FTP strategy needed

dontfailmenow said:

First time poster. I am 35. Former running back with good explosive traits. Not so much an endurance athlete, til now. Biking 3 years with 2 summers of intermittent focused training. Discovered this site 2 weeks ago and immediately tried some 20 minute FTP rides on my trainer. Able to perform 2 at 300 (as measured on my mag force trainer) if cadence around 70, HR then 170-175. At cadence of 90-95, I can barely maintain 270 for 2 x 20 and my HR sits 180-185. I know from this site that HR is not a determinant of effort, but the faster mine goes the sooner I am done :o .

Could anyone provide some guidance as to how I should approach most of these training sessions? SHould I work on my weakness-tolerance of higher cadence or should I just ride at the cadence that just feels right? I do have hopes of doing some crit racing next summer, so am cognizant of the benefit of acceleration via leg speed as opposed to grinding it.

Thanks, DFMN

The higher heart rate at higher cadence is to be expected. It's the nature of moving to a more aerobic activity @ higher cadence. You will have an extremely hard time reacting to quick accelerations if you aren't able to spin faster. Certainly take some time and focus on higher cadence efforts. As you're likely getting the threshold improvement benefit of doing your 2x20's at 270, it would make sense to continue doing them there. Don't worry about the numbers so much now if you're not planning to race them until next season. I might try to gradually increase cadence though and do some @ 80, then 85, then 90. I do my 2x20's in the 85-90 range now and have more power and more lasting strength than 9 months ago when I thought I should spin 100s all the time. However, I can spin 100+ pretty easily if/when I need to.

Racing crits next season? Absolutely.

dontfailmenow said:

First time poster. I am 35. Former running back with good explosive traits. Not so much an endurance athlete, til now. Biking 3 years with 2 summers of intermittent focused training. Discovered this site 2 weeks ago and immediately tried some 20 minute FTP rides on my trainer. Able to perform 2 at 300 (as measured on my mag force trainer) if cadence around 70, HR then 170-175. At cadence of 90-95, I can barely maintain 270 for 2 x 20 and my HR sits 180-185. I know from this site that HR is not a determinant of effort, but the faster mine goes the sooner I am done :o .

Could anyone provide some guidance as to how I should approach most of these training sessions? SHould I work on my weakness-tolerance of higher cadence or should I just ride at the cadence that just feels right? I do have hopes of doing some crit racing next summer, so am cognizant of the benefit of acceleration via leg speed as opposed to grinding it.

Thanks, DFMN

You sound, like me. I would assume you are muscular since you mentioned running back and explosive. I have tried to raise my cadence too much, to my own detriment. 70 rpm is a little low but slowly increase your cadence with the FTP sessions. Remember that is why the optimal cadence between 80-100 rpm is so big, due to the muscle make up of many different riders. I tried moving my cadence in the high 90's touching 100's and I did not see my FTP gain any ground. I currently ride in the 84 to 92 rpm range, and I am seeing my FTP gaining ground. Use your big legs and grind compared to the light weights, don't try to match the spin of others.

Trainer rides and threshold intervals are perhaps the two worst times to try and "expand" your range of effective cadence (which you'll surely need to be successful in most mass start races, especially crits).

I would use group rides and/or shorter intervals to accomplish the same purpose, or you can play with a couple minutes at a time at different (uncomfortably high) cadences if you're stuck on a trainer for "filler" workouts like tempo rides.

Using "competitive" group rides has the other obvious benefit of getting you more comfortable with riding around other people, and changing speeds. You shouldn't require too much of this type of work, once every week or two would be fine for most people.

bor1234 said:

You sound, like me. I would assume you are muscular since you mentioned running back and explosive. I have tried to raise my cadence too much, to my own detriment. 70 rpm is a little low but slowly increase your cadence with the FTP sessions. Remember that is why the optimal cadence between 80-100 rpm is so big, due to the muscle make up of many different riders. I tried moving my cadence in the high 90's touching 100's and I did not see my FTP gain any ground. I currently ride in the 84 to 92 rpm range, and I am seeing my FTP gaining ground. Use your big legs and grind compared to the light weights, don't try to match the spin of others.

Thanks to Corpus Cristi. I had a friend who was a football coach in Texas, so I can imagine you know it well. It is interesting how football has some crossover to biking, like on tricky fast mtb courses with lots of spiky hill 20-45 seconds long. I kick butt there. Put a long grinder in front of me and I'm pullin on the ol' jersey for a replacement rider. I will heed your advice. DFMN

jbvcoaching said:

Trainer rides and threshold intervals are perhaps the two worst times to try and "expand" your range of effective cadence (which you'll surely need to be successful in most mass start races, especially crits).

I would use group rides and/or shorter intervals to accomplish the same purpose, or you can play with a couple minutes at a time at different (uncomfortably high) cadences if you're stuck on a trainer for "filler" workouts like tempo rides.

Using "competitive" group rides has the other obvious benefit of getting you more comfortable with riding around other people, and changing speeds. You shouldn't require too much of this type of work, once every week or two would be fine for most people.

JBV-thanks for the input. You touch on some of what I have encountered thus far. Some history. I rode in a local crit twice. "Just for fun" I told myself. Second try I found myself in front after the 200 meter start with two corners down. I knew the front was not the place for me, so drifted to the middle of front pack. O.k. for five laps. Bungeed on the back the next 3. Rode and finished alone ( it was 12 laps). 15 seconds off the leaders. This explains me to a T.
Another example is local group rides. I don't fit in either the A or B group. I thus ride with A's as long as possible. I seem to do well with the speedplay aspect, until they crank it up for like 3 to 5 minutes straight, I may survive a couple, but then it is OTB for me. As a result, I have come to almost always ride alone, as my competitive background and mindset sets me up for demoralization on said rides.

I have good leg speed, just can't maintain it efficiently. I have power, but it doesn't last long. I don't think I have power when pedaling 100-110, though I can do so fairly comfortably from a technique standpoint. I crave short very high power sprints which I rev 130-150 rpm. In my attempts to learn to train I had not previously learned about training at threshold. I did LSD rides and I would do the intervals I was familiar with, which were basically anaerobic in nature. I really lack a sustainable, powerful "upper middle end". As winter is long here, I will be on a trainer alot over the next several, make that many, months.🙁

ANY THOUGHTS HERE? I was planning to do three days a week 20 minute FTP intervals for the next six weeks to initiate my upper middle end and to cause a bit of weight loss. I have not figured out what my next training block will be, but six weeks will only put me in November. I hoped to cycle various blocks alternating each month with 1 month of 20 min FTP's until the spring. Hopefully I can put together 50-60 straight minutes of high quality FTP by next summer.

I will hopefully be able to shorten these as people begin to understand my situation. Feel free to use my messages as endurance training for your concentration. DFMN

dontfailmenow said:

JBV-thanks for the input. You touch on some of what I have encountered thus far. Some history. I rode in a local crit twice. "Just for fun" I told myself. Second try I found myself in front after the 200 meter start with two corners down. I knew the front was not the place for me, so drifted to the middle of front pack. O.k. for five laps. Bungeed on the back the next 3. Rode and finished alone ( it was 12 laps). 15 seconds off the leaders. This explains me to a T.
Another example is local group rides. I don't fit in either the A or B group. I thus ride with A's as long as possible. I seem to do well with the speedplay aspect, until they crank it up for like 3 to 5 minutes straight, I may survive a couple, but then it is OTB for me. As a result, I have come to almost always ride alone, as my competitive background and mindset sets me up for demoralization on said rides.

I have good leg speed, just can't maintain it efficiently. I have power, but it doesn't last long. I don't think I have power when pedaling 100-110, though I can do so fairly comfortably from a technique standpoint. I crave short very high power sprints which I rev 130-150 rpm. In my attempts to learn to train I had not previously learned about training at threshold. I did LSD rides and I would do the intervals I was familiar with, which were basically anaerobic in nature. I really lack a sustainable, powerful "upper middle end". As winter is long here, I will be on a trainer alot over the next several, make that many, months.🙁

ANY THOUGHTS HERE? I was planning to do three days a week 20 minute FTP intervals for the next six weeks to initiate my upper middle end and to cause a bit of weight loss. I have not figured out what my next training block will be, but six weeks will only put me in November. I hoped to cycle various blocks alternating each month with 1 month of 20 min FTP's until the spring. Hopefully I can put together 50-60 straight minutes of high quality FTP by next summer.

I will hopefully be able to shorten these as people begin to understand my situation. Feel free to use my messages as endurance training for your concentration. DFMN

How do I get my replies to follow the specific phrases I am replying to?

dontfailmenow said:

How do I get my replies to follow the specific phrases I am replying to?

Take a look at the bracketed tags in the response window. Enclose each phrase you want to respond to in a set of quote tags, the first with just the word "quote" in square brackets, the second with "/quote" in square brackets.

Very low cadence is a trap, as it is harder on the muscles than higher cadence. So you fool yourself into thinking that you are getting fitter - higher average wattage at lower heart rates, but you are doing it by using a system that is very difficult to train by. I have been there and done that and stayed there, grinding away at low cadences and getting more an more fatigued.

It's the old oxygen transfer system that you need to train and get bigger, and this is done more effectively with higher cadences (and potentially lower wattages in training).

I would argue that 4 weeks of FTP training at 2 x 20 mins at 270 watts with cadences >85, would be more beneficial than the same four weeks (same intervals at 280 w, but with a cadence in the high 60's/70's.

It's the same argument as to why it is easier to generate higher wattage when climbing a hill (it is lower cadence, and therefore more neuro-muscular).

I believe that a watt, is a watt, is a watt. But how you generate them is the key determinant as to whether you get any fitter.

daveryanwyoming said:

Take a look at the bracketed tags in the response window. Enclose each phrase you want to respond to in a set of quote tags, the first with just the word "quote" in square brackets, the second with "/quote" in square brackets.

Thanks.

Philsybob said:

Very low cadence is a trap, as it is harder on the muscles than higher cadence. So you fool yourself into thinking that you are getting fitter - higher average wattage at lower heart rates, but you are doing it by using a system that is very difficult to train by. I have been there and done that and stayed there, grinding away at low cadences and getting more an more fatigued.

It's the old oxygen transfer system that you need to train and get bigger, and this is done more effectively with higher cadences (and potentially lower wattages in training).

I would argue that 4 weeks of FTP training at 2 x 20 mins at 270 watts with cadences >85, would be more beneficial than the same four weeks (same intervals at 280 w, but with a cadence in the high 60's/70's.

It's the same argument as to why it is easier to generate higher wattage when climbing a hill (it is lower cadence, and therefore more neuro-muscular).

I believe that a watt, is a watt, is a watt. But how you generate them is the key determinant as to whether you get any fitter.

Great advice. I knew there had to be others who were experiencing the same thing I was. Ahh the complexity of our engines is amazing. DFMN