Gary Taubes about ketosis

Matti Narkia said:

Science magazine's correspondent Gary Taubes, who in 2001 won the Science in
Society Journalism Award from his article

The Soft Science of Dietary Fat
Gary Taubes
Science, Vol 291, Number 5513, Mar 30, 2001 pp. 2536-2545
Winner of the 2001 Science in Society Journalism Award
http://www.jacquigingras.com/pdf/The%20Soft%20Science%20of%20Dietary%20Fat.pdf
http://nasw.org/mem-maint/awards/The%20soft%20science.pdf
http://www.countcarbs.com/research/softscience_part1.htm
http://timinvermont.com/fat.htm

writes in his last year's article

What if It's All Been a Big Fat Lie?
By Gary Taubes
New York Times Magazine, July 7, 2002
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=1726
http://www.countcarbs.com/research/whatif.htm
http://atkins.com/Archive/2003/1/20-542932.html
http://www.karlloren.com/diet/p116.htm

about ketosis (among other things) as follows:

"... That, however, raised the question of why such a low-
calorie regimen would also suppress hunger, which Atkins
insisted was the signature characteristic of the diet. One
possibility was Endocrinology 101: that fat and protein make
you sated and, lacking carbohydrates and the ensuing swings of
blood sugar and insulin, you stay sated. The other possibility
arose from the fact that Atkins's diet is ''ketogenic.'' This
means that insulin falls so low that you enter a state called

Hardly.

Quoted message said:

ketosis, which is what happens during fasting and starvation.

Anyone who remembers biochemistry 101 should know that ketosis happens during fasting/starvation because
carbohydrates become limiting and the Kreb cycle slows down to a near halt as a consequence. Without the
Kreb cycle running at full tilt, reduced NAD becomes rate limiting for the full catabolism of
triglycerides. Ketones are the products of incomplete catabolism of triglycerides.

We really can't blame Taubes because they probably did not teach biochemistry in journalism school.

Moreover, if Taubes ventured here, he would have known that the concerns about hyperketonemia have not
arisen from confusion with ketoacidosis.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Tue, 04 Nov 2003 10:52:52 -0500 in article
<[email hidden]> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"

Quoted message said:

Matti Narkia said:

ketosis, which is what happens during fasting and starvation.

Anyone who remembers biochemistry 101 should know that ketosis happens during fasting/starvation because
carbohydrates become limiting and the Kreb cycle slows down to a near halt as a consequence. Without the
Kreb cycle running at full tilt, reduced NAD becomes rate limiting for the full catabolism of
triglycerides. Ketones are the products of incomplete catabolism of triglycerides.

Still, the ketosis expert Dr. Richard Veech claims:

''Doctors are scared of ketosis,'' says Richard
Veech, an N.I.H. researcher who studied medicine at Harvard and
then got his doctorate at Oxford University with the Nobel
Laureate Hans Krebs. ''They're always worried about diabetic
ketoacidosis. But ketosis is a normal physiologic state. I
would argue it is the normal state of man. It's not normal to
have McDonald's and a delicatessen around every corner. It's
normal to starve.''

Simply put, ketosis is evolution's answer to the thrifty gene.
We may have evolved to efficiently store fat for times of
famine, says Veech, but we also evolved ketosis to efficiently
live off that fat when necessary. Rather than being poison,
which is how the press often refers to ketones, they make the
body run more efficiently and provide a backup fuel source for
the brain. Veech calls ketones ''magic'' and has shown that
both the heart and brain run 25 percent more efficiently on
ketones than on blood sugar. ..."

It seems that Veech is not overtly concerned about hyperketonemia.

Quoted message said:

We really can't blame Taubes because they probably did not teach biochemistry in journalism school.

Ah, but Veech probably learned a bit at Harvard and Oxford.

--
Matti Narkia

Matti Narkia said:

Tue, 04 Nov 2003 10:52:52 -0500 in article
<[email hidden]> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"

Quoted message said:

Matti Narkia said:

ketosis, which is what happens during fasting and starvation.

Anyone who remembers biochemistry 101 should know that ketosis happens during fasting/starvation because
carbohydrates become limiting and the Kreb cycle slows down to a near halt as a consequence. Without the
Kreb cycle running at full tilt, reduced NAD becomes rate limiting for the full catabolism of
triglycerides. Ketones are the products of incomplete catabolism of triglycerides.

Still, the ketosis expert Dr. Richard Veech claims:

Dr. Veech is an interesting person who seems to be banking on ketones being used therapeutically. It sounds
like he has invested in "food-science technology" by pointing out a need for the development of food-items
that enhance ketogenicity for further clinical testing of his hypothesis that ketones may be healthy.

See:

http://tinyurl.com/tme0

Shouldn't you be a little concerned about his bias?

Quoted message said:

''Doctors are scared of ketosis,'' says Richard
Veech, an N.I.H. researcher who studied medicine at Harvard and
then got his doctorate at Oxford University with the Nobel
Laureate Hans Krebs. ''They're always worried about diabetic
ketoacidosis. But ketosis is a normal physiologic state. I
would argue it is the normal state of man. It's not normal to
have McDonald's and a delicatessen around every corner. It's
normal to starve.''

It may also have been "normal" to die prematurely (from injury or infection) after being bitten by a
saber-tooth tiger.

Quoted message said:

Simply put, ketosis is evolution's answer to the thrifty gene.
We may have evolved to efficiently store fat for times of
famine, says Veech, but we also evolved ketosis to efficiently
live off that fat when necessary.

Ketosis is a less efficient metabolic state. He forgets we also have evolved the ability to store "body
starch" (aka glycogen) to avoid the ketogenic state.

Quoted message said:

Rather than being poison,
which is how the press often refers to ketones,

Ketones when imbided in moderate quantities *are* poisonous.

Quoted message said:

they make the
body run more efficiently and provide a backup fuel source for
the brain.

Only in small amounts.

Quoted message said:

Veech calls ketones ''magic'' and has shown that
both the heart and brain run 25 percent more efficiently on
ketones than on blood sugar. ..."

What's magical about that?

Quoted message said:

It seems that Veech is not overtly concerned about hyperketonemia.

Sounds like he may have a financial/research interest in downplaying the concerns about it (see above Pubmed
cite).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We really can't blame Taubes because they probably did not teach biochemistry in journalism school.

Ah, but Veech probably learned a bit at Harvard and Oxford.

Yes, Dr. Veech should know better (and he probably does).

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Tue, 04 Nov 2003 12:20:51 -0500 in article
<[email hidden]> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"

Quoted message said:

Matti Narkia said:

Tue, 04 Nov 2003 10:52:52 -0500 in article
<[email hidden]> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"

Quoted message said:

Matti Narkia wrote:

> ketosis, which is what happens during fasting and starvation.

Anyone who remembers biochemistry 101 should know that ketosis happens during fasting/starvation because
carbohydrates become limiting and the Kreb cycle slows down to a near halt as a consequence. Without the
Kreb cycle running at full tilt, reduced NAD becomes rate limiting for the full catabolism of
triglycerides. Ketones are the products of incomplete catabolism of triglycerides.

Still, the ketosis expert Dr. Richard Veech claims:

Dr. Veech is an interesting person who seems to be banking on ketones being used therapeutically. It sounds
like he has invested in "food-science technology" by pointing out a need for the development of food-items
that enhance ketogenicity for further clinical testing of his hypothesis that ketones may be healthy.

That's a very wild assumption.

Quoted message said:

See:

http://tinyurl.com/tme0

So you are handing me back the reference I gave to you.

Quoted message said:

Shouldn't you be a little concerned about his bias?

Not at this point, I don't think there is any.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

''Doctors are scared of ketosis,'' says Richard
Veech, an N.I.H. researcher who studied medicine at Harvard and
then got his doctorate at Oxford University with the Nobel
Laureate Hans Krebs. ''They're always worried about diabetic
ketoacidosis. But ketosis is a normal physiologic state. I
would argue it is the normal state of man. It's not normal to
have McDonald's and a delicatessen around every corner. It's
normal to starve.''

It may also have been "normal" to die prematurely (from injury or infection) after being bitten by a
saber-tooth tiger.

Eschew obfuscation.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Simply put, ketosis is evolution's answer to the thrifty gene.
We may have evolved to efficiently store fat for times of
famine, says Veech, but we also evolved ketosis to efficiently
live off that fat when necessary.

Ketosis is a less efficient metabolic state. He forgets we also have evolved the ability to store "body
starch" (aka glycogen) to avoid the ketogenic state.

Veech has shown that both the heart and brain run 25 percent more
efficiently on ketones than on blood sugar.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Rather than being poison,
which is how the press often refers to ketones,

Press is your authority?

Quoted message said:

Ketones when imbided in moderate quantities *are* poisonous.

Who is is imbiding them ?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

they make the
body run more efficiently and provide a backup fuel source for
the brain.

Quoted message said:

It seems that Veech is not overtly concerned about hyperketonemia.

Sounds like he may have a financial/research interest in downplaying the concerns about it (see above Pubmed
cite).

That's serious accusation without any grounds whatsoever and you know that.
You're libeling a famous scientist just because his view about ketosis
differs from yours. What a shame.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We really can't blame Taubes because they probably did not teach biochemistry in journalism school.

Ah, but Veech probably learned a bit at Harvard and Oxford.

Yes, Dr. Veech should know better (and he probably does).

Better than you? I agree with you about that And he has shared some of this
better knowledge about ketosis via Taubes' article.

--
Matti Narkia

Matti Narkia said:

Tue, 04 Nov 2003 12:20:51 -0500 in article
<[email hidden]> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"

Quoted message said:

Matti Narkia said:

Tue, 04 Nov 2003 10:52:52 -0500 in article
<[email hidden]> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

>Matti Narkia wrote:
>
>> ketosis, which is what happens during fasting and starvation.
>
>Anyone who remembers biochemistry 101 should know that ketosis happens during fasting/starvation because
>carbohydrates become limiting and the Kreb cycle slows down to a near halt as a consequence. Without the
>Kreb cycle running at full tilt, reduced NAD becomes rate limiting for the full catabolism of
>triglycerides. Ketones are the products of incomplete catabolism of triglycerides.
>
Still, the ketosis expert Dr. Richard Veech claims:

Dr. Veech is an interesting person who seems to be banking on ketones being used therapeutically. It sounds
like he has invested in "food-science technology" by pointing out a need for the development of food-items
that enhance ketogenicity for further clinical testing of his hypothesis that ketones may be healthy.

That's a very wild assumption.

It remains my impression.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

See:

http://tinyurl.com/tme0

So you are handing me back the reference I gave to you.

Yes, for you and others to read again to see where I am getting the above impressions regarding Dr. Veech's
possible bias.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Shouldn't you be a little concerned about his bias?

Not at this point, I don't think there is any.

That really doesn't surprise me. Probably doesn't surprise the other folks reading this.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

''Doctors are scared of ketosis,'' says Richard
Veech, an N.I.H. researcher who studied medicine at Harvard and
then got his doctorate at Oxford University with the Nobel
Laureate Hans Krebs. ''They're always worried about diabetic
ketoacidosis. But ketosis is a normal physiologic state. I
would argue it is the normal state of man. It's not normal to
have McDonald's and a delicatessen around every corner. It's
normal to starve.''

It may also have been "normal" to die prematurely (from injury or infection) after being bitten by a
saber-tooth tiger.

Eschew obfuscation.

Truth is hardly an obfuscation.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Simply put, ketosis is evolution's answer to the thrifty gene.
We may have evolved to efficiently store fat for times of
famine, says Veech, but we also evolved ketosis to efficiently
live off that fat when necessary.

Ketosis is a less efficient metabolic state. He forgets we also have evolved the ability to store "body
starch" (aka glycogen) to avoid the ketogenic state.

Veech has shown that both the heart and brain run 25 percent more
efficiently on ketones than on blood sugar.

Ketones in the urine (ie wasted calories) prove that ketosis is a less efficient metabolic state. You may be
certain that the ketones being flushed down the toilet are not being used by either the brain or the heart. Don't
forget about the ketones being volatile too (ie ketone breath)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Rather than being poison,
which is how the press often refers to ketones,

Press is your authority?

It is Dr. Veech's authority, apparently. The quote is from him. Perhaps this is the obfuscation you were looking
for.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Ketones when imbided in moderate quantities *are* poisonous.

Who is is imbiding them ?

Unwise people.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

they make the
body run more efficiently and provide a backup fuel source for
the brain.

Quoted message said:

It seems that Veech is not overtly concerned about hyperketonemia.

Sounds like he may have a financial/research interest in downplaying the concerns about it (see above Pubmed
cite).

That's serious accusation without any grounds whatsoever and you know that.

He did author the article which provides the basis for the impression that there may be bias.

Quoted message said:

You're libeling a famous scientist just because his view about ketosis
differs from yours.

Writing truthfully is hardly libel.

Quoted message said:

What a shame.

Truth is hardly shameful.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>We really can't blame Taubes because they probably did not teach biochemistry in journalism school.
>
Ah, but Veech probably learned a bit at Harvard and Oxford.

Yes, Dr. Veech should know better (and he probably does).

Better than you?

Better than Taubes.

Quoted message said:

I agree with you about that

Glad you agree.

Quoted message said:

And he has shared some of this
better knowledge about ketosis via Taubes' article.

Opinion and "better knowledge" are hardly synonymous.

God's humble bond-servant,

Andrew
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:

Quoted message said:

Matti Narkia said:

Science magazine's correspondent Gary Taubes, who in 2001 won the Science in
Society Journalism Award from his article

The Soft Science of Dietary Fat
Gary Taubes
Science, Vol 291, Number 5513, Mar 30, 2001 pp. 2536-2545
Winner of the 2001 Science in Society Journalism Award
http://www.jacquigingras.com/pdf/The%20Soft%20Science%20of%20Dietary%20Fat.pdf
http://nasw.org/mem-maint/awards/The%20soft%20science.pdf
http://www.countcarbs.com/research/softscience_part1.htm
http://timinvermont.com/fat.htm

writes in his last year's article

What if It's All Been a Big Fat Lie?
By Gary Taubes
New York Times Magazine, July 7, 2002
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=1726
http://www.countcarbs.com/research/whatif.htm
http://atkins.com/Archive/2003/1/20-542932.html
http://www.karlloren.com/diet/p116.htm

about ketosis (among other things) as follows:

"... That, however, raised the question of why such a low-
calorie regimen would also suppress hunger, which Atkins
insisted was the signature characteristic of the diet. One
possibility was Endocrinology 101: that fat and protein make
you sated and, lacking carbohydrates and the ensuing swings of
blood sugar and insulin, you stay sated. The other possibility
arose from the fact that Atkins's diet is ''ketogenic.'' This
means that insulin falls so low that you enter a state called

Hardly.

Quoted message said:

ketosis, which is what happens during fasting and starvation.

Anyone who remembers biochemistry 101 should know that ketosis happens during fasting/starvation because
carbohydrates become limiting and the Kreb cycle slows down to a near halt as a consequence. Without the
Kreb cycle running at full tilt, reduced NAD becomes rate limiting for the full catabolism of
triglycerides. Ketones are the products of incomplete catabolism of triglycerides.

It should be noted that the Krebs cycle is only slowed down in tissues
where there is a lot of gluconeogenesis, namely the liver. Other tissues
are still able to burn fatty acids completely or to utilise the ketones
the liver produces. This is important for the brain because fatty acids
cannot easily cross the blood-brain barrier so that the production of
ketones is the only way that the brain can use the bodyfat for fuel.

Quoted message said:

We really can't blame Taubes because they probably did not teach biochemistry in journalism school.

Moreover, if Taubes ventured here, he would have known that the concerns about hyperketonemia have not
arisen from confusion with ketoacidosis.

There is no evidence that the ketosis induced by ketogenic diets might
be harmful.

Thorsten

--
"Nothing in biology makes sense, except in the light of evolution"

(Theodosius Dobzhansky)

Thorsten Schier said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:

Quoted message said:

Matti Narkia said:

Science magazine's correspondent Gary Taubes, who in 2001 won the Science in
Society Journalism Award from his article

The Soft Science of Dietary Fat
Gary Taubes
Science, Vol 291, Number 5513, Mar 30, 2001 pp. 2536-2545
Winner of the 2001 Science in Society Journalism Award
http://www.jacquigingras.com/pdf/The%20Soft%20Science%20of%20Dietary%20Fat.pdf
http://nasw.org/mem-maint/awards/The%20soft%20science.pdf
http://www.countcarbs.com/research/softscience_part1.htm
http://timinvermont.com/fat.htm

writes in his last year's article

What if It's All Been a Big Fat Lie?
By Gary Taubes
New York Times Magazine, July 7, 2002
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=1726
http://www.countcarbs.com/research/whatif.htm
http://atkins.com/Archive/2003/1/20-542932.html
http://www.karlloren.com/diet/p116.htm

about ketosis (among other things) as follows:

"... That, however, raised the question of why such a low-
calorie regimen would also suppress hunger, which Atkins
insisted was the signature characteristic of the diet. One
possibility was Endocrinology 101: that fat and protein make
you sated and, lacking carbohydrates and the ensuing swings of
blood sugar and insulin, you stay sated. The other possibility
arose from the fact that Atkins's diet is ''ketogenic.'' This
means that insulin falls so low that you enter a state called

Hardly.

Quoted message said:

ketosis, which is what happens during fasting and starvation.

Anyone who remembers biochemistry 101 should know that ketosis happens during fasting/starvation because
carbohydrates become limiting and the Kreb cycle slows down to a near halt as a consequence. Without the
Kreb cycle running at full tilt, reduced NAD becomes rate limiting for the full catabolism of
triglycerides. Ketones are the products of incomplete catabolism of triglycerides.

It should be noted that the Krebs cycle is only slowed down in tissues
where there is a lot of gluconeogenesis, namely the liver. Other tissues
are still able to burn fatty acids completely or to utilise the ketones
the liver produces. This is important for the brain because fatty acids
cannot easily cross the blood-brain barrier so that the production of
ketones is the only way that the brain can use the bodyfat for fuel.

Quoted message said:

We really can't blame Taubes because they probably did not teach biochemistry in journalism school.

Moreover, if Taubes ventured here, he would have known that the concerns about hyperketonemia have not
arisen from confusion with ketoacidosis.

There is no evidence that the ketosis induced by ketogenic diets might
be harmful.

However, we have discussed evidence that in a test tube under otherwise physiological conditions, ketones cause
lipid peroxidation. This indeed might be harmful to the intact organism.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:

Quoted message said:

Thorsten Schier said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:

Quoted message said:

Matti Narkia wrote:

> Science magazine's correspondent Gary Taubes, who in 2001 won the Science in
> Society Journalism Award from his article
>
> The Soft Science of Dietary Fat
> Gary Taubes
> Science, Vol 291, Number 5513, Mar 30, 2001 pp. 2536-2545
> Winner of the 2001 Science in Society Journalism Award
> http://www.jacquigingras.com/pdf/The%20Soft%20Science%20of%20Dietary%20Fat.pdf
> http://nasw.org/mem-maint/awards/The%20soft%20science.pdf
> http://www.countcarbs.com/research/softscience_part1.htm
> http://timinvermont.com/fat.htm
>
> writes in his last year's article
>
> What if It's All Been a Big Fat Lie?
> By Gary Taubes
> New York Times Magazine, July 7, 2002
> http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=1726
> http://www.countcarbs.com/research/whatif.htm
> http://atkins.com/Archive/2003/1/20-542932.html
> http://www.karlloren.com/diet/p116.htm
>
> about ketosis (among other things) as follows:
>
> "... That, however, raised the question of why such a low-
> calorie regimen would also suppress hunger, which Atkins
> insisted was the signature characteristic of the diet. One
> possibility was Endocrinology 101: that fat and protein make
> you sated and, lacking carbohydrates and the ensuing swings of
> blood sugar and insulin, you stay sated. The other possibility
> arose from the fact that Atkins's diet is ''ketogenic.'' This
> means that insulin falls so low that you enter a state called

Hardly.

>
> ketosis, which is what happens during fasting and starvation.

Anyone who remembers biochemistry 101 should know that ketosis happens during fasting/starvation because
carbohydrates become limiting and the Kreb cycle slows down to a near halt as a consequence. Without the
Kreb cycle running at full tilt, reduced NAD becomes rate limiting for the full catabolism of
triglycerides. Ketones are the products of incomplete catabolism of triglycerides.

It should be noted that the Krebs cycle is only slowed down in tissues
where there is a lot of gluconeogenesis, namely the liver. Other tissues
are still able to burn fatty acids completely or to utilise the ketones
the liver produces. This is important for the brain because fatty acids
cannot easily cross the blood-brain barrier so that the production of
ketones is the only way that the brain can use the bodyfat for fuel.

Quoted message said:

We really can't blame Taubes because they probably did not teach biochemistry in journalism school.

Moreover, if Taubes ventured here, he would have known that the concerns about hyperketonemia have not
arisen from confusion with ketoacidosis.

There is no evidence that the ketosis induced by ketogenic diets might
be harmful.

However, we have discussed evidence that in a test tube under otherwise physiological conditions, ketones cause
lipid peroxidation. This indeed might be harmful to the intact organism.

Yes, we have. However, physiological concentrations only caused minor
lipid peroxidation and even the effects of very high concentrations
could be prevented by vitamin E.

Thorsten

--
"Nothing in biology makes sense, except in the light of evolution"

(Theodosius Dobzhansky)