Garmin 60CSx initial comments ..

GSV Three Minds in a Can said:

OK, it (60CSx) finally arrived, and I have to agree with whoever said
the transflash card looked like you wouldn't want to swap it every day.
The transflash card itself looks slightly fragile. The metal holder for
it (under the batteries) looks like it was designed by the folks who
also brought you Mayfly wing joints. 8<,

Other comments .. the sensitivity is every bit as good as people claim,
although that does result in it 'walking' while on my desk .. several
dozen meters in one leap sometimes. I guess the multipath is getting to
it.

Also seems to have aversion to ESTB satellite (PRN33) - it locked for a
while, downloaded some differential corrections, and then decided to
quit playing - didn't look for any other birds (37 and 39 are sometimes
available, and a vanilla 60C/CS will cycle through everything from 33 to
51 .. to no avail), just gave up - looking for 11 GPS satellites, and a
-- where it could be hunting for WAAS/EGNOS/ESTB. The manual does say
something to the effect that it'll stop using WAAS if 'without' gives
better results.

Oh, and the new USB connectivity doesn't work with Tracklogs V2 (for our
UK users) .. only with V3.11 and up. I don't know what Tracklogs did
wrong, because it works like a hose with an extremely old version of
Oziexplorer (and, of course, with Mapsource).

Apart from that I'm well pleased. Redraw, and everything else, is pretty
snappy compared to a 60C. I could have done without the games, and with
the cartoon stile logos on the menu pages, but basically it's a nice
unit.

One other thing I noticed, when averaging waypoints

I read about how the csx can average waypoints but I don't know what it
means, can you help?

Quoted message said:

the accuracy
estimate now (mostly) goes down over time, as more estimates are added.
With the 60C it would leap around all over the place, as if the accuracy
was only for the last point (or else the algorithm was bust).

And finally (shameless plug) the 'old' (well, replaced under warranty
last August) 60C is available for purchase - on Amazon.co.uk
marketplace, rather than Ebay (I have an aversion to Ebay).

--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
Contact recommends the use of Firefox; SC recommends it at gunpoint.

Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from
the wonderful person Dundonald <[email hidden]> said
<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

One other thing I noticed, when averaging waypoints

I read about how the csx can average waypoints but I don't know what it
means, can you help?

All 60xxx's (even the vanilla 60C) can average waypoints. They take one
position reading ever second, and average them to decide where the
waypoint you are marking really is. Only wrinkle is (despite the manual)
you can =only= average the one you are currently 'marking'.

Exactly =how= Garmin average X,y,z with A,b,c (etc.) to get final
height, latitude and longitude is probably a trade secret.

--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
Contact recommends the use of Firefox; SC recommends it at gunpoint.

Dundonald said:

I read about how the csx can average waypoints but I don't know what
it means, can you help?

To mark a waypoint you press the MARK button, then you press ENTER. You may
notice that the OK button on the bottom right of the screen is highlighted.

To average a waypoint, before you press ENTER, press the left button a
couple of times until the AVG button on the bottom left is highlighted.
When you press ENTER a different screen will appear and the unit will start
averaging. You can see the data averaging and the estimated accuracy
gradually going down, it also shows how many measurements it's averaged. I
usually do about 50, unless I'm stopping for a rest.

When you've got thoroughly bored with waiting, you press ENTER (the SAVE
button is highlighted) which takes you back to the previous screen. Press
the right button a couple of times to highlight OK and press ENTER.

One very important note that 60CS and 60CSx users need to be aware of is
this.

1. If you mark a waypoint normally, it records the altimeter elevation.
2. If you average a waypoint, it records the GPS elevation.

This is a critical difference since the altimeter usually gives a more
accurate elevation than the GPS elevation, which tends to jump around a lot.
Unfortunately (on the 60CS at least) you can't see the GPS elevation to
compare it with the altimeter, so you don't see how much it's jumping
around.

I daresay the averaged elevation may be quite accurate if you average for
long enough, but I haven't done any proper tests. A short averaging period
isn't good enough. If I want to mark a waypoint accurately I mark two
waypoints, one normal to record the altimeter elevation, the other averaged
to get a better grid ref. If I want better accuracy I'll stop for a snack
and leave it averaging for the duration, but I can't do that for every one.

If you do record two waypoints, don't forget to label them differently so
you can tell which is which. I usually add the number of iterations to the
name.

But having said that, the altimeter elevation is what's recorded in the
track, so if you stop for a while, you'll have a number of track points
recorded at that spot, which you can then average manually later for a
better altimeter elevation. (I find that altimeter elevation tends to
fluctuate within a 2-3m range when standing still, which is far better than
GPS elevation, which bounces around like Zebedee.)

One more thing about the altimeter and auto-calibration, it tends to get
more accurate over time, so it's less accurate at the start of the walk,
more accurate at the end. I usually switch it on at home and calibrate it
there, giving it time to settle down during the drive, but even so, I find
that on a walk, my start elevation is usually a bit different to my end
elevation (at the same point), by maybe 5m. I'm guessing that pressure
differences in the car may be to blame (which is why I leave the windows
open if the weather is warm).

Paul

GSV Three Minds in a Can said:

Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from
the wonderful person Dundonald <[email hidden]> said
<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

One other thing I noticed, when averaging waypoints

I read about how the csx can average waypoints but I don't know what it
means, can you help?

All 60xxx's (even the vanilla 60C) can average waypoints. They take one
position reading ever second, and average them to decide where the
waypoint you are marking really is. Only wrinkle is (despite the manual)
you can =only= average the one you are currently 'marking'.

Exactly =how= Garmin average X,y,z with A,b,c (etc.) to get final
height, latitude and longitude is probably a trade secret.

A side shot question - is it possible for me to 'follow' a downloaded
route on my 60csx but at the same time record the actual route I walk?
For instance, if I prepare a route in Anquet and download it to my
60csx, I'm wondering if I can follow the route on the device but then
if I decide to vear off track to look at views or for whatever reason,
I would also like to be recording my actual track. Is this possible?

(I'm still getting used to handling my first GPS handset and the
software that goes around it).

GSV Three Minds in a Can said:

Other comments .. the sensitivity is every bit as good as people
claim, although that does result in it 'walking' while on my desk ..
several dozen meters in one leap sometimes. I guess the multipath is
getting to it.

Sounds like that sometimes may not be a good thing.

Quoted message said:

Also seems to have aversion to ESTB satellite (PRN33) - it locked for
a while, downloaded some differential corrections, and then decided to
quit playing

I've still yet to pick up a WAAS satellite on my 60CS!

Quoted message said:

The manual does say something to the effect that
it'll stop using WAAS if 'without' gives better results.

Mine couldn't be doing that, could it?

Quoted message said:

Apart from that I'm well pleased. Redraw, and everything else, is
pretty snappy compared to a 60C.

That's good. I haven't considered redraw to be a problem in normal use, but
in the snow a while back it was terminally slow, must have taken 5 seconds
or so to respond to a change in direction, which was driving me nuts on the
rough ground where I was forced to zig-zag a lot. It was probably just the
cold that was to blame.

Quoted message said:

One other thing I noticed, when averaging waypoints the accuracy
estimate now (mostly) goes down over time, as more estimates are
added. With the 60C it would leap around all over the place,

Really? I've never had that problem. It "mostly goes down" on my 60CS.

Paul

Dundonald said:

A side shot question - is it possible for me to 'follow' a downloaded
route on my 60csx but at the same time record the actual route I walk?

I assume you mean tracks, not routes? When you say downloaded, do you mean
a track you've already recorded and previously downloaded to your computer,
or do you mean a track that you draw on your computer?

It's no problem anyway. Just uploaded the track into a saved track slot and
give it whatever name you want. On the GPS you can turn it on or off, and
give it a colour of your choice, so for example, you could make your
uploaded track green, while the track you are recording (the *active* track)
shows in red.

Even if you only had one track, the active one, you could still upload it to
that and follow it. As you run out of trackpoints (if you run out that is),
the older track points will be erased by the new ones. I've done that with
my GPS12 with only had one track with 1024 points. By the end of the walk,
most of the track I'd uploaded had been erased, but it was fine while I was
following it, although actually it was quite confusing following a black
track whilst creating a black track on a black and white GPS. Thank god for
colour!

Paul

In message <[email hidden]>, GSV Three Minds in a Can
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

OK, it (60CSx) finally arrived, a

Did you get a good deal? I have been considering doing some shopping
therapy to get me out of my current low state - but even still I don't
want to spend more than I have to.

I am not interested in a grey import - I want the Europe map to be
pre-loaded - not taking up memory.

--
Martin Richardson
283/284 Munros - 0.35% to go 34/34 'Furths'- 0% to go
57/89 Donalds - 36% to go 506/1554 Marilyns - 67% to go
376/525 Hewitts - 28% to go (E=178/178; W=137/137; I=61/211)

Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the wonderful
person Paul Saunders <[email hidden]> said

Quoted message said:

Dundonald said:

I read about how the csx can average waypoints but I don't know what
it means, can you help?

To mark a waypoint you press the MARK button, then you press ENTER. You may
notice that the OK button on the bottom right of the screen is highlighted.

To average a waypoint, before you press ENTER, press the left button a
couple of times until the AVG button on the bottom left is highlighted.
When you press ENTER a different screen will appear and the unit will start
averaging. You can see the data averaging and the estimated accuracy
gradually going down, it also shows how many measurements it's averaged. I
usually do about 50, unless I'm stopping for a rest.

When you've got thoroughly bored with waiting, you press ENTER (the SAVE
button is highlighted) which takes you back to the previous screen. Press
the right button a couple of times to highlight OK and press ENTER.

One very important note that 60CS and 60CSx users need to be aware of is
this.

1. If you mark a waypoint normally, it records the altimeter elevation.
2. If you average a waypoint, it records the GPS elevation.

This is a critical difference since the altimeter usually gives a more
accurate elevation than the GPS elevation, which tends to jump around a lot.
Unfortunately (on the 60CS at least) you can't see the GPS elevation to
compare it with the altimeter, so you don't see how much it's jumping
around.

On the CSX you can see it, but only via a menu option on the satellite
display page. And yes, the CSX still uses GSP elevation for averaged
waypoints (and checking both today, the GPS elevation is pretty good -
not jumping around at all .. with 10 satellites locked and WAAS on. 8>.)
Oh - final comment - in a few places during my trek, they both agreed
to within 1m, and were 10m off from the 1:25K OSGB map contours, so yep,
I guess OSGB have a few problems in the vertical plane too (I know for
damn sure some of their minor roads are off by 10m or more)

Quoted message said:

I daresay the averaged elevation may be quite accurate if you average for
long enough, but I haven't done any proper tests. A short averaging period
isn't good enough. If I want to mark a waypoint accurately I mark two
waypoints, one normal to record the altimeter elevation, the other averaged
to get a better grid ref. If I want better accuracy I'll stop for a snack
and leave it averaging for the duration, but I can't do that for every one.

If you do record two waypoints, don't forget to label them differently so
you can tell which is which. I usually add the number of iterations to the
name.

But having said that, the altimeter elevation is what's recorded in the
track, so if you stop for a while, you'll have a number of track points
recorded at that spot, which you can then average manually later for a
better altimeter elevation. (I find that altimeter elevation tends to
fluctuate within a 2-3m range when standing still, which is far better than
GPS elevation, which bounces around like Zebedee.)

One more thing about the altimeter and auto-calibration, it tends to get
more accurate over time, so it's less accurate at the start of the walk,
more accurate at the end. I usually switch it on at home and calibrate it
there, giving it time to settle down during the drive, but even so, I find
that on a walk, my start elevation is usually a bit different to my end
elevation (at the same point), by maybe 5m. I'm guessing that pressure
differences in the car may be to blame (which is why I leave the windows
open if the weather is warm).

I have a genuine OSGB trig point (345m) only ~200m up the hill from me,
so calibration is not a big issue. 8>. I may not believe their contours,
but I believe their trig points. Eventually I'm going to get my back
doorstep calibrated (I know its 320m +/-3, but I want +/- <1)

--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
Contact recommends the use of Firefox; SC recommends it at gunpoint.

Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the wonderful
person Martin Richardson <[email hidden]> said

Quoted message said:

In message <[email hidden]>, GSV Three Minds in a Can
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

OK, it (60CSx) finally arrived, a

Did you get a good deal? I have been considering doing some shopping
therapy to get me out of my current low state - but even still I don't
want to spend more than I have to.

I don't know - I got change out of £400, is that a good deal? Plus £120
for the top mapping of course ..

Quoted message said:

I am not interested in a grey import - I want the Europe map to be
pre-loaded - not taking up memory.

If you want cheaper I have my old 60C on amazon.co.uk marketplace for a
mere £250 (slightly negotiable), and I can load it with whatever UK topo
maps you want in it (one time only). It is the European model, but trust
me, you won't get very far with just the basemaps, even the European
ones.

--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
Contact recommends the use of Firefox; SC recommends it at gunpoint.

Paul Saunders said:

Dundonald said:

A side shot question - is it possible for me to 'follow' a downloaded
route on my 60csx but at the same time record the actual route I walk?

I assume you mean tracks, not routes?

That's the ticket (but in Anquet you create a route which consists of
many waypoints marked at the changes of direction).

Quoted message said:

When you say downloaded, do you mean
a track you've already recorded and previously downloaded to your computer,
or do you mean a track that you draw on your computer?

A track/route downloaded to the GPS from Anquet, so for example, I plan
a track/route in Anquet that I want to follow on my 60csx. So off I
go. But whilst I'm out walking I might want to walk off that
track/route on occasion (for views etc) but during the whole time I'm
out walking I want to be recording a new route/track on the 60csx to
record what I'm actually walking (which will differ in part from the
track/route that I originally set out to follow and that was created in
Anquet).

Quoted message said:

It's no problem anyway. Just uploaded the track into a saved track slot and
give it whatever name you want. On the GPS you can turn it on or off, and
give it a colour of your choice, so for example, you could make your
uploaded track green, while the track you are recording (the *active* track)
shows in red.

Even if you only had one track, the active one, you could still upload it to
that and follow it. As you run out of trackpoints (if you run out that is),
the older track points will be erased by the new ones. I've done that with
my GPS12 with only had one track with 1024 points. By the end of the walk,
most of the track I'd uploaded had been erased, but it was fine while I was
following it, although actually it was quite confusing following a black
track whilst creating a black track on a black and white GPS. Thank god for
colour!

Paul

"Martin Richardson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am not interested in a grey import - I want the Europe map to be
pre-loaded - not taking up memory.

I wouldn't have thought the basemap would have been much of an issue now
that you can slot 512MB/1GB memory cards in the unit.

Dundonald said:

Quoted message said:

I assume you mean tracks, not routes?

That's the ticket (but in Anquet you create a route which consists of
many waypoints marked at the changes of direction).

So you *do* mean routes?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When you say downloaded, do you mean
a track you've already recorded and previously downloaded to your
computer, or do you mean a track that you draw on your computer?

A track/route downloaded to the GPS from Anquet,

Which is it? Track or route? Make your mind up! They're different things!
:-)

Not meaning to be picky, but you *upload* to the GPS, you *download* to your
computer. I'm getting very confused here!

Quoted message said:

so for example, I
plan a track/route in Anquet that I want to follow on my 60csx.

No, you plan a *ROUTE*. That's connected waypoints. Completely different
thing to a track.

Quoted message said:

So
off I go. But whilst I'm out walking I might want to walk off that
track/route on occasion (for views etc) but during the whole time I'm
out walking I want to be recording a new route/track on the 60csx

No, you can't record a route, you record a *TRACK*. Track recording is
completely separate from route following.

1. You plan a ROUTE to follow, this is a series of waypoints that tells you
where to go.
2. You UPLOAD this to your GPS.
3. Your GPS records a TRACK as you walk (turn Active Track recording on).
4. You DOWNLOAD the track to your computer (Anquet), this shows you where
you went.
5. SAVE your track.

Is that clear now? The reason I was getting confused was because some
people like to draw a track and follow that instead of a route. That's what
I thought you meant at first.

Paul

In message <[email hidden]>, Paul Saunders
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

1. You plan a ROUTE to follow, this is a series of waypoints that tells you
where to go.
2. You UPLOAD this to your GPS.
3. Your GPS records a TRACK as you walk (turn Active Track recording on).
4. You DOWNLOAD the track to your computer (Anquet), this shows you where
you went.
5. SAVE your track.

Is that clear now? The reason I was getting confused was because some
people like to draw a track and follow that instead of a route. That's what
I thought you meant at first.

Gone are the days when you just put on your boots and headed off up the
track.

--
Martin Richardson
283/284 Munros - 0.35% to go 34/34 'Furths'- 0% to go
57/89 Donalds - 36% to go 506/1554 Marilyns - 67% to go
376/525 Hewitts - 28% to go (E=178/178; W=137/137; I=61/211)

Paul Saunders wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

No, you can't record a route, you record a *TRACK*. Track recording is
completely separate from route following.

1. You plan a ROUTE to follow, this is a series of waypoints that tells you
where to go.
2. You UPLOAD this to your GPS.
3. Your GPS records a TRACK as you walk (turn Active Track recording on).
4. You DOWNLOAD the track to your computer (Anquet), this shows you where
you went.
5. SAVE your track.

Is that clear now?

Aye thanks! 🙂 Sorry about the confusion.

Quoted message said:

The reason I was getting confused was because some
people like to draw a track and follow that instead of a route.

In Anquet I don't think it's possible to create a track, only a route.

Quoted message said:

That's what
I thought you meant at first.