Fugawi UK - Seriously innacurate elevation data

In article <[email hidden]>, Mr Magoo
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Those of you who use Fugawi UK CDs may be interested
in my mail to Fugawi and their reply about their
elevation data...

In other words, if you are interested in " steep hills" -
forget it.

Fat lot of good!

Their other products can use the SRTM (Shuttle Radar
Topography Mission) data which has a point about every 90m
in the UK. Ask them if you can use that with the OS version
or if there will soon be an upgrade that can use it. If not
ask them why not when it is freely available and their other
software uses it...

Quoted message said:

The OS amps are fine, but the elevation data is pretty
pathetic in hilly areas.

Anyone know of a better option (Not that I would probably
buy another piece of software having already spent £180 on
the 4 CDs covering England, Wales and Scotland) ?

If you have not had them long I would explain the problem to
where you bought them and try to get a refund. Then you can
research which of the other products might fit your needs
better. I believe that Memory Map and Anquet both use the OS
height data which is in a 50m grid IIRC.

Trailgauge can use the SRTM data with scanned maps or other
map images. See trailgauge.co.uktrailgauge.co.ukOpen ↗

You might also want to look at Tracklogs offerings which
combine the OS mapping with SRTM data.
tracklogs.co.uktracklogs.co.ukOpen ↗

--

dscs.demon.co.ukdscs.demon.co.ukOpen ↗

Actually interpolating 30 arc sec data would result in this
error. The interval of 900m is completely inadequate to pick
out features this fine
- looking at the range of heights in the 1 km grid
squares around The Wrekin shows that it rises from 150m
to 407m so 900m spot heights would give an average of
around 250m.

Trailgauge uses freely available SRTM data which is 3 arc
second spacing (around 90m) i.e. 10 times the resolution of
Fugawi, it also uses cubic spline interpolation which helps
it recapture some of the curved features that are lost with
interval sampling. Even with this it shows the peak at 395m
rather than 407m although it does quite accurately reflect
the contours on the way up.

I would tend to agree that 30 arc second data is complete
inadequate for planning walking routes - might be OK for
cycling but even that would be doubtful.

Andrew

Mr Magoo said:

Those of you who use Fugawi UK CDs may be interested
in my mail to Fugawi and their reply about their
elevation data...

-----------------ORIGINAL MESSAGE--------------------

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hi,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In Fugawi UK (v3.1.0.473) in the area of the Wrekin
Hill in

Shropshire -

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

SJ62847 08116 (52 40 09.23 N, 2 32 52.26 W) the
elevation information

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

HUGELY in error. The summit of the hill is at 407
metres, but the elevation data using the cursor in
Fugawi says 246m. This is not just

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

effect of the 30 sec resolution of the elevation data
and interpolation

of height

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

data from the nearest 4 spot readings. Looking at
other parts of this significantly-sized area of the
Wrekin hill and ridge it seems the

whole

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

area of the hill has inaccurate elevation data in the
database. Is

there

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

any way I can get better elevation data for this area
and for the UK version of Fugawi in general?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Your web site seems totally biased towards US and
Canada users and

mapping

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and there is little help for Fugawi UK users. Can I
download any more accurate data that is compatible
with Fugawi UK (v3.1.0.473) for the

area

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of Great Britain? If so, where?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I bought Fugawi UK to keep records of my walks and
plot elevation

profiles

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

by marking my routes on the Ordnance Survey maps. I
do not have or use

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

GPS. I am hugely disappointed in the apparent quality
and accuracy of

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

data in the online database. In my 10 mile walk in
the Wrekin area it underestimated the amount of
ascent by a good 40% Or maybe am I doing something
wrong in the way I am using the program?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Best wishes, ... etc

TEXT OF REPLY FROM FUGAWI

Quoted message said:

The elevation data are from the US Department of Defense
with 30 arc second spacing (about 900 metres). Therefore,
it will not be as accurate as the UK maps, especially on
the steep hills. In fact, the contour lines on the UK maps
are approximations themselves. The Ordnance Survey did not
license their elevation data to us. Even if it was the
best elevation data in the world, it would still not be
completely accurate.

END OF TEXT OF REPLY FROM FUGAWI

________________________

In other words, if you are interested in " steep hills" -
forget it.

Fat lot of good!

The OS amps are fine, but the elevation data is pretty
pathetic in hilly areas.

Anyone know of a better option (Not that I would probably
buy another piece of software having already spent £180 on
the 4 CDs covering England, Wales and Scotland) ?

--
--
Andrew Whaley, author of :-

Trailgauge - Shareware 3D GPS Mapping Software
Free Download from trailgauge.comtrailgauge.comOpen ↗

I should have added that averaging between 4 spot heights is
also a particularly poor way to interpolate intervening
heights because the three edge vectors could point in
opposing directions which get averaged out. If you're going
to do simple polygon meshes you're much better to use
triangles rather than rectangles as this retains the
independant vectors.

I found with Trailgauge, using a smooth curved spline
surface for interpolation resulted in the interpolated
heights much more accurately reflecting contours and spot
heights on the map rather than with triangular meshes.

Andrew

--
Andrew Whaley, author of :-

Trailgauge - Shareware 3D GPS Mapping Software
Free Download from trailgauge.comtrailgauge.comOpen ↗

Mr Magoo said:

he elevation data are from the US Department of Defense
with 30 arc second spacing (about 900 metres). Therefore,
it will not be as accurate as the UK maps,

So it's totally useless really.

Quoted message said:

especially on the steep hills. In fact, the contour lines
on the UK maps are approximations themselves.

Indeed they are approximations, but there are approximations
and approximations.

Quoted message said:

The Ordnance Survey did not license their elevation data
to us. Even if it

What they really mean, of course, is that they didn't
pay for the license in order to be able use the OS
elevation data.

--
Marc Cornelius

Mr Magoo said:

Quoted message said:

The OS amps are fine, but the elevation data is pretty
pathetic in hilly areas.

Anyone know of a better option (Not that I would probably
buy another piece of software having already spent £180
on the 4 CDs covering England, Wales and Scotland) ?

If you have not had them long I would explain the problem
to where you bought them and try to get a refund. Then you
can research which of the other products might fit your
needs better. I believe that Memory Map and Anquet both
use the OS height data which is in a 50m grid IIRC.

Yes, the heights in Anquet are very accurate (aside from the
occasional rare discrepancy). Most summit heights are within
2 or 3 metres (although not necessarily in exactly the same
spot - 50k spot heights are not positioned very accurately).
Contour lines are usually within 5m.

Paul
--
wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.ukOpen ↗
wildwales.fsnet.co.ukwildwales.fsnet.co.ukOpen ↗
photosig.comuserphotosOpen ↗

The message <[email hidden]>
from Marc Cornelius <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The Ordnance Survey did not license their elevation data
to us. Even if it

Quoted message said:

What they really mean, of course, is that they didn't
pay for the license in order to be able use the OS
elevation data.

When I enquired some time ago I got the following response:

"The elevation data are from the US Department of Defense
with 30 arc second spacing (about 900 metres). Therefore, it
will not be as accurate as the charts. The Ordnance Survey
would not license their elevation data to us. However, each
year their policy changes and perhaps in the future will
make it available."

A significant difference I think.

--
Roger Chapman so far this year 27 summits New - 16 (Marilyns
4, Sweats 1, Outlying Fells 11) Repeats - 11( Marilyns 2,
Sweats 6, Wainwrights 11) Knackered knee - 3 times

Andrew Whaley said:

Actually interpolating 30 arc sec data would result in this
error. The interval of 900m is completely inadequate to
pick out features this fine
- looking at the range of heights in the 1 km grid
squares around The Wrekin shows that it rises from 150m
to 407m so 900m spot heights would give an average of
around 250m.

Don't know what scale mapping Fugawi is derived from or what
its intended use is. A 900m grid for the DEM seems
inadequate as far as any recreational use goes. If it's
intended to be used as a substitute for 1:25000 mapping then
the height data should be at a comparable resolution.
Ordnance survey map contours aren't based on samples, but
are interpolated, and at 1:25000 a compatible DEM would
probably have to be <50m resolution.

On Fri, 21 May 2004 19:15:17 +0100, Roger wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

The Ordnance Survey would not license their elevation data
to us. However, each year their policy changes and perhaps
in the future will make it available."

[snip]

But they do license it to others. I wonder whether what they
were really saying was "The Ordnance Survey would not
license their elevation data to at a price we were willing
to pay or with conditions that we were willing to accept."

What irritates me is that many moons ago the OS was at
least partly funded by the tax-payer and thus the data is
really ours (i.e. the tax payers'😉 rather than theirs. This
is one area were I think the US have an excellent attitude,
which is: anything paid for by the tax payer essentially
belongs to the taxpayer and the tax payer shouldn't have to
pay twice.

--
Marc Cornelius

Mr Magoo said:

In other words, if you are interested in " steep hills" -
forget it.

Fat lot of good!

The OS amps are fine, but the elevation data is pretty
pathetic in hilly areas.

Anyone know of a better option (Not that I would probably
buy another piece of software having already spent £180 on
the 4 CDs covering England, Wales and Scotland)

I thought when this thread got going that something didn't
sound quite right. If you go to: SJ62847 08116 (52 40 09.23
N, 2 32 52.26 W) it is at 392m according to the 3 sec DED
data. OK, not spot on but fairly close

At the time I didn't have the data but I'm now bringing it
all up to date

To quote Fugawi: In 2000 the Space Shuttle Endeavor measured
the elevation for the world between 56 degrees south and 60
degrees north. Preliminary data have been released with 3
arc second spacing (about 90 meters). These data are
supported by Fugawi beginning with version 3.1.2.548.

fugawi.comded.htmlOpen ↗

which leads you to

ftp://edcsgs9.cr.usgs.gov/pub/data/srtm

Then it gets kind of complicated as you need to know
which files to
D/L but I'll have the full list soon - and could chuck the
necessary files for UK on my website

Not surprised that contacting support came to naught - I had
tremendous problems with an equally simple solution, when we
eventually got there!

. Mark Cavendish Cardiff, Wales

In message <[email hidden]>,
Mark Cavendish <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Then it gets kind of complicated as you need to know
which files to
D/L but I'll have the full list soon - and could chuck the
necessary files for UK on my website

Err... The files have such names as N54W003.hgt.zip which at
a guess means latitude 54 North, 3 West. [For any interested
this happens to be the Lake District]

Thanks for the link BTW. This looks a tremendously
interesting find.

--
Michael Farthing cyclades Software House

In article <[email hidden]>, Mr Magoo
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

What you say is true - and as the originator of the thread,
I had already investigated and found the SRM - Shuttle
Research Mission elevation data. I downloaded a number of
the files for various parts of the UK.

However, Fugawi UK is currently at version 3.1.0.473 and
does NOT import the SRM format elevation data.

There is no later version available on Fugawi's site.
Fugawi UK is NOT the same as the product for use in USA and
Canada. Their versions seem to have more features and be
more up to date, and handle other elevation data sources.

I have mailed Fugawi asking if they intend to add support
to Fugawi SRM data and if not, why not, since the data is
freely available. I have had no reply

Sadly you are at the mercy of Fugawi on this and their
position may be under the influence of their agreement
with the OS.

However it might be a little less confusing for people if
you used the correct name for the data which is SRTM
(Shuttle Radar Topography Mission). For more info on the
mission or data please see:

www2.jpl.nasa.govsrtmOpen ↗

--

dscs.demon.co.ukdscs.demon.co.ukOpen ↗

What you say is true - and as the originator of the thread,
I had already investigated and found the SRM - Shuttle
Research Mission elevation data. I downloaded a number of
the files for various parts of the UK.

However, Fugawi UK is currently at version 3.1.0.473 and
does NOT import the SRM format elevation data.

There is no later version available on Fugawi's site. Fugawi
UK is NOT the same as the product for use in USA and Canada.
Their versions seem to have more features and be more up to
date, and handle other elevation data sources.

I have mailed Fugawi asking if they intend to add support to
Fugawi SRM data and if not, why not, since the data is
freely available. I have had no reply

Fugawi UK uses DTED elevation data (so the manual says). It
also evidentially imports SDTS, DEM, BIL elevation data. I
do not know what these formats are, but I do know that if
you download data from the shuttle Research Mission there is
no way, at least not one I have found, of getting it into
Fugawi UK. If somebody knows otherwise I would be very
interested.

Des

"Mark Cavendish" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mr Magoo said:

In other words, if you are interested in " steep hills" -
forget it.

Fat lot of good!

The OS amps are fine, but the elevation data is pretty
pathetic in hilly areas.

Anyone know of a better option (Not that I would probably
buy another

piece

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of software having already spent £180 on the 4 CDs
covering England, Wales and

Scotland)

Quoted message said:

I thought when this thread got going that something didn't
sound quite right. If you go to: SJ62847 08116 (52 40
09.23 N, 2 32 52.26 W) it is at 392m according to the 3
sec DED data. OK, not spot on but fairly close

At the time I didn't have the data but I'm now bringing it
all up to date

To quote Fugawi: In 2000 the Space Shuttle Endeavor
measured the elevation for the world between 56 degrees
south and 60 degrees north. Preliminary data have been
released with 3 arc second spacing (about 90 meters).
These data are supported by Fugawi beginning with version
3.1.2.548.

fugawi.comded.htmlOpen ↗

which leads you to

ftp://edcsgs9.cr.usgs.gov/pub/data/srtm

Then it gets kind of complicated as you need to know which
files to
D/L but I'll have the full list soon - and could chuck the
necessary files for UK on my website

Not surprised that contacting support came to naught - I
had tremendous problems with an equally simple solution,
when we eventually got there!

. Mark Cavendish Cardiff, Wales

Mark Cavendish said:

Mr Magoo said:

In other words, if you are interested in " steep hills" -
forget it. Fat lot of good!

Quoted message said:

To quote Fugawi: In 2000 the Space Shuttle Endeavor
measured the elevation for the world between 56 degrees
south and 60 degrees north. Preliminary data have been
released with 3 arc second spacing (about 90 meters). These
data are supported by Fugawi beginning with version
3.1.2.548.

fugawi.comded.htmlOpen ↗

which leads you to

ftp://edcsgs9.cr.usgs.gov/pub/data/srtm

Which is the SRTM data which I use with Ozi to good effect.
Beware though that it contains null data areas in steep
terrain and over water due to inherent problems with the
radar. The worst of these can be fixed using Blackart.

See terrainmap.comrm38.htmlOpen ↗
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the
"Westminster Gasworks"
95/284 5/219 c.100/300 (>900m with drop>100m )

Mr Magoo said:

What you say is true - and as the originator of the thread,
I had already investigated and found the SRM - Shuttle
Research Mission elevation data. I downloaded a number of
the files for various parts of the UK.

However, Fugawi UK is currently at version 3.1.0.473 and
does NOT import the SRM format elevation data.

There is no later version available on Fugawi's site.
Fugawi UK is NOT the same as the product for use in USA and
Canada. Their versions seem to have more features and be
more up to date, and handle other elevation data sources.

As the resurrector of the thread - I knew you meant [censored],
just that the update site says: "The latest version of
Fugawi UK software is 3.1.0.473. This supports the Garmin
iQue as well as other upgrades described below" and by
below I thought it meant below (underneath is all the
update info for F3)

As I have F3 I'm OK and have to say the altitude data is
good/useful. On a typical Track (Pen-y-Fan, as it happens)
the GPSr reported 1,362m Ascent 1,353m Descent, 883m Max
whilst the 3sec data 1,369m, 1,366m and 866m . Mark
Cavendish Cardiff, Wales

Mark,

Yes, I'm sure that given the relative luxury of elevation
data every 3 secs you will get much better results than I
have got using the Fugawi UK supplied DTED data - which is
at a resolution of every 30 secs (about 900m). Also
inaccuracies are more likely to be noticed when you are on
small sharp hill rising from a relatively flat area, as the
Wrekin, rather than a more generally hilly area with more
'rolling' hills. I had not particularly noticed the
inaccuracies on earlier walks.

My whole point is if you get a relatively steep, compact
hill like the Wrekin, the elevation data in Fugawi UK being
at only every 900 m makes for potentially very inaccurate
readings depending on the position of the supplied elevation
readings relative to where you are on the peak and how local
heights displayed on the maps in Fugawi UK are being
interpolated from the nearest real elevation readings -
which could be hundreds of meters away.

I have just carefully rechecked my copy of [censored] - the latest
version updated from the Fugawi site - and which formats of
elevation data it supports. They are as follows...

SDTS/ - This is data for USA only evidently at 7.5 minutes
resolution but some areas more detailed, and of no interest
to me - I am in the UK DEM Scale Digital Elevation Models
(DEM) SDTS format

BIL - NED (USA National Elevation Data ) data is
available at every 3m in BIL format but is for USA only -
no good to me

DTED - Worldwide NIMA DTED® Digital Terrain Elevation Data.
Has UK data and this is what the Fugawi UK CDs include, but
elevation data is only at 30 sec ( ~900m) intervals

SRTM (not SRM as I put originally) data, I reiterate, is
readily available but Fugawi UK will NOT import it.

I still maintain that as it stands, with the data it can
use, elevation data that is supplied with or can imported
and used with [censored] makes the data potentially inaccurate and
of limited use in hilly country. As I said originally, my
opinion of using [censored] for walking elevation profiles and
height gains/losses is still:

Quoted message said:

In other words, if you are interested in " steep hills" -
forget it.

Fat lot of good!

Des

"Mark Cavendish" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mr Magoo said:

What you say is true - and as the originator of the
thread, I had already investigated and found the SRM -
Shuttle Research Mission elevation data. I downloaded a
number of the files for various parts of the UK.

However, Fugawi UK is currently at version 3.1.0.473 and
does NOT import

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

SRM format elevation data.

There is no later version available on Fugawi's site.
Fugawi UK is NOT

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

same as the product for use in USA and Canada. Their
versions seem to

have

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

more features and be more up to date, and handle other
elevation data sources.

As the resurrector of the thread - I knew you meant [censored],
just that the update site says: "The latest version of
Fugawi UK software is 3.1.0.473. This supports the Garmin
iQue as well as other upgrades described below" and by
below I thought it meant below (underneath is all the
update info for F3)

As I have F3 I'm OK and have to say the altitude data is
good/useful. On a typical Track (Pen-y-Fan, as it happens)
the GPSr reported 1,362m Ascent 1,353m Descent, 883m Max
whilst the 3sec data 1,369m, 1,366m and 866m . Mark
Cavendish Cardiff, Wales