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Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking

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  1. Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking Michael
    Vandeman, Ph.D. March 5, 2004

    1. Why do people mountain bike?
    a. They say that using a bike allows them to get much
    farther, in the same amount of time, than they can
    by walking. They also maintain constant pressure on
    land managers, to open more and more trails to
    bikes. Of course, all of these trails are already
    open to them, if they choose to walk. They also
    frequently claim that closing trails to bikes
    "excludes" them from the parks. This could only be
    true if they were unable to walk. Of course, they
    are able to walk. There's nothing inherently wrong
    with bicycling instead of walking; we all like to
    save energy, when it's appropriate. Use of a bicycle
    to replace automobile use is obviously beneficial.
    However, by the same token, replacing hiking with
    mountain biking is obviously not beneficial.
    b. They are interested in the quantity of nature they
    can see, rather than the quality of their
    experience. While riding a bike, especially over
    terrain as rough as a trail, one has to be
    constantly paying attention to not crashing. That
    make it almost impossible to notice much else. By
    contrast, a hiker feels the ground, hears all the
    sounds and smells all the odors of nature and can
    stop instantly, if he/she finds something
    interesting. The brain thrives on stimulation. A
    biker has to travel several times as far as a hiker,
    to get the same stimulation as a hiker. (And, by the
    same token, motorcyclists have to travel several
    times as far as a bicyclist, and an auto user
    several times as far as a motorcyclist, since they
    are enclosed in a metal box.)
    c. They are interested in thrills. Riding a bike on a
    trail, especially a trail containing many obstacles,
    or a trail one is not familiar with, is very
    challenging. (But if mountain biking is the high
    point of your week, as it seems to be for many
    mountain bikers, you must be leading a pretty dull
    life, off of the bike!)
    d. They are interested in building mountain biking
    skills and competing with other mountain bikers. The
    thrill of racing drives people to spend more money
    on their bike, and ride it harder and more often.
    Racing, up to and including the Olympics, drives a
    lot of mountain biking. Of course, it is also
    extremely harmful to the parks and natural areas
    that are used for practice! It is hard to think of
    any other (legal) use of public lands, other than
    hunting, that is as harmful as mountain biking.

    2. What is driving the sport of mountain biking? Besides
    the attraction for participants, manufacturers and
    retailers of mountain bikes and mountain biking
    accessories, as well as "adventure" travel guides, make
    a lot of money from promoting mountain biking. Even some
    auto manufacturers (e.g. Subaru) promote and sponsor
    mountain biking, and try to use its popularity to sell
    more cars. The tourism industry also promotes mountain
    biking, among other attractions.

    3. What harm does mountain biking do?
    a. Most obvious is the acceleration of erosion. Knobby
    tires rip into the soil, loosening it and allowing
    rain to wash it away. They also create V-shaped
    grooves that make walking difficult or even
    dangerous. The mechanical advantage given by the
    gears and ball bearings allow a mountain biker to
    travel several times as fast as a hiker. Given their
    increased weight (rider plus bike), this results in
    vastly increased momentum, and hence much greater
    horizontal (shearing) forces on the soil. (Witness
    the skid marks from stops, starts, and turns.)
    According to Newton, every action has an equal and
    opposite reaction. Mountain bikes were built much
    stronger than other bikes, so that they could
    withstand the greater forces they were subject to on
    rough trails. These same forces, therefore, are
    being applied to the trails! To give a definite
    number, the winner of a 20-mile race here in Briones
    Regional Park averaged 13 MPH (the speed limit is 15
    MPH -- where were the park rangers?).
    b. A hiker must be very careful not to accidentally
    step on small animals and plants on the trail. For
    a mountain biker, it is almost impossible to avoid
    killing countless animals and plants on and under
    the trail. They have to pay attention to
    controlling the bike, and can't afford to look
    carefully at what is on the trail, especially when
    travelling fast. And even if they happen to see,
    for example, a snake, it is hard for them to stop
    in time to avoid killing it. A hiker, when crossing
    a creek, will try to avoid getting wet, by crossing
    on stepping stones or logs. Mountain bikers, on the
    other hand, simply ride right through the creek
    bed, crushing any animals or plants that happen to
    be there. Mountain biking magazines are full of
    photos of mountain bikers throwing up spray, as
    they barrel through creeks. Not only do bikes
    destroy animals and plants as they ride across
    streams, they ride through streams stirring up
    sediment. The sediment in the water interferes with
    the oxygen uptake by aquatic life, for example,
    killing fish- and frog eggs. Young fish, insects,
    amphibians, and aquatic microorganisms are
    extremely sensitive to sediment in water.
    c. Bikes also allow people to travel several times as
    far as a hiker. This translates into several times
    the impacts, both on the trail and on the wildlife
    (to say nothing of the other trail users). Existing
    parklands are already inadequate to protect the
    wildlife that live there. When they are crisscrossed
    by mountain bikers and legal or illegal trails,
    their habitat becomes even more inadequate. Mountain
    bikers frequently advertise rides of 20-50 miles or
    more. Have you ever tried to walk that far in a day?
    In other words, allowing bikes in a park greatly
    increases human presence in that park and drives
    wildlife further from the resources that they need
    to survive, including water, food, and mates.
    d. Due to their width and speed, bikes can't safely
    pass each other on narrow trails. Therefore,
    policies that permit mountain biking also result in
    more habitat destruction, as trails are widened by
    bikers (or by hikers and equestrians jumping out of
    their way).
    e. Knobby mountain bike tires are ideal for carrying
    mud, and consequently exotic plants, fungi, and
    other organisms from place to place, resulting in
    the spread of exotic invasive species, such as weeds
    and Sudden Oak Death.
    f. Mountain biking is driving the very young and old
    off of the trails and hence out of the parks.
    Even able-bodied hikers and equestrians fear for
    their safety, and don’t enjoy sharing the trails
    with bikes. (The mountain bikers claim that they
    are simply being selfish and "unwilling to
    share", but actually they have no problem sharing
    trails with mountain bikers; it is only their
    bikes that are a problem!)
    g. Mountain bikes, which are obviously built to go
    anywhere, teach children and anyone else who sees
    them that the rough treatment of nature is
    acceptable. This undoubtedly has a negative effect
    on people's treatment of nature.
    h. In order to mitigate bike-caused erosion, park
    managers have been resorting to extreme measures --
    even in some cases putting a plastic matrix or other
    exotic material under the trail (e.g. in Pleasanton
    Ridge Regional Preserve, near Pleasanton,
    California)! It's hard to imagine that this will
    have a beneficial effect on the park and its
    wildlife….

    4. Mountain bikers claim that their sport has no greater
    environmental impact than hiking. Is that true? If you
    read the "studies" that make that claim, you find that
    they don't really compare the impacts of hiking and
    mountain biking, but only the impacts per foot. If, for
    a moment, we assume that the studies are correct in
    their having equivalent impacts per foot, it would still
    follow that mountain biking has far greater impact per
    person, since mountain bikers typically travel so much
    farther than hikers. Besides overlooking distances
    travelled, those "studies" almost all ignore impacts on
    wildlife. And they don't study mountain biking under
    normal conditions -- only at a very slow speed.
    Actually, the comparison with hiking is irrelevant. It
    would only be relevant if we planned to allow only one
    of the two, and were considering which of the two is
    more harmful. In fact, no one is considering banning
    hiking. We are only considering adding mountain biking.
    Therefore, the only relevant question is, "Is mountain
    biking harmful"? (Of course, it is!) There is only one
    truly scientific study that I know of that compares the
    impacts of hiking and mountain biking. It found that
    mountain biking has a greater impact on elk than hiking
    (Wisdom, M. J., H. K. Preisler, N. J. Cimon, B. K.
    Johnson. 2004. Effects of Off-Road Recreation on Mule
    Deer and Elk. Transactions of the North American
    Wildlife and Natural Resource Conference 69: in press.
    Wisdom et al. 2).

    5. Where should mountain biking allowed? A couple of role
    models for wildlife protection are Yosemite National
    Park and East Bay Municipal Utility District (in
    Alameda and Contra Costa counties, California). They
    both restrict bicycles to paved roads, where they
    can't do much harm. Somehow bicyclists have managed to
    enjoy their sport for over a hundred years, without
    riding off-road.

    6. What should the policy be on trails? Closed to bikes,
    unless marked open. Signs that say "No Bikes" are
    quickly and repeatedly ripped out of the ground by
    mountain bikers.

    7. Isn't it discriminatory to allow hikers and equestrians
    on trails, but not mountain bikers? Mountain bikers love
    to say this, apparently because they think it will gain
    them some sympathy. The truth is that mountain bikers
    have exactly the same access to trails that everyone
    else has! It is only their bikes that are banned. If
    mountain bikers were really being discriminated against,
    they could easily go to court to gain access. However …
    they already have access to every trail in the world!

    8. Don't I have a right to mountain bike on all public
    lands? I am a taxpayer! The public has the right,
    through its elected representatives, to restrict how
    land is used. A federal court has already ruled that
    there is no right to mountain bike. It is a privilege,
    and any land manager who gives a good reason (such as
    safety or protecting the environment) can keep bikes off
    of trails (see
    home.pacbell.netmtb10.htm).

    9. Don't mountain bikers do some good things, like trail
    construction and trail maintenance? Trail construction
    destroys wildlife habitat both directly (by killing
    plants and animals) and indirectly (by reducing the size
    of the intervening "islands" of habitat). Moreover,
    mountain bikers favor trails that are "twisty"
    (sinuous), bumpy, and full of obstacles that provide
    thrills for mountain bikers. Such designs increase
    habitat destruction (by lengthening the trail) and make
    the trails less useful for hikers and equestrians. Trail
    maintenance sounds good, until you realize that it would
    hardly be necessary, if bikes weren't allowed there. The
    mountain bikers are the main reason why trail
    maintenance is necessary! Trails used only by hikers
    require hardly any maintenance. Therefore, admitting
    bicycles to a park greatly increases its cost of
    maintenance. Nothing is really "free", including trail
    construction and maintenance. (How does the saying go?
    "Beware of Trojans bearing gifts"?)

    10. But don't mountain bikers provide added safety, by being
    able to quickly summon help in the event of an
    emergency? I would rather trust in a cell phone, than a
    speeding mountain biker. Besides, natural areas are
    already one of the safest places you can be. In over 50
    years of hiking and backpacking, I have never witnessed
    any situation requiring emergency aid. Most people go to
    natural areas partly for solitude. If we wanted to be
    around large, fast-moving pieces of machinery, we would
    stay in the city!

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits
    to humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the
    previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
    construction.)

    home.pacbell.netmjvande

  2. <yaawwwwnnnnnn

  3. This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
    --------------020502060000000507010306
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

    Mike,

    I don't know why you posted this here if for no other reason
    but to get the folks here upset. Your article is full of
    lies and assumptions that lump all mountbikers into a group
    that you picks the worst examples in an attempt to label us
    all as Destroyers of nature. Taken your approach to a
    subject. I could say with equal authority that humans are
    bad because:

    * The kill anything for pleasure
    * They Rape, Murder, Steal, lie, cheat
    * Love [censored] and anything carnal
    * Pollute the planet, Destroy Rain forests
    * They are all greedy
    * Driver SUV's for pleasure and to intimidate others.
    * Get the point.....

    It is unfortunate that you are so biased that you didn't
    take the time to get your facts strait and publish fair
    assessment of moutainbikers. I wish I had the time to point
    out all of the silly things you state as absolute fact, but
    it would be as waste of my time because people like you will
    never look at anything objectively.

    -Steve (MTBt at large)

    Mike Vandeman said:

    Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking Michael
    Vandeman, Ph.D. March 5, 2004

    1. Why do people mountain bike?
    a. They say that using a bike allows them to get much
    farther, in the same amount of time, than they can
    by walking. They also maintain constant pressure on
    land managers, to open more and more trails to
    bikes. Of course, all of these trails are already
    open to them, if they choose to walk. They also
    frequently claim that closing trails to bikes
    "excludes" them from the parks. This could only be
    true if they were unable to walk. Of course, they
    are able to walk. There's nothing inherently wrong
    with bicycling instead of walking; we all like to
    save energy, when it's appropriate. Use of a bicycle
    to replace automobile use is obviously beneficial.
    However, by the same token, replacing hiking with
    mountain biking is obviously not beneficial.
    b. They are interested in the quantity of nature they
    can see, rather than the quality of their
    experience. While riding a bike, especially over
    terrain as rough as a trail, one has to be
    constantly paying attention to not crashing. That
    make it almost impossible to notice much else. By
    contrast, a hiker feels the ground, hears all the
    sounds and smells all the odors of nature and can
    stop instantly, if he/she finds something
    interesting. The brain thrives on stimulation. A
    biker has to travel several times as far as a hiker,
    to get the same stimulation as a hiker. (And, by the
    same token, motorcyclists have to travel several
    times as far as a bicyclist, and an auto user
    several times as far as a motorcyclist, since they
    are enclosed in a metal box.)
    c. They are interested in thrills. Riding a bike on a
    trail, especially a trail containing many obstacles,
    or a trail one is not familiar with, is very
    challenging. (But if mountain biking is the high
    point of your week, as it seems to be for many
    mountain bikers, you must be leading a pretty dull
    life, off of the bike!)
    d. They are interested in building mountain biking
    skills and competing with other mountain bikers. The
    thrill of racing drives people to spend more money
    on their bike, and ride it harder and more often.
    Racing, up to and including the Olympics, drives a
    lot of mountain biking. Of course, it is also
    extremely harmful to the parks and natural areas
    that are used for practice! It is hard to think of
    any other (legal) use of public lands, other than
    hunting, that is as harmful as mountain biking.

    2. What is driving the sport of mountain biking? Besides
    the attraction for participants, manufacturers and
    retailers of mountain bikes and mountain biking
    accessories, as well as "adventure" travel guides, make
    a lot of money from promoting mountain biking. Even
    some auto manufacturers (e.g. Subaru) promote and
    sponsor mountain biking, and try to use its popularity
    to sell more cars. The tourism industry also promotes
    mountain biking, among other attractions.

    3. What harm does mountain biking do?
    a. Most obvious is the acceleration of erosion. Knobby
    tires rip into the soil, loosening it and allowing
    rain to wash it away. They also create V-shaped
    grooves that make walking difficult or even
    dangerous. The mechanical advantage given by the
    gears and ball bearings allow a mountain biker to
    travel several times as fast as a hiker. Given their
    increased weight (rider plus bike), this results in
    vastly increased momentum, and hence much greater
    horizontal (shearing) forces on the soil. (Witness
    the skid marks from stops, starts, and turns.)
    According to Newton, every action has an equal and
    opposite reaction. Mountain bikes were built much
    stronger than other bikes, so that they could
    withstand the greater forces they were subject to on
    rough trails. These same forces, therefore, are
    being applied to the trails! To give a definite
    number, the winner of a 20-mile race here in Briones
    Regional Park averaged 13 MPH (the speed limit is 15
    MPH -- where were the park rangers?).
    b. A hiker must be very careful not to accidentally
    step on small animals and plants on the trail. For a
    mountain biker, it is almost impossible to avoid
    killing countless animals and plants on and under
    the trail. They have to pay attention to controlling
    the bike, and can't afford to look carefully at what
    is on the trail, especially when travelling fast.
    And even if they happen to see, for example, a
    snake, it is hard for them to stop in time to avoid
    killing it. A hiker, when crossing a creek, will try
    to avoid getting wet, by crossing on stepping stones
    or logs. Mountain bikers, on the other hand, simply
    ride right through the creek bed, crushing any
    animals or plants that happen to be there. Mountain
    biking magazines are full of photos of mountain
    bikers throwing up spray, as they barrel through
    creeks. Not only do bikes destroy animals and plants
    as they ride across streams, they ride through
    streams stirring up sediment. The sediment in the
    water interferes with the oxygen uptake by aquatic
    life, for example, killing fish- and frog eggs.
    Young fish, insects, amphibians, and aquatic
    microorganisms are extremely sensitive to sediment
    in water.
    c. Bikes also allow people to travel several times as
    far as a hiker. This translates into several times
    the impacts, both on the trail and on the wildlife
    (to say nothing of the other trail users). Existing
    parklands are already inadequate to protect the
    wildlife that live there. When they are crisscrossed
    by mountain bikers and legal or illegal trails,
    their habitat becomes even more inadequate. Mountain
    bikers frequently advertise rides of 20-50 miles or
    more. Have you ever tried to walk that far in a day?
    In other words, allowing bikes in a park greatly
    increases human presence in that park and drives
    wildlife further from the resources that they need
    to survive, including water, food, and mates.
    d. Due to their width and speed, bikes can't safely
    pass each other on narrow trails. Therefore,
    policies that permit mountain biking also result in
    more habitat destruction, as trails are widened by
    bikers (or by hikers and equestrians jumping out of
    their way).
    e. Knobby mountain bike tires are ideal for carrying
    mud, and consequently exotic plants, fungi, and
    other organisms from place to place, resulting in
    the spread of exotic invasive species, such as weeds
    and Sudden Oak Death.
    f. Mountain biking is driving the very young and old
    off of the trails and hence out of the parks. Even
    able-bodied hikers and equestrians fear for their
    safety, and don't enjoy sharing the trails with
    bikes. (The mountain bikers claim that they are
    simply being selfish and "unwilling to share", but
    actually they have no problem sharing trails with
    mountain bikers; it is only their bikes that are a
    problem!)
    g. Mountain bikes, which are obviously built to go
    anywhere, teach children and anyone else who sees
    them that the rough treatment of nature is
    acceptable. This undoubtedly has a negative effect
    on people's treatment of nature.
    h. In order to mitigate bike-caused erosion, park
    managers have been resorting to extreme measures --
    even in some cases putting a plastic matrix or other
    exotic material under the trail (e.g. in Pleasanton
    Ridge Regional Preserve, near Pleasanton,
    California)! It's hard to imagine that this will
    have a beneficial effect on the park and its
    wildlife....

    4. Mountain bikers claim that their sport has no greater
    environmental impact than hiking. Is that true? If you
    read the "studies" that make that claim, you find that
    they don't really compare the impacts of hiking and
    mountain biking, but only the impacts per foot. If, for
    a moment, we assume that the studies are correct in
    their having equivalent impacts per foot, it would
    still follow that mountain biking has far greater
    impact per person, since mountain bikers typically
    travel so much farther than hikers. Besides overlooking
    distances travelled, those "studies" almost all ignore
    impacts on wildlife. And they don't study mountain
    biking under normal conditions -- only at a very slow
    speed. Actually, the comparison with hiking is
    irrelevant. It would only be relevant if we planned to
    allow only one of the two, and were considering which
    of the two is more harmful. In fact, no one is
    considering banning hiking. We are only considering
    adding mountain biking. Therefore, the only relevant
    question is, "Is mountain biking harmful"? (Of course,
    it is!) There is only one truly scientific study that I
    know of that compares the impacts of hiking and
    mountain biking. It found that mountain biking has a
    greater impact on elk than hiking (Wisdom, M. J., H. K.
    Preisler, N. J. Cimon, B. K. Johnson. 2004. Effects of
    Off-Road Recreation on Mule Deer and Elk. Transactions
    of the North American Wildlife and Natural Resource
    Conference 69: in press. Wisdom et al. 2).

    5. Where should mountain biking allowed? A couple of role
    models for wildlife protection are Yosemite National
    Park and East Bay Municipal Utility District (in
    Alameda and Contra Costa counties, California). They
    both restrict bicycles to paved roads, where they can't
    do much harm. Somehow bicyclists have managed to enjoy
    their sport for over a hundred years, without riding
    off-road.

    6. What should the policy be on trails? Closed to bikes,
    unless marked open. Signs that say "No Bikes" are
    quickly and repeatedly ripped out of the ground by
    mountain bikers.

    7. Isn't it discriminatory to allow hikers and equestrians
    on trails, but not mountain bikers? Mountain bikers
    love to say this, apparently because they think it will
    gain them some sympathy. The truth is that mountain
    bikers have exactly the same access to trails that
    everyone else has! It is only their bikes that are
    banned. If mountain bikers were really being
    discriminated against, they could easily go to court to
    gain access. However ... they already have access to
    every trail in the world!

    8. Don't I have a right to mountain bike on all public
    lands? I am a taxpayer! The public has the right,
    through its elected representatives, to restrict how
    land is used. A federal court has already ruled that
    there is no right to mountain bike. It is a privilege,
    and any land manager who gives a good reason (such as
    safety or protecting the environment) can keep bikes
    off of trails (see
    home.pacbell.netmtb10.htm).

    9. Don't mountain bikers do some good things, like trail
    construction and trail maintenance? Trail construction
    destroys wildlife habitat both directly (by killing
    plants and animals) and indirectly (by reducing the
    size of the intervening "islands" of habitat).
    Moreover, mountain bikers favor trails that are
    "twisty" (sinuous), bumpy, and full of obstacles that
    provide thrills for mountain bikers. Such designs
    increase habitat destruction (by lengthening the trail)
    and make the trails less useful for hikers and
    equestrians. Trail maintenance sounds good, until you
    realize that it would hardly be necessary, if bikes
    weren't allowed there. The mountain bikers are the main
    reason why trail maintenance is necessary! Trails used
    only by hikers require hardly any maintenance.
    Therefore, admitting bicycles to a park greatly
    increases its cost of maintenance. Nothing is really
    "free", including trail construction and maintenance.
    (How does the saying go? "Beware of Trojans bearing
    gifts"?)

    10. But don't mountain bikers provide added safety, by
    being able to quickly summon help in the event of an
    emergency? I would rather trust in a cell phone, than a
    speeding mountain biker. Besides, natural areas are
    already one of the safest places you can be. In over 50
    years of hiking and backpacking, I have never witnessed
    any situation requiring emergency aid. Most people go
    to natural areas partly for solitude. If we wanted to
    be around large, fast-moving pieces of machinery, we
    would stay in the city!

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-
    limits to humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent
    the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
    construction.)

    home.pacbell.netmjvande

    --------------020502060000000507010306 Content-Type:
    text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

    <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01
    Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <meta http-equiv="Content-
    Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1">
    <title></title> </head> <body text="#000000"
    bgcolor="#ffffff"> Mike,<br> <br> I don't know why you
    posted this here if for no other reason but to get the folks
    here upset.<br> Your article is full of lies and assumptions
    that lump all mountbikers into a group that you <br>
    picks the worst examples in an attempt to label us all
    as Destroyers of nature. Taken your<br> approach
    to a subject. I could say with equal authority that humans
    are bad because:<br> <ul>
    <li> The kill anything for pleasure</li>
    <lii> They Rape, Murder, Steal, lie,
    cheat</li>
    <liii>Love [censored] and anything carnal<br> </li>
    <liv>Pollute the planet, Destroy Rain forests</li>
    <lv>They are all greedy</li>
    <lvi>Driver SUV's for pleasure and to intimidate
    others.</li>
    <lvii>Get the point.....<br> </li> </ul> It is unfortunate
    that you are so biased that you didn't take the time
    to get your facts strait and publish fair
    assessment<br> of moutainbikers. I wish I had
    the time to point out all of the silly things you
    state as absolute fact, but it would<br> be as waste
    of my time because people like you will never look
    at anything objectively. <br> <br> -Steve
    (MTBt at large)<br> <br> Mike Vandeman wrote:<br>
    <blockquote type="cite" cite="midej9ca054f40hgchnht-
    [email hidden]"> <pre wrap="">Frequently
    Asked Questions about Mountain Biking Michael
    Vandeman, Ph.D. March 5, 2004

    1. Why do people mountain bike?
    a. They say that using a bike allows them to get much
    farther, in the same amount of time, than they can
    by walking. They also maintain constant pressure on
    land managers, to open more and more trails to
    bikes. Of course, all of these trails are already
    open to them, if they choose to walk. They also
    frequently claim that closing trails to bikes
    "excludes" them from the parks. This could only be
    true if they were unable to walk. Of course, they
    are able to walk. There's nothing inherently wrong
    with bicycling instead of walking; we all like to
    save energy, when it's appropriate. Use of a bicycle
    to replace automobile use is obviously beneficial.
    However, by the same token, replacing hiking with
    mountain biking is obviously not beneficial.
    b. They are interested in the quantity of nature they
    can see, rather than the quality of their
    experience. While riding a bike, especially over
    terrain as rough as a trail, one has to be
    constantly paying attention to not crashing. That
    make it almost impossible to notice much else. By
    contrast, a hiker feels the ground, hears all the
    sounds and smells all the odors of nature and can
    stop instantly, if he/she finds something
    interesting. The brain thrives on stimulation. A
    biker has to travel several times as far as a hiker,
    to get the same stimulation as a hiker. (And, by the
    same token, motorcyclists have to travel several
    times as far as a bicyclist, and an auto user
    several times as far as a motorcyclist, since they
    are enclosed in a metal box.)
    c. They are interested in thrills. Riding a bike on a
    trail, especially a trail containing many obstacles,
    or a trail one is not familiar with, is very
    challenging. (But if mountain biking is the high
    point of your week, as it seems to be for many
    mountain bikers, you must be leading a pretty dull
    life, off of the bike!)
    d. They are interested in building mountain biking
    skills and competing with other mountain bikers. The
    thrill of racing drives people to spend more money
    on their bike, and ride it harder and more often.
    Racing, up to and including the Olympics, drives a
    lot of mountain biking. Of course, it is also
    extremely harmful to the parks and natural areas
    that are used for practice! It is hard to think of
    any other (legal) use of public lands, other than
    hunting, that is as harmful as mountain biking.

    2. What is driving the sport of mountain biking? Besides
    the attraction for participants, manufacturers and
    retailers of mountain bikes and mountain biking
    accessories, as well as "adventure" travel guides, make
    a lot of money from promoting mountain biking. Even some
    auto manufacturers (e.g. Subaru) promote and sponsor
    mountain biking, and try to use its popularity to sell
    more cars. The tourism industry also promotes mountain
    biking, among other attractions.

    3. What harm does mountain biking do?
    a. Most obvious is the acceleration of erosion. Knobby
    tires rip into the soil, loosening it and allowing
    rain to wash it away. They also create V-shaped
    grooves that make walking difficult or even
    dangerous. The mechanical advantage given by the
    gears and ball bearings allow a mountain biker to
    travel several times as fast as a hiker. Given their
    increased weight (rider plus bike), this results in
    vastly increased momentum, and hence much greater
    horizontal (shearing) forces on the soil. (Witness
    the skid marks from stops, starts, and turns.)
    According to Newton, every action has an equal and
    opposite reaction. Mountain bikes were built much
    stronger than other bikes, so that they could
    withstand the greater forces they were subject to on
    rough trails. These same forces, therefore, are
    being applied to the trails! To give a definite
    number, the winner of a 20-mile race here in Briones
    Regional Park averaged 13 MPH (the speed limit is 15
    MPH -- where were the park rangers?).
    b. A hiker must be very careful not to accidentally
    step on small animals and plants on the trail. For
    a mountain biker, it is almost impossible to avoid
    killing countless animals and plants on and under
    the trail. They have to pay attention to
    controlling the bike, and can't afford to look
    carefully at what is on the trail, especially when
    travelling fast. And even if they happen to see,
    for example, a snake, it is hard for them to stop
    in time to avoid killing it. A hiker, when crossing
    a creek, will try to avoid getting wet, by crossing
    on stepping stones or logs. Mountain bikers, on the
    other hand, simply ride right through the creek
    bed, crushing any animals or plants that happen to
    be there. Mountain biking magazines are full of
    photos of mountain bikers throwing up spray, as
    they barrel through creeks. Not only do bikes
    destroy animals and plants as they ride across
    streams, they ride through streams stirring up
    sediment. The sediment in the water interferes with
    the oxygen uptake by aquatic life, for example,
    killing fish- and frog eggs. Young fish, insects,
    amphibians, and aquatic microorganisms are
    extremely sensitive to sediment in water.
    c. Bikes also allow people to travel several times as
    far as a hiker. This translates into several times
    the impacts, both on the trail and on the wildlife
    (to say nothing of the other trail users). Existing
    parklands are already inadequate to protect the
    wildlife that live there. When they are crisscrossed
    by mountain bikers and legal or illegal trails,
    their habitat becomes even more inadequate. Mountain
    bikers frequently advertise rides of 20-50 miles or
    more. Have you ever tried to walk that far in a day?
    In other words, allowing bikes in a park greatly
    increases human presence in that park and drives
    wildlife further from the resources that they need
    to survive, including water, food, and mates.
    d. Due to their width and speed, bikes can't safely
    pass each other on narrow trails. Therefore,
    policies that permit mountain biking also result in
    more habitat destruction, as trails are widened by
    bikers (or by hikers and equestrians jumping out of
    their way).
    e. Knobby mountain bike tires are ideal for carrying
    mud, and consequently exotic plants, fungi, and
    other organisms from place to place, resulting in
    the spread of exotic invasive species, such as weeds
    and Sudden Oak Death.
    f. Mountain biking is driving the very young and old
    off of the trails and hence out of the parks. Even
    able-bodied hikers and equestrians fear for their
    safety, and don’t enjoy sharing the trails
    with bikes. (The mountain bikers claim that they
    are simply being selfish and "unwilling to share",
    but actually they have no problem sharing trails
    with mountain bikers; it is only their bikes that
    are a problem!)
    g. Mountain bikes, which are obviously built to go
    anywhere, teach children and anyone else who sees
    them that the rough treatment of nature is
    acceptable. This undoubtedly has a negative effect
    on people's treatment of nature.
    h. In order to mitigate bike-caused erosion, park
    managers have been resorting to extreme measures --
    even in some cases putting a plastic matrix or other
    exotic material under the trail (e.g. in Pleasanton
    Ridge Regional Preserve, near Pleasanton,
    California)! It's hard to imagine that this will
    have a beneficial effect on the park and its
    wildlife….

    4. Mountain bikers claim that their sport has no greater
    environmental impact than hiking. Is that true? If you
    read the "studies" that make that claim, you find that
    they don't really compare the impacts of hiking and
    mountain biking, but only the impacts per foot. If, for
    a moment, we assume that the studies are correct in
    their having equivalent impacts per foot, it would still
    follow that mountain biking has far greater impact per
    person, since mountain bikers typically travel so much
    farther than hikers. Besides overlooking distances
    travelled, those "studies" almost all ignore impacts on
    wildlife. And they don't study mountain biking under
    normal conditions -- only at a very slow speed.
    Actually, the comparison with hiking is irrelevant. It
    would only be relevant if we planned to allow only one
    of the two, and were considering which of the two is
    more harmful. In fact, no one is considering banning
    hiking. We are only considering adding mountain biking.
    Therefore, the only relevant question is, "Is mountain
    biking harmful"? (Of course, it is!) There is only one
    truly scientific study that I know of that compares the
    impacts of hiking and mountain biking. It found that
    mountain biking has a greater impact on elk than hiking
    (Wisdom, M. J., H. K. Preisler, N. J. Cimon, B. K.
    Johnson. 2004. Effects of Off-Road Recreation on Mule
    Deer and Elk. Transactions of the North American
    Wildlife and Natural Resource Conference 69: in press.
    Wisdom et al. 2).

    5. Where should mountain biking allowed? A couple of role
    models for wildlife protection are Yosemite National
    Park and East Bay Municipal Utility District (in
    Alameda and Contra Costa counties, California). They
    both restrict bicycles to paved roads, where they
    can't do much harm. Somehow bicyclists have managed to
    enjoy their sport for over a hundred years, without
    riding off-road.

    6. What should the policy be on trails? Closed to bikes,
    unless marked open. Signs that say "No Bikes" are
    quickly and repeatedly ripped out of the ground by
    mountain bikers.

    7. Isn't it discriminatory to allow hikers and equestrians
    on trails, but not mountain bikers? Mountain bikers
    love to say this, apparently because they think it will
    gain them some sympathy. The truth is that mountain
    bikers have exactly the same access to trails that
    everyone else has! It is only their bikes that are
    banned. If mountain bikers were really being
    discriminated against, they could easily go to court to
    gain access. However … they already have access
    to every trail in the world!

    8. Don't I have a right to mountain bike on all public
    lands? I am a taxpayer! The public has the right,
    through its elected representatives, to restrict how
    land is used. A federal court has already ruled that
    there is no right to mountain bike. It is a privilege,
    and any land manager who gives a good reason (such as
    safety or protecting the environment) can keep bikes off
    of trails (see <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="h-
    ttp://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/mtb10.htm">home.p-home.p-
    acbell.net/mjvande/mtb10.htm</a>😉.

    9. Don't mountain bikers do some good things, like trail
    construction and trail maintenance? Trail construction
    destroys wildlife habitat both directly (by killing
    plants and animals) and indirectly (by reducing the size
    of the intervening "islands" of habitat). Moreover,
    mountain bikers favor trails that are "twisty"
    (sinuous), bumpy, and full of obstacles that provide
    thrills for mountain bikers. Such designs increase
    habitat destruction (by lengthening the trail) and make
    the trails less useful for hikers and equestrians. Trail
    maintenance sounds good, until you realize that it would
    hardly be necessary, if bikes weren't allowed there. The
    mountain bikers are the main reason why trail
    maintenance is necessary! Trails used only by hikers
    require hardly any maintenance. Therefore, admitting
    bicycles to a park greatly increases its cost of
    maintenance. Nothing is really "free", including trail
    construction and maintenance. (How does the saying go?
    "Beware of Trojans bearing gifts"?)

    10. But don't mountain bikers provide added safety, by being
    able to quickly summon help in the event of an
    emergency? I would rather trust in a cell phone, than a
    speeding mountain biker. Besides, natural areas are
    already one of the safest places you can be. In over 50
    years of hiking and backpacking, I have never witnessed
    any situation requiring emergency aid. Most people go to
    natural areas partly for solitude. If we wanted to be
    around large, fast-moving pieces of machinery, we would
    stay in the city!

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits
    to humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the
    previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
    construction.)

    <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="home.pacbell.-home.pacbell.-
    net/mjvande">home.pacbell.netmjvande</a> </pre>
    </blockquote> </body> </html>

    --------------020502060000000507010306--

  4. Stephen Baker said:

    <yaawwwwnnnnnn>

    --
    -BB- To reply to me, drop the attitude (from my e-mail
    address, at least)

  5. "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking Michael
    Vandeman, Ph.D. March 5, 2004


    <SNIP Textbook Examples of Straw-man logic>

    Everyone mark this post. No doubt it is what you will be
    referred back to for months to come if you ask MV any
    question of interest. You will almost certainly be
    responded to with :

    1. IRRELEVANT!

    or

    2. I have already answered that in my FAQ.

    What you will not get is a straight-forward response.

    -Chuck W

  6. It is much safer to live in a bubble. 🙄

  7. Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in
    :"]news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    b. (But if mountain biking is the high point of your week,
    as it seems to be for many mountain bikers, you must be
    leading a pretty dull life, off of the bike!)

    And the high point of your week is.....?

  8. On Sat, 15 May 2004 20:50:06 GMT, Steve Douglas <[email hidden]> wrote:

    .Mike, . .I don't know why you posted this here if for no
    other reason but to get .the folks here upset. .Your article
    is full of lies and assumptions that lump all mountbikers
    .into a group that you .picks the worst examples in an
    attempt to label us all as Destroyers of .nature. Taken your
    .approach to a subject. I could say with equal authority
    that humans are .bad because: .
    . * The kill anything for pleasure
    . * They Rape, Murder, Steal, lie, cheat
    . * Love [censored] and anything carnal
    . * Pollute the planet, Destroy Rain forests
    . * They are all greedy
    . * Driver SUV's for pleasure and to intimidate others.
    . * Get the point..... . .It is unfortunate that you are
    so biased that you didn't take the time .to get your
    facts strait and publish fair assessment .of
    moutainbikers. I wish I had the time to point out all
    of the silly .things you state as absolute fact, but it
    would .be as waste of my time because people like you
    will never look at .anything objectively.

    But more importantly, because you CAN'T refute a single
    statement! You had the time to write BS, but you don't have
    the "time" to tell the truth? Right.

    .-Steve (MTBt at large) . .Mike Vandeman wrote: .
    .>Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
    .>Michael Vandeman, Ph.D. .>March 5, 2004 .> .>1. Why do
    people mountain bike? .>a. They say that using a bike
    allows them to get much farther, in the same .>amount of
    time, than they can by walking. They also maintain constant
    pressure .>on land managers, to open more and more trails
    to bikes. Of course, all of these .>trails are already open
    to them, if they choose to walk. They also frequently
    .>claim that closing trails to bikes "excludes" them from
    the parks. This could .>only be true if they were unable to
    walk. Of course, they are able to walk. .>There's nothing
    inherently wrong with bicycling instead of walking; we all
    like .>to save energy, when it's appropriate. Use of a
    bicycle to replace automobile .>use is obviously
    beneficial. However, by the same token, replacing hiking
    with .>mountain biking is obviously not beneficial. .>b.
    They are interested in the quantity of nature they can see,
    rather than .>the quality of their experience. While riding
    a bike, especially over terrain as .>rough as a trail, one
    has to be constantly paying attention to not crashing.
    .>That make it almost impossible to notice much else. By
    contrast, a hiker feels .>the ground, hears all the sounds
    and smells all the odors of nature and can stop
    .>instantly, if he/she finds something interesting. The
    brain thrives on .>stimulation. A biker has to travel
    several times as far as a hiker, to get the .>same
    stimulation as a hiker. (And, by the same token,
    motorcyclists have to .>travel several times as far as a
    bicyclist, and an auto user several times as .>far as a
    motorcyclist, since they are enclosed in a metal box.) .>c.
    They are interested in thrills. Riding a bike on a trail,
    especially a .>trail containing many obstacles, or a trail
    one is not familiar with, is very .>challenging. (But if
    mountain biking is the high point of your week, as it seems
    .>to be for many mountain bikers, you must be leading a
    pretty dull life, off of .>the bike!) .>d. They are
    interested in building mountain biking skills and competing
    .>with other mountain bikers. The thrill of racing drives
    people to spend more .>money on their bike, and ride it
    harder and more often. Racing, up to and .>including the
    Olympics, drives a lot of mountain biking. Of course, it is
    also .>extremely harmful to the parks and natural areas
    that are used for practice! It .>is hard to think of any
    other (legal) use of public lands, other than hunting,
    .>that is as harmful as mountain biking. .> .>2. What is
    driving the sport of mountain biking? Besides the
    attraction for .>participants, manufacturers and retailers
    of mountain bikes and mountain biking .>accessories, as
    well as "adventure" travel guides, make a lot of money from
    .>promoting mountain biking. Even some auto manufacturers
    (e.g. Subaru) promote .>and sponsor mountain biking, and
    try to use its popularity to sell more cars. .>The tourism
    industry also promotes mountain biking, among other
    attractions. .> .>3. What harm does mountain biking do?
    .>a. Most obvious is the acceleration of erosion. Knobby
    tires rip into the .>soil, loosening it and allowing rain
    to wash it away. They also create V-shaped .>grooves that
    make walking difficult or even dangerous. The mechanical
    advantage .>given by the gears and ball bearings allow a
    mountain biker to travel several .>times as fast as a
    hiker. Given their increased weight (rider plus bike), this
    .>results in vastly increased momentum, and hence much
    greater horizontal .>(shearing) forces on the soil.
    (Witness the skid marks from stops, starts, and .>turns.)
    According to Newton, every action has an equal and opposite
    reaction. .>Mountain bikes were built much stronger than
    other bikes, so that they could .>withstand the greater
    forces they were subject to on rough trails. These same
    .>forces, therefore, are being applied to the trails! To
    give a definite number, .>the winner of a 20-mile race here
    in Briones Regional Park averaged 13 MPH (the .>speed limit
    is 15 MPH -- where were the park rangers?). .>b. A hiker
    must be very careful not to accidentally step on small
    animals .>and plants on the trail. For a mountain biker, it
    is almost impossible to avoid .>killing countless animals
    and plants on and under the trail. They have to pay
    .>attention to controlling the bike, and can't afford to
    look carefully at what is .>on the trail, especially when
    travelling fast. And even if they happen to see, .>for
    example, a snake, it is hard for them to stop in time to
    avoid killing it. A .>hiker, when crossing a creek, will
    try to avoid getting wet, by crossing on .>stepping stones
    or logs. Mountain bikers, on the other hand, simply ride
    right .>through the creek bed, crushing any animals or
    plants that happen to be there. .>Mountain biking magazines
    are full of photos of mountain bikers throwing up .>spray,
    as they barrel through creeks. Not only do bikes destroy
    animals and .>plants as they ride across streams, they ride
    through streams stirring up .>sediment. The sediment in the
    water interferes with the oxygen uptake by aquatic .>life,
    for example, killing fish- and frog eggs. Young fish,
    insects, amphibians, .>and aquatic microorganisms are
    extremely sensitive to sediment in water. .>c. Bikes also
    allow people to travel several times as far as a hiker.
    This .>translates into several times the impacts, both on
    the trail and on the wildlife .>(to say nothing of the
    other trail users). Existing parklands are already
    .>inadequate to protect the wildlife that live there. When
    they are crisscrossed .>by mountain bikers and legal or
    illegal trails, their habitat becomes even more
    .>inadequate. Mountain bikers frequently advertise rides of
    20-50 miles or more. .>Have you ever tried to walk that far
    in a day? In other words, allowing bikes in .>a park
    greatly increases human presence in that park and drives
    wildlife further .>from the resources that they need to
    survive, including water, food, and mates. .>d. Due to
    their width and speed, bikes can't safely pass each other
    on .>narrow trails. Therefore, policies that permit
    mountain biking also result in .>more habitat destruction,
    as trails are widened by bikers (or by hikers and
    .>equestrians jumping out of their way). .>e. Knobby
    mountain bike tires are ideal for carrying mud, and
    consequently .>exotic plants, fungi, and other organisms
    from place to place, resulting in the .>spread of exotic
    invasive species, such as weeds and Sudden Oak Death. .>f.
    Mountain biking is driving the very young and old off of
    the trails and .>hence out of the parks. Even able-bodied
    hikers and equestrians fear for their .>safety, and don't
    enjoy sharing the trails with bikes. (The mountain bikers
    .>claim that they are simply being selfish and "unwilling
    to share", but actually .>they have no problem sharing
    trails with mountain bikers; it is only their bikes .>that
    are a problem!) .>g. Mountain bikes, which are obviously
    built to go anywhere, teach children .>and anyone else who
    sees them that the rough treatment of nature is acceptable.
    .>This undoubtedly has a negative effect on people's
    treatment of nature. .>h. In order to mitigate bike-caused
    erosion, park managers have been .>resorting to extreme
    measures -- even in some cases putting a plastic matrix or
    .>other exotic material under the trail (e.g. in Pleasanton
    Ridge Regional .>Preserve, near Pleasanton, California)!
    It's hard to imagine that this will have .>a beneficial
    effect on the park and its wildlife.... .> .>4. Mountain
    bikers claim that their sport has no greater environmental
    impact .>than hiking. Is that true? If you read the
    "studies" that make that claim, you .>find that they don't
    really compare the impacts of hiking and mountain biking,
    .>but only the impacts per foot. If, for a moment, we
    assume that the studies are .>correct in their having
    equivalent impacts per foot, it would still follow that
    .>mountain biking has far greater impact per person, since
    mountain bikers .>typically travel so much farther than
    hikers. Besides overlooking distances .>travelled, those
    "studies" almost all ignore impacts on wildlife. And they
    don't .>study mountain biking under normal conditions --
    only at a very slow speed. .>Actually, the comparison with
    hiking is irrelevant. It would only be relevant if .>we
    planned to allow only one of the two, and were considering
    which of the two .>is more harmful. In fact, no one is
    considering banning hiking. We are only .>considering
    adding mountain biking. Therefore, the only relevant
    question is, .>"Is mountain biking harmful"? (Of course, it
    is!) There is only one truly .>scientific study that I know
    of that compares the impacts of hiking and .>mountain
    biking. It found that mountain biking has a greater impact
    on elk than .>hiking (Wisdom, M. J., H. K. Preisler, N. J.
    Cimon, B. K. Johnson. 2004. Effects .>of Off-Road
    Recreation on Mule Deer and Elk. Transactions of the North
    American .>Wildlife and Natural Resource Conference 69: in
    press. Wisdom .>et al. 2). .> .>5. Where should mountain
    biking allowed? A couple of role models for wildlife
    .>protection are Yosemite National Park and East Bay
    Municipal Utility District .>(in Alameda and Contra Costa
    counties, California). They both restrict bicycles .>to
    paved roads, where they can't do much harm. Somehow
    bicyclists have managed .>to enjoy their sport for over a
    hundred years, without riding off-road. .> .>6. What should
    the policy be on trails? Closed to bikes, unless marked
    open. .>Signs that say "No Bikes" are quickly and
    repeatedly ripped out of the ground by .>mountain bikers.
    .> .>7. Isn't it discriminatory to allow hikers and
    equestrians on trails, but not .>mountain bikers? Mountain
    bikers love to say this, apparently because they think .>it
    will gain them some sympathy. The truth is that mountain
    bikers have exactly .>the same access to trails that
    everyone else has! It is only their bikes that .>are
    banned. If mountain bikers were really being discriminated
    against, they .>could easily go to court to gain access.
    However ... they already have access to .>every trail in
    the world! .> .>8. Don't I have a right to mountain bike on
    all public lands? I am a taxpayer! .>The public has the
    right, through its elected representatives, to restrict how
    .>land is used. A federal court has already ruled that
    there is no right to .>mountain bike. It is a privilege,
    and any land manager who gives a good reason .>(such as
    safety or protecting the environment) can keep bikes off of
    trails (see .>home.pacbell.netmtb10.htm).
    .> .>9. Don't mountain bikers do some good things, like
    trail construction and trail .>maintenance? Trail
    construction destroys wildlife habitat both directly (by
    .>killing plants and animals) and indirectly (by reducing
    the size of the .>intervening "islands" of habitat).
    Moreover, mountain bikers favor trails that .>are "twisty"
    (sinuous), bumpy, and full of obstacles that provide
    thrills for .>mountain bikers. Such designs increase
    habitat destruction (by lengthening the .>trail) and make
    the trails less useful for hikers and equestrians. Trail
    .>maintenance sounds good, until you realize that it would
    hardly be necessary, if .>bikes weren't allowed there. The
    mountain bikers are the main reason why trail .>maintenance
    is necessary! Trails used only by hikers require hardly any
    .>maintenance. Therefore, admitting bicycles to a park
    greatly increases its cost .>of maintenance. Nothing is
    really "free", including trail construction and
    .>maintenance. (How does the saying go? "Beware of Trojans
    bearing gifts"?) .> .>10. But don't mountain bikers provide
    added safety, by being able to quickly .>summon help in the
    event of an emergency? I would rather trust in a cell
    phone, .>than a speeding mountain biker. Besides, natural
    areas are already one of the .>safest places you can be. In
    over 50 years of hiking and backpacking, I have .>never
    witnessed any situation requiring emergency aid. Most
    people go to natural .>areas partly for solitude. If we
    wanted to be around large, fast-moving pieces .>of
    machinery, we would stay in the city! .> .>=== .>I am
    working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    .>humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the
    previous 8 .>years fighting auto dependence and road
    construction.) .> .>home.pacbell.netmjvande .> .>

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits
    to humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the
    previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
    construction.)

    home.pacbell.netmjvande

  9. "Brett Jaffee" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in
    :"]news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    b. (But if mountain biking is the high point of your
    week, as it seems to be for many mountain bikers, you
    must be leading a pretty dull life, off of the bike!)

    And the high point of your week is.....?

    dont feed the trolls.

    --
    Posted by news://news.nb.nu

  10. "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking Michael
    Vandeman, Ph.D. March 5, 2004

    1. Why do people mountain bike?

    It is a lot of fun.

    Quoted message said:

    2. What is driving the sport of mountain biking?

    It is a lot of fun.

    Quoted message said:

    3. What harm does mountain biking do?

    Eventually the bike chain wears down and needs to be
    replaced. Thats the most siginifcant harm done. Also,
    occasionally some nutcase will freak out and barrage news
    groups with B.S. (his name is M.V.).

    Quoted message said:

    4. Mountain bikers claim that their sport has no greater
    environmental


    impact

    Quoted message said:

    than hiking. Is that true?

    Yes, anyone who says otherwise is a known LIAR.

    Quoted message said:


    5. Where should mountain biking allowed?

    On sanctioned trails, paved roads, M.V.'s lawn.

    Quoted message said:

    6. What should the policy be on trails?

    Have fun!

    Quoted message said:


    7. Isn't it discriminatory to allow hikers and
    equestrians on trails, but


    not

    Quoted message said:

    mountain bikers?

    Yep, might as well say "no blacks allowed"

    Quoted message said:

    8. Don't I have a right to mountain bike on all public
    lands? I am a


    taxpayer!

    Sure you do, on sanctioned public trails, it's legal!

    Quoted message said:


    9. Don't mountain bikers do some good things, like trail
    construction and


    trail

    Quoted message said:

    maintenance?

    Yeah, not to mention how much tland they preserve from being
    torn down to construct strip malls and gas stations!

    Quoted message said:

    10. But don't mountain bikers provide added safety, by
    being able to


    quickly

    Quoted message said:

    summon help in the event of an emergency?

    Yep, plus they often carry water and tools etc.

    Quoted message said:

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-
    limits to humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent
    the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
    construction.)

    home.pacbell.netmjvande

  11. On Mon, 17 May 2004 09:11:04 -0500, "Jason" <[email hidden]> wrote:

    . ."Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    ."]news:[email hidden]... .>
    Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking .> Michael
    Vandeman, Ph.D. .> March 5, 2004 .> .> 1. Why do people
    mountain bike? .> . .It is a lot of fun.

    That's not a good excuse to allow the destruction of
    wildlife habitat.

    .> 2. What is driving the sport of mountain biking? . .It is
    a lot of fun. . .> 3. What harm does mountain biking do? .
    .Eventually the bike chain wears down and needs to be
    replaced. Thats the .most siginifcant harm done. Also,
    occasionally some nutcase will freak out .and barrage news
    groups with B.S. (his name is M.V.). . . .> 4. Mountain
    bikers claim that their sport has no greater environmental
    .impact .> than hiking. Is that true? . .Yes, anyone who
    says otherwise is a known LIAR.

    You don't have any scientific evidence for that. The only
    scientific study ever done on this issue found that bikers
    have greater impacts than hikers.

    .> 5. Where should mountain biking allowed? . .On sanctioned
    trails, paved roads, M.V.'s lawn. . .> 6. What should the
    policy be on trails? . .Have fun! . .> .> 7. Isn't it
    discriminatory to allow hikers and equestrians on trails,
    but .not .> mountain bikers? . .Yep, might as well say "no
    blacks allowed" . .> 8. Don't I have a right to mountain
    bike on all public lands? I am a .taxpayer! . .Sure you do,
    on sanctioned public trails, it's legal! . .> .> 9. Don't
    mountain bikers do some good things, like trail construction
    and .trail .> maintenance? . .Yeah, not to mention how much
    tland they preserve from being torn down to .construct strip
    malls and gas stations! . .> 10. But don't mountain bikers
    provide added safety, by being able to .quickly .> summon
    help in the event of an emergency? . .Yep, plus they often
    carry water and tools etc.

    Like a hiker really needs tools.... Right. Actually,
    mountain bikers are more likely to be the one needing help,
    since they are more often injured, and more seriously.
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits
    to humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the
    previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
    construction.)

    home.pacbell.netmjvande

  12. Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking Michael
    Vandeman, Ph.D. March 5, 2004

    1. Why do people mountain bike?

    It's fun, good exercise, gets people away from the stress of
    workaday life, allows people to see and experience nature,
    and helps people understand the joys of using and
    maintaining simple, elegant machines.

    Quoted message said:

    2. What is driving the sport of mountain biking?

    See 1.), above.

    Quoted message said:

    3. What harm does mountain biking do?

    About the same harm per mile as hiking, and the same
    kinds of harm.

    Quoted message said:

    4. Mountain bikers claim that their sport has no greater
    environmental impact than hiking. Is that true?

    No. Mountain biking actually does less aggregate harm,
    because there are many fewer mountain bikers than hikers. In
    addition, many trails are hiker-only, while very few are
    restricted to only mountain biking. Hiking is more
    widespread, and has many more participants, and thus is much
    more harmful to the environment.

    Quoted message said:

    5. Where should mountain biking allowed?

    On trails open to mountain bikes, and on paved roads.

    Quoted message said:

    6. What should the policy be on trails?

    Bikers should yield to all other users on multi-use trails.
    Bikes should always stay on the trail, and bikers should
    always remain in control of their bikes and not skid or
    otherwise damage the trail. Bikers should only use trails
    open to bikes.

    Quoted message said:

    7. Isn't it discriminatory to allow hikers and
    equestrians on trails, but not mountain bikers?

    If the trail system is on private land, or cannot support
    bicycle traffic, no. Otherwise, yes.

    Quoted message said:

    8. Don't I have a right to mountain bike on all public
    lands?

    Only in the parts approved for use by those on bikes. Bikes
    are not approved in National Parks, for instance.

    Quoted message said:

    9. Don't mountain bikers do some good things, like trail
    construction and trail maintenance?

    Among other things, mountain bikers also keep land from
    being developed or paved over. They often advocate for
    retaining lands as undeveloped, or use private timber land
    for trail systems (as opposed to public forests).

    Quoted message said:

    10. But don't mountain bikers provide added safety, by
    being able to quickly summon help in the event of an
    emergency?

    In rugged places without cell phone reception, a mountain
    biker might be the difference between life and death. While
    this event might be rare, the possiblity is real. More than
    that, mountain bikers often carry tools and small amounts of
    minor medical supplies. For minor, non-life-threatening
    injuries, a mountain biker's kit could help bring comfort to
    an injured trail user.

    Thank you for allowing me to honestly answer your questions,

    Robert F. Jones

  13. Quoted post said:

    Originally posted by Jonesy
    Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking Michael
    Vandeman, Ph.D. March 5, 2004

    1. Why do people mountain bike?



    It's fun, good exercise, gets people away from the stress of
    workaday life, allows people to see and experience nature,
    and helps people understand the joys of using and
    maintaining simple, elegant machines.

    Quoted message said:

    2. What is driving the sport of mountain biking?



    See 1.), above.

    Quoted message said:

    3. What harm does mountain biking do?



    About the same harm per mile as hiking, and the same
    kinds of harm.

    Quoted message said:

    4. Mountain bikers claim that their sport has no greater
    environmental impact than hiking. Is that true?



    No. Mountain biking actually does less aggregate harm,
    because there are many fewer mountain bikers than hikers. In
    addition, many trails are hiker-only, while very few are
    restricted to only mountain biking. Hiking is more
    widespread, and has many more participants, and thus is much
    more harmful to the environment.

    Quoted message said:

    5. Where should mountain biking allowed?



    On trails open to mountain bikes, and on paved roads.

    Quoted message said:

    6. What should the policy be on trails?



    Bikers should yield to all other users on multi-use trails.
    Bikes should always stay on the trail, and bikers should
    always remain in control of their bikes and not skid or
    otherwise damage the trail. Bikers should only use trails
    open to bikes.

    Quoted message said:

    7. Isn't it discriminatory to allow hikers and
    equestrians on trails, but not mountain bikers?



    If the trail system is on private land, or cannot support
    bicycle traffic, no. Otherwise, yes.

    Quoted message said:

    8. Don't I have a right to mountain bike on all public
    lands?



    Only in the parts approved for use by those on bikes. Bikes
    are not approved in National Parks, for instance.

    Quoted message said:

    9. Don't mountain bikers do some good things, like trail
    construction and trail maintenance?



    Among other things, mountain bikers also keep land from
    being developed or paved over. They often advocate for
    retaining lands as undeveloped, or use private timber land
    for trail systems (as opposed to public forests).

    Quoted message said:

    10. But don't mountain bikers provide added safety, by
    being able to quickly summon help in the event of an
    emergency?



    In rugged places without cell phone reception, a mountain
    biker might be the difference between life and death. While
    this event might be rare, the possiblity is real. More than
    that, mountain bikers often carry tools and small amounts of
    minor medical supplies. For minor, non-life-threatening
    injuries, a mountain biker's kit could help bring comfort to
    an injured trail user.

    Thank you for allowing me to honestly answer your questions,

    Robert F. Jones


    Very eloquently put.

  14. "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking Michael
    Vandeman, Ph.D. March 5, 2004

    1. Why do people mountain bike? Snip <
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-
    limits to humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent
    the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
    construction.)

    home.pacbell.netmjvande

    Mike, asking yourself these questions in the mirror over and
    over does not make them "Frequently Asked Questions," just
    stupid ones.

  15. Yeah!!! I heard all that stuff on Art Bell. Must be
    true....whirrrrrrrrrrchurnnnnnnnnnnnspinnnnnn

    hahahahahahaahahahahahahaaha

    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits
    to morons ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the last
    900 Years fighting idiots and cretins.)

  16. Sweety-Pie says:

    Quoted message said:

    (I spent the last 900 Years fighting idiots and cretins.)

    Not having much luck there, are ya? ;-)

  17. On 17 May 2004 10:03:47 -0700, [email hidden] (Jonesy) wrote:

    .Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>... .>
    Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking .> Michael
    Vandeman, Ph.D. .> March 5, 2004 .> .> 1. Why do people
    mountain bike? . .It's fun, good exercise, gets people away
    from the stress of workaday .life, allows people to see and
    experience nature, and helps people .understand the joys of
    using and maintaining simple, elegant machines.

    So does hiking. That doesn't explain why people mountain
    bike (hint: they are too LAZY to walk).

    .> 2. What is driving the sport of mountain biking? . .See
    1.), above. . .> 3. What harm does mountain biking do? .
    .About the same harm per mile as hiking, and the same kinds
    of harm. . .> 4. Mountain bikers claim that their sport has
    no greater environmental impact .> than hiking. Is that
    true? . .No. Mountain biking actually does less aggregate
    harm, because there .are many fewer mountain bikers than
    hikers. In addition, many trails .are hiker-only, while very
    few are restricted to only mountain biking.
    . Hiking is more widespread, and has many more participants,
    and thus .is much more harmful to the environment.
    . .> 5. Where should mountain biking allowed? . .On trails
    open to mountain bikes, and on paved roads. . .> 6. What
    should the policy be on trails? . .Bikers should yield to
    all other users on multi-use trails.

    But, in fact, they never do! They force everyone else to
    jump off the trail, and complain if they don't jump far
    enough or fast enough.

    Bikes .should always stay on the trail, and bikers should
    always remain in .control of their bikes and not skid or
    otherwise damage the trail. .Bikers should only use trails
    open to bikes. . .> 7. Isn't it discriminatory to allow
    hikers and equestrians on trails, but not .> mountain
    bikers? . .If the trail system is on private land, or
    cannot support bicycle .traffic, no. Otherwise, yes.

    Neither. Mountain bikers are ALWAYS allowed on trails, liar.

    .> 8. Don't I have a right to mountain bike on all
    public lands? . .Only in the parts approved for use by
    those on bikes. Bikes are not .approved in National
    Parks, for instance.

    BS. There IS no right to mountain bike.

    .> 9. Don't mountain bikers do some good things, like trail
    construction and trail .> maintenance? . .Among other
    things, mountain bikers also keep land from being .developed
    or paved over.

    BS. "I just wanna bike there!" is not a persuasive argument.

    They often advocate for retaining lands as .undeveloped,
    or use private timber land for trail systems (as opposed
    .to public forests).

    Yes, ineffectively. Selfish arguments aren't persuasive.

    .> 10. But don't mountain bikers provide added safety, by
    being able to quickly .> summon help in the event of an
    emergency? . .In rugged places without cell phone
    reception, a mountain biker might .be the difference
    between life and death.

    That's right: they could KILL you, by running into you or
    pushing you off a cliff.

    While this event might be .rare, the possiblity is real.
    More than that, mountain bikers often .carry tools and
    small amounts of minor medical supplies. For minor, .non-life-
    threatening injuries, a mountain biker's kit could help
    bring .comfort to an injured trail user.

    On the other hand, it won't be much comfort to a hiker run
    into by a mountain biker.

    .Thank you for allowing me to honestly answer your
    questions,

    I am still waiting to see one shred of honesty from a
    mountain biker. ANY mountain biker.

    .Robert F. Jones

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits
    to humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the
    previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
    construction.)

    home.pacbell.netmjvande

  18. "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On 17 May 2004 10:03:47 -0700, [email hidden]
    (Jonesy) wrote:

    .Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    .> Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking .>
    Michael Vandeman, Ph.D. .> March 5, 2004 .> .> 1. Why do
    people mountain bike?

    Same reason I hike or ride a horse........because I/they
    can and want too!

    Quoted message said:

    . .It's fun, good exercise, gets people away from the
    stress of workaday .life, allows people to see and
    experience nature, and helps people .understand the joys
    of using and maintaining simple, elegant machines.

    So does hiking. That doesn't explain why people mountain
    bike (hint: they


    are

    Quoted message said:

    too LAZY to walk).

    .> 2. What is driving the sport of mountain biking? . .See
    1.), above.

    Bacause they can/want too....same as hiking etc.

    Quoted message said:

    . .> 3. What harm does mountain biking do? . .About the
    same harm per mile as hiking, and the same kinds of harm.
    . .> 4. Mountain bikers claim that their sport has no
    greater environmental


    impact

    Quoted message said:

    .> than hiking. Is that true? . .No. Mountain biking
    actually does less aggregate harm, because there .are many
    fewer mountain bikers than hikers. In addition, many
    trails .are hiker-only, while very few are restricted to
    only mountain biking.
    . Hiking is more widespread, and has many more
    participants, and thus .is much more harmful to the
    environment. . .> 5. Where should mountain biking
    allowed? . .On trails open to mountain bikes, and on
    paved roads.

    Share the road/trail

    Quoted message said:

    . .> 6. What should the policy be on trails?

    Be excellent to each other

    Quoted message said:

    . .Bikers should yield to all other users on multi-
    use trails.

    Depends on the situation....ever tried not yeilding to
    the mules on the GC corridor trails?

    Quoted message said:


    But, in fact, they never do! They force everyone else to
    jump off the


    trail, and

    Quoted message said:

    complain if they don't jump far enough or fast enough.

    Blanket statement. Doesnt wash.

    Quoted message said:


    Bikes .should always stay on the trail, and bikers
    should always remain in .control of their bikes and not
    skid or otherwise damage the trail. .Bikers should only
    use trails open to bikes.

    By that logic the same should apply to hikers etc. Do not
    let those boots slip folks.

    Quoted message said:

    . .> 7. Isn't it discriminatory to allow hikers and
    equestrians on trails,


    but not

    Quoted message said:

    .> mountain bikers?

    Yes

    Quoted message said:

    . .If the trail system is on private land, or cannot
    support bicycle .traffic, no. Otherwise, yes.

    Neither. Mountain bikers are ALWAYS allowed on
    trails, liar.

    Wrong. Blanket statment again.

    Quoted message said:


    .> 8. Don't I have a right to mountain bike on all public
    lands? . .Only in the parts approved for use by those on
    bikes. Bikes are not .approved in National Parks, for
    instance.

    BS. There IS no right to mountain bike

    As there is no right to take a [censored] in the woods or hike
    for that matter.

    Quoted message said:


    .> 9. Don't mountain bikers do some good things, like
    trail construction


    and trail

    Quoted message said:

    .> maintenance? . .Among other things, mountain bikers
    also keep land from being .developed or paved over.

    BS. "I just wanna bike there!" is not a persuasive
    argument.

    They often advocate for retaining lands as .undeveloped,
    or use private timber land for trail systems (as opposed
    .to public forests).

    Yes, ineffectively. Selfish arguments aren't persuasive.

    Pot, Kettle, Black

    Quoted message said:


    .> 10. But don't mountain bikers provide added safety, by
    being able to


    quickly

    Quoted message said:

    .> summon help in the event of an emergency? . .In rugged
    places without cell phone reception, a mountain biker
    might .be the difference between life and death.

    That's right: they could KILL you, by running into you or
    pushing you off


    a

    Quoted message said:

    cliff.

    Quoted message said:


    While this event might be .rare, the possiblity is real.
    More than that, mountain bikers often .carry tools and
    small amounts of minor medical supplies. For minor, .non-life-
    threatening injuries, a mountain biker's kit could help
    bring .comfort to an injured trail user.

    On the other hand, it won't be much comfort to a hiker run
    into by a


    mountain

    Quoted message said:

    biker.

    .Thank you for allowing me to honestly answer your
    questions,

    I am still waiting to see one shred of honesty from a
    mountain biker. ANY mountain biker.

    And I am waiting for you to quit using blanket
    statements......most folks that have done the requsite work
    to attain a phd would realize this

    Quoted message said:


    .Robert F. Jones

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-
    limits to humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent
    the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
    construction.)

    home.pacbell.netmjvande

  19. In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:

    Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking Michael
    Vandeman, Ph.D. March 5, 2004

    1. Why do people mountain bike?

    For fun

    Quoted message said:

    2. What is driving the sport of mountain biking?

    All the people having fun.

    Quoted message said:

    3. What harm does mountain biking do?

    Usually harm is done to the bike and rider when they crash.

    Quoted message said:

    4. Mountain bikers claim that their sport has no greater
    environmental impact than hiking. Is that true?

    If done responsibly, yes.

    Quoted message said:

    5. Where should mountain biking allowed?

    Where ever it is safe to do.

    Quoted message said:

    6. What should the policy be on trails?

    Same as for other users.

    Quoted message said:

    7. Isn't it discriminatory to allow hikers and equestrians
    on trails, but not mountain bikers?

    Yes. Horses can do much more damage than a responsibly
    riden MTB.

    Quoted message said:

    8. Don't I have a right to mountain bike on all public
    lands?

    If done responsibly, yes.

    Quoted message said:

    9. Don't mountain bikers do some good things, like trail
    construction and trail maintenance?

    Some do, some don't.

    Quoted message said:

    10. But don't mountain bikers provide added safety, by
    being able to quickly summon help in the event of an
    emergency?

    Maybe. A cell phone would probably do the same, assuming you
    can get a signal. I never hear this reason.

    ---------------
    Alex

  20. Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    On 17 May 2004 10:03:47 -0700, [email hidden]
    (Jonesy) wrote:

    .Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>... .>
    Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking .>
    Michael Vandeman, Ph.D. .> March 5, 2004 .> .> 1. Why do
    people mountain bike? . .It's fun, good exercise, gets
    people away from the stress of workaday .life, allows
    people to see and experience nature, and helps people
    .understand the joys of using and maintaining simple,
    elegant machines.

    So does hiking. That doesn't explain why people mountain
    bike (hint: they are too LAZY to walk).

    Your opinion on the work ethic of mountain bike riders is
    irrelevant. In some cases, it is actually harder to ride a
    bike than walk on particular sections of trail. As far as
    outdoor activities go, one size doesn't fit all. Hiking <>
    mountain biking.

    Quoted message said:

    .> 6. What should the policy be on trails? . .Bikers
    should yield to all other users on multi-use trails.

    But, in fact, they never do!

    As you are often quick to point out to others, this is a
    LIE. I *always* yield to other trail users. Gladly.

    Quoted message said:

    They force everyone else to jump off the trail, and
    complain if they don't jump far enough or fast enough.

    Another lie. Do not bring up "your experinece" in this -
    biased anecdotal evidence is not indicative of the entire
    population, or every encounter.

    Quoted message said:

    .If the trail system is on private land, or cannot support
    bicycle .traffic, no. Otherwise, yes.

    Neither. Mountain bikers are ALWAYS allowed on
    trails, liar.

    What does that have to do with bicycle traffic?

    Quoted message said:

    .> 8. Don't I have a right to mountain bike on all public
    lands? . .Only in the parts approved for use by those on
    bikes. Bikes are not .approved in National Parks, for
    instance.

    BS. There IS no right to mountain bike.

    Pedantically speaking, you are correct. But as long as
    mountain biking is allowed, the priviledge is extended to
    mountain bikers to bike on the trails. This is also the case
    with hikers in some areas of the NPS.

    Quoted message said:

    .> 9. Don't mountain bikers do some good things, like
    trail construction and trail .> maintenance? . .Among
    other things, mountain bikers also keep land from being
    .developed or paved over.

    BS. "I just wanna bike there!" is not a persuasive
    argument.

    A lie. The rationale or persuasivness of the argument to you
    has no bearing on whether or not the mountain biker
    community is successful in keeping lands from being
    developed.

    Quoted message said:

    They often advocate for retaining lands as .undeveloped,
    or use private timber land for trail systems (as opposed
    .to public forests).

    Yes, ineffectively. Selfish arguments aren't persuasive.

    Moscow Mt., ID is privately owned, and the trail system is
    maintained exclusively by MTBers for MTBer and hikers. This
    land may eventually be logged, but it is unlikely that it
    will be developed. This is due to cooperation between the
    Bennett Lumber Co. and MAMBA.

    Funny, MTBer arguments are the first ones listened to in
    those circles...

    Quoted message said:

    .In rugged places without cell phone reception, a mountain
    biker might .be the difference between life and death.

    That's right: they could KILL you, by running into you or
    pushing you off a cliff.

    Since this has never happened, the suggestion is a non
    sequitur at best. A red herring otherwise.

    Quoted message said:

    While this event might be .rare, the possiblity is real.
    More than that, mountain bikers often .carry tools and
    small amounts of minor medical supplies. For minor, .non-life-
    threatening injuries, a mountain biker's kit could help
    bring .comfort to an injured trail user.

    On the other hand, it won't be much comfort to a hiker run
    into by a mountain biker.

    Strawman. Please use logic when attempting to refute
    an argument.

    Quoted message said:

    .Thank you for allowing me to honestly answer your
    questions,

    I am still waiting to see one shred of honesty from a
    mountain biker. ANY mountain biker.

    "For minor, non-life-threatening injuries, a mountain
    biker's kit could help bring comfort to an injured
    trail user."

    This statement is 100% true, and completely honest, and
    from a MTBer.
    --
    Bob Jones

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