frozen water bottles, the solution....

On Nov 18, 2:36 pm, Crescentius Vespasianus <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

If the water in your water bottles
freeze into a block of ice, you have the
wrong water bottles. Get some Polar
water bottles, boil some water right
before you go out the door, and pour
into the Polar. Then you won't be
sucking on a block of ice, when you get
thirsty. Now for coke cans exploding in
the wedge pack, under the seat, due to
freezing, and easy solution is to throw
a chemical heat pad in their with the
cokes, and they won't blow up and make
such a mess in there.

Or just use a sports drink which will lower the freezing temp.

On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 21:37:18 -0800 (PST), Andrew Martin

may have said:

On Nov 18, 2:36 pm, Crescentius Vespasianus <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

If the water in your water bottles
freeze into a block of ice, you have the
wrong water bottles. Get some Polar
water bottles, boil some water right
before you go out the door, and pour
into the Polar. Then you won't be
sucking on a block of ice, when you get
thirsty. Now for coke cans exploding in
the wedge pack, under the seat, due to
freezing, and easy solution is to throw
a chemical heat pad in their with the
cokes, and they won't blow up and make
such a mess in there.

Or just use a sports drink which will lower the freezing temp.

Or just don't live where it gets that cold. Around here, the usual
preference is to start with the bottle's contents frozen so that it
won't be overly hot when you need some water.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

On Nov 18, 5:36 pm, Crescentius Vespasianus <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

If the water in your water bottles
freeze into a block of ice, you have the
wrong water bottles. Get some Polar
water bottles, boil some water right
before you go out the door, and pour
into the Polar. Then you won't be
sucking on a block of ice, when you get
thirsty. Now for coke cans exploding in
the wedge pack, under the seat, due to
freezing, and easy solution is to throw
a chemical heat pad in their with the
cokes, and they won't blow up and make
such a mess in there.

adding some salt to the mix helps in two ways, does not freeze as fast
and helps preventing cramps!
carlos
www.bikingthings.com

On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:02:34 -0800 (PST), [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

On Nov 18, 5:36 pm, Crescentius Vespasianus <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

If the water in your water bottles
freeze into a block of ice, you have the
wrong water bottles. Get some Polar
water bottles, boil some water right
before you go out the door, and pour
into the Polar. Then you won't be
sucking on a block of ice, when you get
thirsty. Now for coke cans exploding in
the wedge pack, under the seat, due to
freezing, and easy solution is to throw
a chemical heat pad in their with the
cokes, and they won't blow up and make
such a mess in there.

adding some salt to the mix helps in two ways, does not freeze as fast
and helps preventing cramps!
carlos
www.bikingthings.com

Dear Carlos,

In terms of freezing, the effect of adding a little salt to a rider's
water bottle is mostly wishful thinking.

Salt does indeed lower the freezing temperature of water, but lowering
the freezing point significantly takes a lot more salt than the pinch
or two that we can tolerate in drinking water.

How much salt can we tolerate? Back when stokers shoveled coal into
steamship furnaces, drinking water was mixed with sea water at a 10-1
ratio to help the hot, sweaty stokers avoid cramps.

Sea water is undrinkable, with only about 35 parts salt to 1,000 parts
water.

All that salt lowers the freezing point only from 32F to 28F.

(Admittedly, freezing salt water is trickier than it looks, since the
frozen water ends up with a much lower salt content. In experiments
using containers smaller than the Atlantic Ocean, the salt content of
the remaining water rises as ice forms on top, lowering the freezing
point slightly as more water is frozen.)

For a more practical example, consider making making ice cream. To
lower the freezing point enough for the external freezing mixture to
make ice cream, you add half a cup of salt or more to two cups of ice
(about 250 ppt) and use it to cool the separate cream mixture:

http://chemistry.about.com/cs/howtos/a/aa020404a.htm

Cooks often make the same mistake about salt raising the boiling point
of water, expecting a dash of salt will raise the boiling point of a
gallon or two of water and cook noodles in record time.

Alas, a dash of salt raises the boiling point of the water less than
the margin of error on a kitchen thermometer:

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/gen01/gen01021.htm

About 0.5C per 58g salt per kg water is the figure mentioned above.
Sea water is only 35g salt per kg water. You'd need about 250 grams of
salt to raise the temperature of 4 quarts of water in a small boiling
pot from 212F to 213F. (Ordinary medium-grain table salt is about 70
grams per quarter cup, so you can toss in almost a cup of salt and get
only a tiny effect.)

Again, the matter is more complicated than expected, since the water
from most faucets is hardly pure and the altitude of the kitchen has
more effect than salt a cook is is likely to dump into the pot.

To return to salt and freezing water, the fish industry uses brine for
cooling fish. Here's a pdf with a nice table showing how much salt (by
weight) is needed to lower the freezing point:

http://seagrant.oregonstate.edu/sgpubs/onlinepubs/h99002.pdf

As you can see, adding salt to the water doesn't lower the freezing
point noticeably until you

The lowest point that can be achieved by adding salt is technically
about -6F, but Fahrenheit used sal ammoniac, not NaCL, and then
sea-salt, which isn't pure NaCl, when creating his 0-32-212 scale:

http://antoine.frostburg.edu/chem/senese/101/measurement/faq/zero-fahrenheit.shtml

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Werehatrack said:

On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 21:37:18 -0800 (PST), Andrew Martin

may have said:

On Nov 18, 2:36 pm, Crescentius Vespasianus <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

If the water in your water bottles
freeze into a block of ice, you have the
wrong water bottles. Get some Polar
water bottles, boil some water right
before you go out the door, and pour
into the Polar. Then you won't be
sucking on a block of ice, when you get
thirsty. Now for coke cans exploding in
the wedge pack, under the seat, due to
freezing, and easy solution is to throw
a chemical heat pad in their with the
cokes, and they won't blow up and make
such a mess in there.

Or just use a sports drink which will lower the freezing temp.

Or just don't live where it gets that cold. Around here, the usual
preference is to start with the bottle's contents frozen so that it
won't be overly hot when you need some water.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

I wanna live where you live!

Here, today, it's dark and damp, but we're in a bit of a heat wave, with the
mercury all the way up at 43F, and noon is two hours away. Yesterday and the
day before were dark and rainy, mercury in the low- mid-30's. I remember with
fondness the week I spent in Austin, Texas in February many years ago (business
trip) and the wonderful-ness of smelling freshly cut grass as I walked to the
lab. Mowing was done in early morning, before it got too hot. Too hot! In
February!

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:02:34 -0800 (PST), [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

On Nov 18, 5:36 pm, Crescentius Vespasianus <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

If the water in your water bottles
freeze into a block of ice, you have the
wrong water bottles. Get some Polar
water bottles, boil some water right
before you go out the door, and pour
into the Polar. Then you won't be
sucking on a block of ice, when you get
thirsty. Now for coke cans exploding in
the wedge pack, under the seat, due to
freezing, and easy solution is to throw
a chemical heat pad in their with the
cokes, and they won't blow up and make
such a mess in there.

Quoted message said:

adding some salt to the mix helps in two ways, does not freeze as fast
and helps preventing cramps!
carlos
www.bikingthings.com

Dear Carlos,

In terms of freezing, the effect of adding a little salt to a rider's
water bottle is mostly wishful thinking.

Salt does indeed lower the freezing temperature of water, but lowering
the freezing point significantly takes a lot more salt than the pinch
or two that we can tolerate in drinking water.

How much salt can we tolerate? Back when stokers shoveled coal into
steamship furnaces, drinking water was mixed with sea water at a 10-1
ratio to help the hot, sweaty stokers avoid cramps.

Sea water is undrinkable, with only about 35 parts salt to 1,000 parts
water.

All that salt lowers the freezing point only from 32F to 28F.

(Admittedly, freezing salt water is trickier than it looks, since the
frozen water ends up with a much lower salt content. In experiments
using containers smaller than the Atlantic Ocean, the salt content of
the remaining water rises as ice forms on top, lowering the freezing
point slightly as more water is frozen.)

For a more practical example, consider making making ice cream. To
lower the freezing point enough for the external freezing mixture to
make ice cream, you add half a cup of salt or more to two cups of ice
(about 250 ppt) and use it to cool the separate cream mixture:

http://chemistry.about.com/cs/howtos/a/aa020404a.htm

Cooks often make the same mistake about salt raising the boiling point
of water, expecting a dash of salt will raise the boiling point of a
gallon or two of water and cook noodles in record time.

Alas, a dash of salt raises the boiling point of the water less than
the margin of error on a kitchen thermometer:

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/gen01/gen01021.htm

About 0.5C per 58g salt per kg water is the figure mentioned above.
Sea water is only 35g salt per kg water. You'd need about 250 grams of
salt to raise the temperature of 4 quarts of water in a small boiling
pot from 212F to 213F. (Ordinary medium-grain table salt is about 70
grams per quarter cup, so you can toss in almost a cup of salt and get
only a tiny effect.)

Again, the matter is more complicated than expected, since the water
from most faucets is hardly pure and the altitude of the kitchen has
more effect than salt a cook is is likely to dump into the pot.

To return to salt and freezing water, the fish industry uses brine for
cooling fish. Here's a pdf with a nice table showing how much salt (by
weight) is needed to lower the freezing point:

http://seagrant.oregonstate.edu/sgpubs/onlinepubs/h99002.pdf

As you can see, adding salt to the water doesn't lower the freezing
point noticeably until you

The lowest point that can be achieved by adding salt is technically
about -6F, but Fahrenheit used sal ammoniac, not NaCL, and then
sea-salt, which isn't pure NaCl, when creating his 0-32-212 scale:

http://antoine.frostburg.edu/chem/senese/101/measurement/faq/zero-fah...

Cheers,

Carl Fogel- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks, very informative. Totally off-topic, but I'm reading "Against
the Day" by Pynchon, and I think you'd like it.

As for the OP, I'd recommend a Camel Back-type bladder hydration
between your jersey and whatever gear you're wearing in those temps.

/s

Before I summit Mt. Whitney one year, it was 17 degrees at upper base camp.
Our water bottles froze immediately as soon as we got out of our tents. I
quickly packed my nalgene bottle close to my body, insulated with-in my
goose down vest and sandwiched between my underlay of polartec. My bottles
didn't freeze until I opened them up to drink. I had to quickly take a sip
and do the insulation again.
-tom

Michael said:

Werehatrack said:

Or just don't live where it gets that cold. Around here, the usual
preference is to start with the bottle's contents frozen so that it
won't be overly hot when you need some water.

I wanna live where you live!

Greater Houston? Ugh! Maybe the winter is OK, but the heat and humidity
in the other seasons would be unbearable. I can not understand why the
Gulf Coast is inhabited by hominids.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 18:43:01 -0600, Tom Sherman

may have said:

Michael said:

Werehatrack said:

Or just don't live where it gets that cold. Around here, the usual
preference is to start with the bottle's contents frozen so that it
won't be overly hot when you need some water.

I wanna live where you live!

Greater Houston? Ugh! Maybe the winter is OK, but the heat and humidity
in the other seasons would be unbearable. I can not understand why the
Gulf Coast is inhabited by hominids.

Well, some of us find Houston's cool, dry climate refreshing, and
glory in the marvelous change of seasons. The lack of murderous
rush-hour traffic was just a pleasant bonus that I still appreciate.
Oh, and unlike where I grew up, it's not flat; there are actually
places where you can see that the land over yonder is several feet
lower in elevation!

But then, I moved here from Miami.

It's all a matter of perspective.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.