Funny what custom made now means

JFT-<< These seem to be what ten years ago would have been normal racing
wheels (apart from the offset eyelets), but now are special: >><BR><BR>

Geee, aluminum rims, stainl;ess steel spokes in a hub, laced and hopefully
built well. No gaps, no pair

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

And Brass nipples!

-kurd

"Qui si parla Campagnolo " <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

JFT-<< These seem to be what ten years ago would have been normal racing
wheels (apart from the offset eyelets), but now are special: >><BR><BR>

Geee, aluminum rims, stainl;ess steel spokes in a hub, laced and hopefully
built well. No gaps, no pair

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

On 7 Jul 2004 05:13:39 -0700, [email hidden] (John Forrest

Tomlinson) said:

These seem to be what ten years ago would have been normal racing
wheels (apart from the offset eyelets), but now are special:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2004/tour04/tech/?id=usps_stage3/CN-TDF04-Tech36_LA_trek

"Custom made" seems to have acquired the same lack of depth of meaning
in wheels as it has in many other areas; if the item has variable
selections in features, and was ordered with the exact config that the
customer specifically wanted, suddenly it's "custom made".

So, what are they going to call something that was made to spec but
*isn't* available from the normal set of options?

--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Surrealism is a pectinated ranzel.

Werehatrack said:

On 7 Jul 2004 05:13:39 -0700, [email hidden] (John Forrest

Tomlinson) said:

These seem to be what ten years ago would have been normal racing
wheels (apart from the offset eyelets), but now are special:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2004/tour04/tech/?id=usps_stage3/CN-TDF04-Tech36_LA_trek

"Custom made" seems to have acquired the same lack of depth of meaning
in wheels as it has in many other areas; if the item has variable
selections in features, and was ordered with the exact config that the
customer specifically wanted, suddenly it's "custom made".

So, what are they going to call something that was made to spec but
*isn't* available from the normal set of options?

While I agree that the wheel in the photo was chosen for a pave stage
and is a good choice because it's NOT a boutique wheel, the "custom
made" phrase is CN.com's rhetoric, not Bontrager's. It's jounalistic
license, not re-hashed retro-marketing hype (in this case at least).

<< These seem to be what ten years ago would have been normal racing
wheels (apart from the offset eyelets), but now are special:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2004/tour04/tech/?id=usps_stage3/CN-TDF0
4-Tech36_LA_trek >>

Nowadays, if you want to find 32 or 36 spoke wheels laced 3X with SS spokes,
brass nipples, and box rims (especially tubulars) you really do need to order
them custom-built...

[email hidden] (Qui si parla Campagnolo ) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

JFT-<< These seem to be what ten years ago would have been normal racing
wheels (apart from the offset eyelets), but now are special: >><BR><BR>

Geee, aluminum rims, stainl;ess steel spokes in a hub, laced and hopefully
built well. No gaps, no pair

Peter Chisholm

Proof that the Tour would be a lot more fun if Jobst Brandt was
made the route planner, unpaved alpine passes, cart tracks,
no radios or team cars. Real Racin', Hell, fixies would
be even better for a couple stages, make those long flat stages
in the first week more entertaining.

Scott Goldsmith
Channeling Uncle Henri.

Werehatrack said:

So, what are they going to call something that was made to spec but
*isn't* available from the normal set of options?

"Custom fabricated".
--
Rick Onanian

Werehatrack said:

"Custom made" seems to have acquired the same lack of depth of meaning
in wheels as it has in many other areas; if the item has variable
selections in features, and was ordered with the exact config that the
customer specifically wanted, suddenly it's "custom made".

I don't see the problem. Custom wheel builders offer you
options that you might not have in pre-built wheels. I've had
wheels custom made where I chose the hubs, rims and spokes.
None of the stuff was particularly exotic but it was also not
a combination that I could find in pre-built wheels.

I'm probably going to need a new set of wheels in the next
year or so. I haven't yet decided wether I'll have them
custom made or finally take up wheel building myself (and
they'll still be custom made). Unfortunately, my old wheel
builder retired (he was highly skilled and relatively
inexpensive).

Custom never meant "exotic". It also doesn't necessarily mean
stuff that regular consumers can't get. It doesn't even
necessarily mean expensive.

Quoted message said:

So, what are they going to call something that was made to spec but
*isn't* available from the normal set of options?

Do you mean hubs, rims and spokes that are only available to
top professionals? Those are still custom. There's really no
difference other than price.

Werehatrack <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

On 7 Jul 2004 05:13:39 -0700, [email hidden] (John Forrest

Tomlinson) said:

These seem to be what ten years ago would have been normal racing
wheels (apart from the offset eyelets), but now are special:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2004/tour04/tech/?id=usps_stage3/CN-TDF04-Tech36_LA_trek

"Custom made" seems to have acquired the same lack of depth of meaning
in wheels as it has in many other areas; if the item has variable
selections in features, and was ordered with the exact config that the
customer specifically wanted, suddenly it's "custom made".

So, what are they going to call something that was made to spec but
*isn't* available from the normal set of options?

Broadly, this may even argue against a frame sized specifically to a
person's preference as being called "custom." Mostly because the very
next person to order might ask for exactly the same dimensions, and
get the very same frame.

If the parts spec on a particular wheelbuild isn't available for
purchase premade anywhere, isn't asking a wheelbuilder to whip a pair
up a "custom" job? Even if the components are available (readily or
otherwise)? Or is the only thing considered custom stuff like Chalo's
brake set-up - a one-off manufacturing job suited for a very specific
purpose.

I am curious because there seems to be levels of "custom," and the
term is often used quite loosely. I have seen folks in
alt.mountain-bike respec a standard off-the-rack frame with chi-chi
gear and call it "custom." The resulting parts-hanger bike is
certainly one-off in it's first instance.
--
Jonesy

Bill Davidson said:

Werehatrack said:

"Custom made" seems to have acquired the same lack of depth of meaning
in wheels as it has in many other areas; if the item has variable
selections in features, and was ordered with the exact config that the
customer specifically wanted, suddenly it's "custom made".

Custom never meant "exotic". It also doesn't necessarily mean
stuff that regular consumers can't get. It doesn't even
necessarily mean expensive.

Quoted message said:

So, what are they going to call something that was made to spec but
*isn't* available from the normal set of options?

Do you mean hubs, rims and spokes that are only available to
top professionals? Those are still custom. There's really no
difference other than price.

I had a batch of Velocity Deep-V rims specially made to my order with
72 hole drilling. They are otherwise completely normal Deep-Vs, but I
had to negotiate their production with the manufacturer. In my
opinion, those rims are custom made while ordinary handbuilt 32 spoke
wheels are not, even if they use a new permutation of ordinary rims,
ordinary hubs, and ordinary lacing patterns.

To me, custom means the same as bespoke, indicating a thing that
exists only because it was specifically requested from its maker.
It's almost the exact opposite what is often referred to as "custom",
epitomized by neon lights stuck underneath an economy car (or boutique
wheels and a Brand S gruppo fastened to a frame that came out of a
mold).

Chalo Colina

On 7 Jul 2004 23:08:44 -0700, [email hidden]
(Chalo) wrote:

[snip non-trolling material]

Quoted message said:

I had a batch of Velocity Deep-V rims specially made to my order with
72 hole drilling. They are otherwise completely normal Deep-Vs, but I
had to negotiate their production with the manufacturer.

[skip everything past the hook]

Quoted message said:

Chalo Colina

Dear Chalo,

Okay, you've dangled the bait in a casual manner, so now
it's time to reel me in.

Why did you order a batch of 72-hole Velocity Deep-V rims?

Were you collapsing your off-road unicycle off the jumps and
hoping that the aerodynamic qualities of Deep-V rims would
offset the increased drag of the extra spokes?

Had you mistakenly ordered twice as many spokes as you
needed for a 36-spoke wheel-building run?

Inquisitively,

Carl Fogel

Chalo said:

To me, custom means the same as bespoke, indicating a thing that
exists only because it was specifically requested from its maker.
It's almost the exact opposite what is often referred to as "custom",
epitomized by neon lights stuck underneath an economy car (or boutique
wheels and a Brand S gruppo fastened to a frame that came out of a
mold).

Interestingly, Richard Sachs draws a distinction between
"bespoke" and full-on "custom." Speaking of bicycle frames, if
you ask Sachs to build you a frame, he makes one tailored for
your measurements and preference, but with his interpretation of
geometry and construction - you can't request some completely
off-the-wall geometry that he doesn't think will ride like
a Sachs. That's bespoke, like a tailor that works from your
measurements. Similarly, you can't get a Rivendell with
criterium geometry, or TIG welding. A "full custom" frame
presumably would be whatever the customer specifies within
the capabilities of the constructor. If you do contract
machining you can probably think of corresponding examples.

The neon-lights phenomenon you refer to I think of as
"customization" in a J.C. Whitney sense, but not
"custom-made."

Quoted message said:

Dear Chalo,

Why did you order a batch of 72-hole Velocity Deep-V rims?

Could it be because he weighs as much as the sum of 3 Carl Fogels
and 4 Rick Onanians, and is at least twice as strong as that
collection?

Okay, there was a minor element of exaggeration in the above.
--
Rick Onanian

Diablo-<< While I agree that the wheel in the photo was chosen for a pave stage

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Gotta wonder why not on all stages, if strong enough for the pave'? How much
slower would they be is using this wheelset instead of the $4000+ all carbon
stuff? When riding in a big group?

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Bill-<< Custom never meant "exotic". It also doesn't necessarily mean
stuff that regular consumers can't get. It doesn't even
necessarily mean expensive. >><BR><BR>

Just like a suit from Evan the tailor. If ya get a custom suit, it isn't orange
with ruffled shirts and with big shoes, it is suited to you and your needs.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

These seem to be what ten years ago would have been normal

racing

Quoted message said:

wheels (apart from the offset eyelets), but now are special:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2004/tour04/tech/?id=usps_stage3/CN-TDF04-Tech36_LA_trek

Hey, I told you this was going to happen! The botique wheel
manufacturers would start selling conventional wheels as new
technology. It is just like the Michelin "carbon" tires and the
Campagnolo single pivot brakes. Pretty soon threaded steerers
and conventional headsets will come back as new technology.
Maybe the MA2/E2/Mod E will come back, too. Forward, into the
Past! -- Jay Beattie.

[email hidden] (Chalo) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Bill Davidson said:

Werehatrack said:

"Custom made" seems to have acquired the same lack of depth of meaning
in wheels as it has in many other areas; if the item has variable
selections in features, and was ordered with the exact config that the
customer specifically wanted, suddenly it's "custom made".

Custom never meant "exotic". It also doesn't necessarily mean
stuff that regular consumers can't get. It doesn't even
necessarily mean expensive.

Quoted message said:

So, what are they going to call something that was made to spec but
*isn't* available from the normal set of options?

Do you mean hubs, rims and spokes that are only available to
top professionals? Those are still custom. There's really no
difference other than price.

I had a batch of Velocity Deep-V rims specially made to my order with
72 hole drilling. They are otherwise completely normal Deep-Vs, but I
had to negotiate their production with the manufacturer. In my
opinion, those rims are custom made while ordinary handbuilt 32 spoke
wheels are not, even if they use a new permutation of ordinary rims,
ordinary hubs, and ordinary lacing patterns.

To me, custom means the same as bespoke, indicating a thing that
exists only because it was specifically requested from its maker.
It's almost the exact opposite what is often referred to as "custom",
epitomized by neon lights stuck underneath an economy car (or boutique
wheels and a Brand S gruppo fastened to a frame that came out of a
mold).

Chalo Colina

I agree in part. You are right to equate custom with bespoke (and
implicitly to contrast this with off the peg), however, your demand
for specially made components to make something custom is not
necessary.

In the case of wheels the maker is the wheelbuilder. Any specially
requested combination of hubs/spokes and rims is therefore custom made
rather than chosen from a selection of pre-built wheels on offer.

After all, you aren't going to say a suit isn't bespoke because the
tailor made it out of stock cloth and thread are you? A bespoke suit
doesn't have to have specially woven cloth; a bespoke wheel doesn't
necessitate specially manufactured sub-components

Andrew Webster.

Quoted message said:

(Chalo) said:

I had a batch of Velocity Deep-V rims specially made to my order with
72 hole drilling. They are otherwise completely normal Deep-Vs, but I
had to negotiate their production with the manufacturer.

Why did you order a batch of 72-hole Velocity Deep-V rims?

I was struck at some point by the number of options available in 36
hole hubs (gearhubs, drum brakes, and discs) that were not available
in 48 hole versions (that is, in _my_ version). Since it is a
(comparatively) easy matter to double the number of spoke holes in a
hub using CNC, and a comparatively easy matter to calculate odd spoke
lengths using CAD, I reckoned that all I needed was a suitable source
of rims to exercise this option. Double-drilling 36h rims doesn't
work so well due to the staggered holes.

Sun Rims did not want to talk to me. They used to offer blank rims by
request, but they had by then decided that the end user is not their
customer after all. Simon Rakower (Snow Cat) would have been
agreeable to the project, but he only offered 45mm wide singlewall
rims in 26" at that time.

Velocity USA checked in with their Australian facility, and agreed
that they could make them for me for a $250 setup fee at that time (a
few years ago.)

I ignorantly figured that such a superabundance of spokes would allow
me to use whatever lightweight rim I chose, not remembering that the
compression on the rim is proportional to the sum total spoke tension,
and that these rims needed to be heavier than usual just to take the
spoke tension. The folks at Velocity said no way would they drill an
Aerohead with 72 holes, but they were OK with the Deep-V or Dyad.
Since I was thinking "road bike", I chose the Deep-V.

I ordered 10 rims to keep the unit cost within reason, thinking I
could sell some off if I didn't like them after all.

I have to date built only one wheelset using these rims, for a friend
of mine who weighed maybe 140 lbs. and whose interest in them was
purely artistic. For both his wheels and my prospective wheels, I
chose 14/17 and 15/17 gauge spokes, on the basis that the minimum
spoke cross-section would be similar to 36 14ga. spokes. That way I
could be sure of getting enough elastic range from the spokes at
tensions I knew to be attainable.

That first wheelset used a SRAM Spectro 7 gearhub in the rear,
double-drilled, and an American Classic 24h high flange disc brake hub
in the front, triple-drilled. (I did this so that the spoke holes
would still stagger after the additional holes were added, unlike what
happens with a 36 hole hub.) The massive shell on the gearhub was
more than adequate to accomodate the torque resulting from lacing
aligned hub holes to offset rim holes.

I built the wheels cross-6, corresponding to cross-3 on a 36 spoke
wheel. When my friend took them home to California, he thought better
of it, and took them apart and laced them 3-leading/3-trailing before
mounting them on his metallic pink Colnago along with flat bars.

I just love the idea of him rolling around Berkeley on an Italian
racing frame perverted (subverted?) by a gearhub, a mountain bike
handlebar, and what must surely be the opposite of typical racybike
wheels these days.

Chalo Colina