GCN Myths!

Forgot to tell why GCN favored OOS intervals during a long climb, they said it switches the body to different sets of muscle groups to help relieve your other leg muscles, relieves the back (spine) and helps avoid or delay saddle soreness.

I personally found none of that is true except for delaying saddle soreness. Worse, it usually causes my quads to bonk or get cramps later in the ride. I only found OOS to be useful in sprint and climbing finishes and only doing it within the final few miles of a long ride or during HIIT sessions (if you're only doing HIIT session the whole day without any long continuous riding on the bike or trainer).

Another myth is maintaining high pedaling cadence or ~90 rpm! GCN claims it's easier on the joints and helps avoid muscle fatigue for longer. I train in both low and high cadence. From 60 rpm mashing to 160 rpm seated sprints. I've done my favorite 70 mile mountain ride in both 60 rpm and 80 rpm average climbing cadence. Let's just say I have good range of cadence to be able to adjust my cadence depending on road conditions.

But the opposite is happening with me instead! My legs are a little more tired and sore when I did long climbs at higher cadence! It made no difference to my joints at all between doing an entire long climb in 60 rpm cadence or in 80 rpm cadence. No issues in either cadence.

So I found lower cadence kept my legs fresh for longer in long climbs. It also kept my heart beating strong for longer (kept heart rates lower than compared to spinning) I did find some advantages to spinning in climbs but it wasn't related to muscle fatigue at all but rather in improved lower back comfort and helped to avoid getting blisters / chaffing on your feet during long rides with long climbs.

Just for the sake of avoiding blisters on my feet and keeping my back comfy, I prefer to spin easier gears on long climbs at the cost of slightly more sore legs after a long ride. Better than having blistered feet and sore back I guess. I prefer cruising in the flats in big gears to help unload my arms when I'm riding in low, aero posture. GCN did not mention these things though and just focused their attention on the legs which I did not found accurate either.

The timed events I've done involve the first 60 miles of climbing to gain 10k ft.

I rarely stand, maybe to adjust my shorts.

I heard watching tour de france videos that guyswho had the power long Jan Ulrich didn't need to stand. Guys who needed a little extra power had yo stand.

I'm good remaining seated over 12 000 ft of climbing.

Mr. Beanz said:

The timed events I've done involve the first 60 miles of climbing to gain 10k ft.

I rarely stand, maybe to adjust my shorts.

I heard watching tour de france videos that guyswho had the power long Jan Ulrich didn't need to stand. Guys who needed a little extra power had yo stand.

I'm good remaining seated over 12 000 ft of climbing.

Ulrich and Indurain are both classified as "all-rounders" - strong on climbing, flats, TT, and sprinting!o_O Indurain hated standing except when attacking in the final segments of a climb. Otherwise, glued to the saddle the vast majority of the time.

I stopped standing when it dawned on me I make better time on climbs if I never stood at all. Just have to deal with initial discomfort and my body adapted eventually.

Now, it's the opposite for me. I remain seated on climbs and only stood on descents to "air brake" and to stretch and relax my whole body.

cobbwheels said:

Ulrich and Indurain are both classified as "all-rounders" - strong on climbing, flats, TT, and sprinting!o_O Indurain hated standing except when attacking in the final segments of a climb. Otherwise, glued to the saddle the vast majority of the time.

I stopped standing when it dawned on me I make better time on climbs if I never stood at all. Just have to deal with initial discomfort and my body adapted eventually.

Now, it's the opposite for me. I remain seated on climbs and only stood on descents to "air brake" and to stretch and relax my whole body.

I have buds that are 60 to 70 pounds lighter than I. They will stand to sprint up little climbs. I remain seated. I know I'll catch them easily on flats and downhills so I control my efforts. That it on a short climb.

On a 20 mile 5, 000 ft climb, they stand to pull away at times while I pace myself. I always eventually catch them as their legs tire while standing. My legs remain fresh without the unneeded exertion. Eventually their legs ture and I pull away finishing the climbs 29 minutes ahead at times. 😄

Mr. Beanz said:

I have buds that are 60 to 70 pounds lighter than I. They will stand to sprint up little climbs. I remain seated. I know I'll catch them easily on flats and downhills so I control my efforts. That it on a short climb.

On a 20 mile 5, 000 ft climb, they stand to pull away at times while I pace myself. I always eventually catch them as their legs tire while standing. My legs remain fresh without the unneeded exertion. Eventually their legs ture and I pull away finishing the climbs 29 minutes ahead at times. 😄

The RPE (perceived effort) is usually higher when pedaling seated at high intensity but riders often pay a lot more cost when standing because standing also requires you spend additional energy just keeping your weight centered on the downstroke pedal which requires you to sway the bike left and right and swaying the bike isn't a zero effort task even if your bike is as light as a feather! In fact, the effort is relatively significant and effort level is mostly dictated by your body weight, not the weight of your bike.

Standing also forces you to load your posture muscles even more. Many riders ignore the importance of posture muscles like the muscles on your back. If your back is shot, this will force over-recruitment of the quads and eventually your quads will bonk soon and if the quads bonk, it's over!

That is really one of the reasons to try to pedal at higher cadence. Not to save your legs or your knees but to save your back. Knee problems is more a bike fit and pedaling technique problem, not because of pedaling big gears at low cadence. GCN don't really explain it what way.

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I stand and pedal for many reasons. Could be that 20 percent grade with a headwind in my 30" low gear on the road bike. Could be Im so fatigue Im ready to get off the bike , and using my body weight to force the cranks down.
Stand if trying to close gap on other riders or create one , and use when at rest on flat or climb.
I recruit a lot of upper body strength , I believe that gets the pedals moving when needed.

Sure I am that guy you will pass , or pass over again . I'm simply not able to meter my performance over longer periods. I've no long game really.

Change bikes & a different story , on my hybrid I will remain seated most always as there is always tons of extra low gear. Spinning is great but moving inches of gear is getting you up the hill faster at times. Really rider and situation dependent IMHO.

Fourlegsgood2wheelsbad said:

I stand and pedal for many reasons. Could be that 20 percent grade with a headwind in my 30" low gear on the road bike. Could be Im so fatigue Im ready to get off the bike , and using my body weight to force the cranks down.
Stand if trying to close gap on other riders or create one , and use when at rest on flat or climb.
I recruit a lot of upper body strength , I believe that gets the pedals moving when needed.

Sure I am that guy you will pass , or pass over again . I'm simply not able to meter my performance over longer periods. I've no long game really.

Change bikes & a different story , on my hybrid I will remain seated most always as there is always tons of extra low gear. Spinning is great but moving inches of gear is getting you up the hill faster at times. Really rider and situation dependent IMHO.

I also prefer to mash than spin even on very long continuous climbing but I do this almost entirely seated. The only times I would stand in a climb if I'm forced to slow down or stop and did not have time or even think to downshift due to traffic like motorists, other riders, and peds will force me to stand to get moving again then I immediately get back to the seat. Or the short steep corners at hairpins because I feel like I'm going to fall backward!

I don't have power meter, no heart rate meter, not even a computer on my bike! I pace long climbs entirely by feel and breathing.

I think were all unique in our needs and style. I'd favored running on the pedals , since youth .
Feels like a good run . Quite a few of those lately .

I'm trying to balance competitive running trail and asphalt , bodybuilding ,and cycling going on about a year without injury. It's training that all seems to contradict each other.

Cobbwheels that is interesting you do not need a computer for cycling . Sounds like you're dialed in with yourself .
My body is wired to lie to me , when I am HR based training always surprised when I think I am pushing it but am not. So I wear a garmin device .

Totally understand!

You might find it interesting when I'm mashing big gears on a climb while seated, my body movements and posture is very similar to my standing technique! I trained extensively in the standing technique for 10 months starting last year until early this year until I ceased doing it. It used to be the majority of my short weekday training between long weekend rides. It seems my standing technique was carried over to my seated technique but only during climbs. I still pedal quite differently on the flats and much smoother in comparison.

Last year, I've done long indoor trainings at tempo for months. It went as long as 1 hr and 30 minutes continuously in labored breathing and talking is difficult. The effort is totally constant, at least in feel and breathing rate. It got permanently etched in my mind and as long as I keep under that effort in long climbs and breathing easier, I'll be fine. Taught me a great deal in pacing efforts, particularly the long climbs.

In my last 80 mile ride with 5,500 ft of climbing, I did an experiment to pedal out of the saddle as often as I could or whenever I feel it's a good time to do so and keeping each interval under 10 seconds each.

Just trying to see if anything has changed as I've gotten stronger since the last I was doing it and my standing technique improved as well. For one thing, I did not bonk this time. The previous time I did it with lots of standing, I bonked. What else had changed, my legs feel less fatigued after the ride.

However, later in the ride, I feel like my quads might get cramps if I try to make the full 10 second standing interval so I cut the intervals to around 5 seconds. I did not get any cramps at any point in the ride but my quads are more sore than usual. However, my hamstrings and glutes are less sore and my legs feel less fatigued overall.

Note, when I'm pedaling out of the saddle, I don't try to raise my pace or close the gap whatever. I still try to maintain the same speed and avoid raising my heart rate if possible. It do it mainly to relieve whatever tension has accumulated.

The big question is would I keep doing it? Perhaps, I might and maybe for further experimentation for now. I was very marginally faster on this ride than my last one without standing, purely seated. Just a few minutes faster overall. Not much. Maybe standing had nothing to do with it but one thing for certain, it did not slowed me down. It was a decent way to break the monotony. Make it a little less boring on the long climb and makes the time seem to pass faster even though I'm not actually climbing faster. My back is a little sore as well.

The one possible problem, it pushed my quads to the brink of cramping. For someone who is less familiar interpreting muscular signals, they could easily bring their muscles past the limit and get cramping or worse, bonk.

I used to have the back problems often complained about as a reason that you have to stand. This was a continuous and ongoing problem until I started using a saddle with a split down the middle. This relieved the pressure on my prostate and ended the need to stand on climbs.

cyclintom said:

I used to have the back problems often complained about as a reason that you have to stand. This was a continuous and ongoing problem until I started using a saddle with a split down the middle. This relieved the pressure on my prostate and ended the need to stand on climbs.

All my saddles now have cutouts. Yet, I don't understand why traditional, no cutout round top saddle that really puts the pressure on the prostate is still popular today. It's even common among the pros.

You should know that saddles with flat top cross sections also works as well to relieve prostate pressure as cut out saddles. Wide saddles also have a tendency to relieve prostate pressure as long as you're not sliding towards the nose. Ironically, UCI doesn't put a limitation to saddle width and consequently, commuter-width saddles may be used in a race such as long races and if you needed extra comfort.

cobbwheels said:

All my saddles now have cutouts. Yet, I don't understand why traditional, no cutout round top saddle that really puts the pressure on the prostate is still popular today. It's even common among the pros.

You should know that saddles with flat top cross sections also works as well to relieve prostate pressure as cut out saddles. Wide saddles also have a tendency to relieve prostate pressure as long as you're not sliding towards the nose. Ironically, UCI doesn't put a limitation to saddle width and consequently, commuter-width saddles may be used in a race such as long races and if you needed extra comfort.

It all has to do with the human body and the shape and strength of the prostate area. I never went back after my first test of a cutout saddle but others don't seem to have the same problem. But when you see someone standing up and stretching their back in an arch, that is a person that needs a cutout.

cyclintom said:

It all has to do with the human body and the shape and strength of the prostate area. I never went back after my first test of a cutout saddle but others don't seem to have the same problem. But when you see someone standing up and stretching their back in an arch, that is a person that needs a cutout.

Before cutouts, I had numbness down there. It can be avoided by standing often.

When I switched to cutout, the initial problem was higher pressure on the sit bones. Blistering and chaffing, way more pain than just numbness in the nether regions! Padded shorts became a necessity.

Lately, I went for custom wide saddle with a large cutout but with thicker, softer foam. Seemed to have solved the sitbone pressure even if I only wear regular, non-padded shorts. I have so little skin fat, very lean and you can see how it can be a problem when it comes to saddle comfort.

The cutout-split gives some saddles a little flexibility in the center .
I can feel the split San Marco saddle on my road bike flex when the unexpected bump comes so fast you didn't raise off the saddle to dampen the impact. So the saddle is quite firm & narrow but flexes. My favorite saddle I'd ridden so far for road. My undersides were happy at the 3 hour mark and then some .

Fourlegsgood2wheelsbad said:

The cutout-split gives some saddles a little flexibility in the center .
I can feel the split San Marco saddle on my road bike flex when the unexpected bump comes so fast you didn't raise off the saddle to dampen the impact. So the saddle is quite firm & narrow but flexes. My favorite saddle I'd ridden so far for road. My undersides were happy at the 3 hour mark and then some .

I noticed that saddles made in the last couple of years are being made with thinner and softer plastic material making them more flexible and lighter and really flexible enough to soak in the bumps.

It just so happened that modern saddles now feature cutouts but it's also using thinner and lighter plastic body compared to saddles of 20 years ago. Older saddles are quite stiff and heavier too.

So now, there's less reason to stand. Now I only stand when I'm stuck in high gear when I'm stopped and needed to get moving quickly and that rarely happens.

Had to stand for this piece ...but sitting more than ever. Paid for a pro bike fit with my new sled.
Have to admit I'd never spun better and smoother. Ironic I claim to be standing for this piece but got a snap while moving. hmmm. lol
A little traversing while I shoved the phone back into the jersey rear pocket.[ATTACH type="full"]6575[/ATTACH]