Funny what custom made now means

JFT-<< These seem to be what ten years ago would have been normal racing
wheels (apart from the offset eyelets), but now are special: >><BR><BR>

Geee, aluminum rims, stainl;ess steel spokes in a hub, laced
and hopefully built well. No gaps, no pair

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali
costruite eccezionalmente bene"

And Brass nipples!

-kurd

"Qui si parla Campagnolo " <[email hidden]> wrote in
message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

JFT-<< These seem to be what ten years ago would have been
normal racing wheels (apart from the offset eyelets), but
now are special: >><BR><BR>

Geee, aluminum rims, stainl;ess steel spokes in a hub,
laced and hopefully built well. No gaps, no pair

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali
costruite eccezionalmente bene"

On 7 Jul 2004 05:13:39 -0700, [email hidden] (John Forrest

Tomlinson) said:

These seem to be what ten years ago would have been
normal racing wheels (apart from the offset eyelets), but
now are special:

cyclingnews.com/photos/2004/tour04/tech/?id=usps_stage3/CN-
TDF04-Tech36_LA_trek

"Custom made" seems to have acquired the same lack of depth
of meaning in wheels as it has in many other areas; if the
item has variable selections in features, and was ordered
with the exact config that the customer specifically wanted,
suddenly it's "custom made".

So, what are they going to call something that was made to
spec but *isn't* available from the normal set of options?

--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug. Some gardening required to
reply via email. Surrealism is a pectinated ranzel.

Werehatrack said:

On 7 Jul 2004 05:13:39 -0700, [email hidden]

(John Forrest Tomlinson) said:

These seem to be what ten years ago would have been normal
racing wheels (apart from the offset eyelets), but now are
special:

yclingnews.com/photos/2004/tour04/tech/?id=usps_stage3/CN-
TDF04-Tech36_LA_trek

"Custom made" seems to have acquired the same lack of
depth of meaning in wheels as it has in many other areas;
if the item has variable selections in features, and was
ordered with the exact config that the customer
specifically wanted, suddenly it's "custom made".

So, what are they going to call something that was made to
spec but *isn't* available from the normal set of options?

While I agree that the wheel in the photo was chosen for a
pave stage and is a good choice because it's NOT a boutique
wheel, the "custom made" phrase is CN.com's rhetoric, not
Bontrager's. It's jounalistic license, not re-hashed retro-
marketing hype (in this case at least).

<< These seem to be what ten years ago would have been normal racing
wheels (apart from the offset eyelets), but now are special:

.cyclingnews.com/photos/2004/tour04/tech/?id=usps_stage3/CN-
TDF0 4-Tech36_LA_trek >>

Nowadays, if you want to find 32 or 36 spoke wheels laced 3X
with SS spokes, brass nipples, and box rims (especially
tubulars) you really do need to order them custom-built...

[email hidden] (Qui si parla Campagnolo ) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

JFT-<< These seem to be what ten years ago would have been
normal racing wheels (apart from the offset eyelets), but
now are special: >><BR><BR>

Geee, aluminum rims, stainl;ess steel spokes in a hub,
laced and hopefully built well. No gaps, no pair

Peter Chisholm

Proof that the Tour would be a lot more fun if Jobst Brandt
was made the route planner, unpaved alpine passes, cart
tracks, no radios or team cars. Real Racin', Hell, fixies
would be even better for a couple stages, make those long
flat stages in the first week more entertaining.

Scott Goldsmith Channeling Uncle Henri.

Werehatrack said:

So, what are they going to call something that was made to
spec but *isn't* available from the normal set of options?

"Custom fabricated".
--
Rick Onanian

Werehatrack said:

"Custom made" seems to have acquired the same lack of depth
of meaning in wheels as it has in many other areas; if the
item has variable selections in features, and was ordered
with the exact config that the customer specifically
wanted, suddenly it's "custom made".

I don't see the problem. Custom wheel builders offer you
options that you might not have in pre-built wheels.
I've had wheels custom made where I chose the hubs, rims
and spokes. None of the stuff was particularly exotic
but it was also not a combination that I could find in
pre-built wheels.

I'm probably going to need a new set of wheels in the next
year or so. I haven't yet decided wether I'll have them
custom made or finally take up wheel building myself (and
they'll still be custom made). Unfortunately, my old wheel
builder retired (he was highly skilled and relatively
inexpensive).

Custom never meant "exotic". It also doesn't necessarily
mean stuff that regular consumers can't get. It doesn't even
necessarily mean expensive.

Quoted message said:

So, what are they going to call something that was made to
spec but *isn't* available from the normal set of options?

Do you mean hubs, rims and spokes that are only available to
top professionals? Those are still custom. There's really no
difference other than price.

Werehatrack <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

On 7 Jul 2004 05:13:39 -0700, [email hidden]

(John Forrest Tomlinson) said:

These seem to be what ten years ago would have been
normal racing wheels (apart from the offset eyelets), but
now are special:

clingnews.com/photos/2004/tour04/tech/?id=usps_stage3/CN-
TDF04-Tech36_LA_trek

"Custom made" seems to have acquired the same lack of
depth of meaning in wheels as it has in many other areas;
if the item has variable selections in features, and was
ordered with the exact config that the customer
specifically wanted, suddenly it's "custom made".

So, what are they going to call something that was made to
spec but *isn't* available from the normal set of options?

Broadly, this may even argue against a frame sized
specifically to a person's preference as being called
"custom." Mostly because the very next person to order
might ask for exactly the same dimensions, and get the very
same frame.

If the parts spec on a particular wheelbuild isn't available
for purchase premade anywhere, isn't asking a wheelbuilder
to whip a pair up a "custom" job? Even if the components are
available (readily or otherwise)? Or is the only thing
considered custom stuff like Chalo's brake set-up - a one-
off manufacturing job suited for a very specific purpose.

I am curious because there seems to be levels of "custom,"
and the term is often used quite loosely. I have seen folks
in alt.mountain-bike respec a standard off-the-rack frame
with chi-chi gear and call it "custom." The resulting parts-
hanger bike is certainly one-off in it's first instance.
--
Jonesy

Bill Davidson said:

Werehatrack said:

"Custom made" seems to have acquired the same lack of
depth of meaning in wheels as it has in many other areas;
if the item has variable selections in features, and was
ordered with the exact config that the customer
specifically wanted, suddenly it's "custom made".

Custom never meant "exotic". It also doesn't necessarily
mean stuff that regular consumers can't get. It doesn't
even necessarily mean expensive.

Quoted message said:

So, what are they going to call something that was made
to spec but *isn't* available from the normal set of
options?

Do you mean hubs, rims and spokes that are only available
to top professionals? Those are still custom. There's
really no difference other than price.

I had a batch of Velocity Deep-V rims specially made to my
order with 72 hole drilling. They are otherwise completely
normal Deep-Vs, but I had to negotiate their production with
the manufacturer. In my opinion, those rims are custom made
while ordinary handbuilt 32 spoke wheels are not, even if
they use a new permutation of ordinary rims, ordinary hubs,
and ordinary lacing patterns.

To me, custom means the same as bespoke, indicating a thing
that exists only because it was specifically requested from
its maker. It's almost the exact opposite what is often
referred to as "custom", epitomized by neon lights stuck
underneath an economy car (or boutique wheels and a Brand S
gruppo fastened to a frame that came out of a mold).

Chalo Colina

On 7 Jul 2004 23:08:44 -0700, [email hidden]
(Chalo) wrote:

[snip non-trolling material]

Quoted message said:

I had a batch of Velocity Deep-V rims specially made to my
order with 72 hole drilling. They are otherwise completely
normal Deep-Vs, but I had to negotiate their production
with the manufacturer.

[skip everything past the hook]

Quoted message said:

Chalo Colina

Dear Chalo,

Okay, you've dangled the bait in a casual manner, so now
it's time to reel me in.

Why did you order a batch of 72-hole Velocity Deep-V rims?

Were you collapsing your off-road unicycle off the jumps and
hoping that the aerodynamic qualities of Deep-V rims would
offset the increased drag of the extra spokes?

Had you mistakenly ordered twice as many spokes as you
needed for a 36-spoke wheel-building run?

Inquisitively,

Carl Fogel

Chalo said:

To me, custom means the same as bespoke, indicating a
thing that exists only because it was specifically
requested from its maker. It's almost the exact opposite
what is often referred to as "custom", epitomized by neon
lights stuck underneath an economy car (or boutique wheels
and a Brand S gruppo fastened to a frame that came out of
a mold).

Interestingly, Richard Sachs draws a distinction between
"bespoke" and full-on "custom." Speaking of bicycle frames,
if you ask Sachs to build you a frame, he makes one tailored
for your measurements and preference, but with his
interpretation of geometry and construction - you can't
request some completely off-the-wall geometry that he
doesn't think will ride like a Sachs. That's bespoke, like a
tailor that works from your measurements. Similarly, you
can't get a Rivendell with criterium geometry, or TIG
welding. A "full custom" frame presumably would be whatever
the customer specifies within the capabilities of the
constructor. If you do contract machining you can probably
think of corresponding examples.

The neon-lights phenomenon you refer to I think of as
"customization" in a J.C. Whitney sense, but not "custom-
made."

Quoted message said:

Dear Chalo,

Why did you order a batch of 72-hole Velocity Deep-V rims?

Could it be because he weighs as much as the sum of 3 Carl
Fogels and 4 Rick Onanians, and is at least twice as strong
as that collection?

Okay, there was a minor element of exaggeration in the
above.
--
Rick Onanian

"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

These seem to be what ten years ago would have been normal

racing

Quoted message said:

wheels (apart from the offset eyelets), but now are
special:

.cyclingnews.com/photos/2004/tour04/tech/?id=usps_stage3/CN-
TDF04-Tech36_LA_trek

Hey, I told you this was going to happen! The botique wheel
manufacturers would start selling conventional wheels as new
technology. It is just like the Michelin "carbon" tires and
the Campagnolo single pivot brakes. Pretty soon threaded
steerers and conventional headsets will come back as new
technology. Maybe the MA2/E2/Mod E will come back, too.
Forward, into the Past! -- Jay Beattie.

[email hidden] (Chalo) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Bill Davidson said:

Werehatrack said:

"Custom made" seems to have acquired the same lack of
depth of meaning in wheels as it has in many other
areas; if the item has variable selections in features,
and was ordered with the exact config that the customer
specifically wanted, suddenly it's "custom made".

Custom never meant "exotic". It also doesn't necessarily
mean stuff that regular consumers can't get. It doesn't
even necessarily mean expensive.

Quoted message said:

So, what are they going to call something that was
made to spec but *isn't* available from the normal set
of options?

Do you mean hubs, rims and spokes that are only
available to top professionals? Those are still custom.
There's really no difference other than price.

I had a batch of Velocity Deep-V rims specially made to my
order with 72 hole drilling. They are otherwise completely
normal Deep-Vs, but I had to negotiate their production
with the manufacturer. In my opinion, those rims are
custom made while ordinary handbuilt 32 spoke wheels are
not, even if they use a new permutation of ordinary rims,
ordinary hubs, and ordinary lacing patterns.

To me, custom means the same as bespoke, indicating a
thing that exists only because it was specifically
requested from its maker. It's almost the exact opposite
what is often referred to as "custom", epitomized by neon
lights stuck underneath an economy car (or boutique wheels
and a Brand S gruppo fastened to a frame that came out of
a mold).

Chalo Colina

I agree in part. You are right to equate custom with bespoke
(and implicitly to contrast this with off the peg), however,
your demand for specially made components to make something
custom is not necessary.

In the case of wheels the maker is the wheelbuilder. Any
specially requested combination of hubs/spokes and rims is
therefore custom made rather than chosen from a selection of
pre-built wheels on offer.

After all, you aren't going to say a suit isn't bespoke
because the tailor made it out of stock cloth and thread are
you? A bespoke suit doesn't have to have specially woven
cloth; a bespoke wheel doesn't necessitate specially
manufactured sub-components

Andrew Webster.

Quoted message said:

(Chalo) said:

I had a batch of Velocity Deep-V rims specially made to
my order with 72 hole drilling. They are otherwise
completely normal Deep-Vs, but I had to negotiate their
production with the manufacturer.

Why did you order a batch of 72-hole Velocity Deep-V rims?

I was struck at some point by the number of options
available in 36 hole hubs (gearhubs, drum brakes, and discs)
that were not available in 48 hole versions (that is, in
_my_ version). Since it is a (comparatively) easy matter to
double the number of spoke holes in a hub using CNC, and a
comparatively easy matter to calculate odd spoke lengths
using CAD, I reckoned that all I needed was a suitable
source of rims to exercise this option. Double-drilling 36h
rims doesn't work so well due to the staggered holes.

Sun Rims did not want to talk to me. They used to offer
blank rims by request, but they had by then decided that the
end user is not their customer after all. Simon Rakower
(Snow Cat) would have been agreeable to the project, but he
only offered 45mm wide singlewall rims in 26" at that time.

Velocity USA checked in with their Australian facility, and
agreed that they could make them for me for a $250 setup fee
at that time (a few years ago.)

I ignorantly figured that such a superabundance of spokes
would allow me to use whatever lightweight rim I chose, not
remembering that the compression on the rim is proportional
to the sum total spoke tension, and that these rims needed
to be heavier than usual just to take the spoke tension. The
folks at Velocity said no way would they drill an Aerohead
with 72 holes, but they were OK with the Deep-V or Dyad.
Since I was thinking "road bike", I chose the Deep-V.

I ordered 10 rims to keep the unit cost within reason,
thinking I could sell some off if I didn't like them
after all.

I have to date built only one wheelset using these rims, for
a friend of mine who weighed maybe 140 lbs. and whose
interest in them was purely artistic. For both his wheels
and my prospective wheels, I chose 14/17 and 15/17 gauge
spokes, on the basis that the minimum spoke cross-section
would be similar to 36 14ga. spokes. That way I could be
sure of getting enough elastic range from the spokes at
tensions I knew to be attainable.

That first wheelset used a SRAM Spectro 7 gearhub in the
rear, double-drilled, and an American Classic 24h high
flange disc brake hub in the front, triple-drilled. (I did
this so that the spoke holes would still stagger after the
additional holes were added, unlike what happens with a 36
hole hub.) The massive shell on the gearhub was more than
adequate to accomodate the torque resulting from lacing
aligned hub holes to offset rim holes.

I built the wheels cross-6, corresponding to cross-3 on a 36
spoke wheel. When my friend took them home to California, he
thought better of it, and took them apart and laced them 3-leading/3-
trailing before mounting them on his metallic pink Colnago
along with flat bars.

I just love the idea of him rolling around Berkeley on an
Italian racing frame perverted (subverted?) by a gearhub, a
mountain bike handlebar, and what must surely be the
opposite of typical racybike wheels these days.

Chalo Colina