiglet" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

What would people recommend for winter backpacking trousers?

[snip]

Quoted message said:

So, what's warm, snuggly, water repellent and light, and packs up
small?

Someone mentioned Powerstretch tights. I don't have any myself but knowing
a girl who does I can vouch for them being very snuggly from the outside.
Don't think they'd be very water repellent though unless you treated them
with something.

They're not water repellant at all, but you don't really notice
when they get wet. Since they're figure hugging, they're kept
warm (and therefore dry very quickly once the rain stops), and
the fabric keeps the water away from the skin.

Peewiglet said:

What would people recommend for winter backpacking trousers?

Two different questions there, P-W...

For pants, baselayer wicking briefs in whatever fabric you find most
comfortable. These just work *sooooooo* much better than M&S cotton
ones, some of the best money you can spend on gear IMHO.

Quoted message said:

planning to use them under a waterproof (if necessary) so I'm not
looking for Paramo, because I've concluded that if Paramo gets soaked
during the day it won't dry overnight in a damp tent.

But Paramo is waterproof, so it won't get soaked during the day, and if
it does it stands as good a chance of drying out as anything else. So
I'd say you shouldn't dismiss it at this point.

Quoted message said:

So, what's warm, snuggly, water repellent and light, and packs up
small?

Schoeller Dryskin is the stuff, various folk make things out of it. Not
cheap, but still good value for money. Because it's stretchy it moves
with you so if it does get soaked it doesn't slap against your thighs
like a dead fish every step. Fairly bombproof and windproof as well as
warm. Also, Polartec Thermal Pro is stretchy, snug and near as dammit
windproof.
Not so tough or windproof is stretch fleece like Powerstretch, available
as tights of salopettes. These work really well IMHO, and a light pair
of overtrousers will windproof them if the weather does turn really
disgusting.

I wear ME powerfleece tights as my default winter walking legwear, if
it's a more serious trip I'll go for the Thermal Pro/Schoeller
salopettes (MEC ones, so that model not easily available here,
unfortunately). Salopettes are better if it's really cold, but make
sure you can deploy easily when necessary!

Quoted message said:

Other than those it's about 10 years since I last
bought walking trousers, so I'm not sure what to look at.

Most "walking trousers" appear to assume that you want half a dozen
pockets, but you don't. More pockets means slower to dry around the
hips, more weight, less breathability and more expense. Many pockets
are useful for travel, but for walking you want your legs as free to
move as possible, which means (a) nothing much in pockets and (b) either
a baggy fit or stretchy material. I much favour the latter, as it means
a more thermally efficient garment that's usually lighter (closer cut
means less material), holds less water, dries quicker and doesn't
flutter in strong winds. Downside is often less windproof, but not
always: Schoeller and Thermal Pro are near enough windproof as makes no
odds.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

In article <[email hidden]>, Peewiglet
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

On 4 Dec 2004 14:34:35 GMT, Jim Ford <[email hidden]>
wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

I've used Ron Hill Tracksters for a long time. They're windproof and they
can get wet and your legs still feel warm and dry. The main gripe I have
with them is that they don't have a pocket for a nose tissue - when I start
getting high and cold my nose keeps running! Having said all that, I bought
in a Rohan sale recently some Uplanders and they seem great. I don't know
how they'll perform in the wet, though.

I like the Ron Hills - I've been using them for ages too - but I'd
like something a bit snugglier for really cold weather, I think. I
always have some Ron Hills in my sack for emergency/spare/bed
whatever, though.

I have a pair of heavier Tracksters that I use when it is cold. They
were called the Trackster Trek and have two zipped pockets. It seems
they do models called the New Trek and Women's Trek now:

http://www.ronhill.com/tracksters/main.html

If it is even colder the ME powerfleece tights come out

http://www.mountain-equipment.co.uk/fleeces/powerfleece.html

--

Dominic Sexton
http://www.dscs.demon.co.uk/

I noticed that Message-ID: <[email hidden]>
from Peewiglet contained the following:

Quoted message said:

Thanks v. much, Chris - that's enormously helpful. Cascada trousers it
is, then :-))

Let me know how you get on. When I tried a pair on, they felt as if
they would slip down rather a lot because it's a slippy kind of
material. I think it's a shame they don't come with braces, for those
of us who lack hips... ;-)

--
Geoff Berrow (put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs http://www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker/