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Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking

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  1. Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
    Michael Vandeman, Ph.D.
    Updated March 8, 2007

    1. Why do people mountain bike?
    a. They say that using a bike allows them to get much farther, in
    the same amount of time, than they can by walking. They also maintain
    constant pressure on land managers, to open more and more trails to
    bikes. Of course, all of these trails are already open to them, if
    they choose to walk. They also frequently claim that closing trails to
    bikes "excludes" them from the parks. This could only be true if they
    were unable to walk. Of course, they are able to walk. There's nothing
    inherently wrong with bicycling instead of walking; we all like to
    save energy, when it's appropriate. Use of a bicycle to replace
    automobile use is obviously beneficial. However, by the same token,
    replacing hiking with mountain biking is obviously not beneficial.
    b. They are interested in the quantity of nature they can see,
    rather than the quality of their experience. While riding a bike,
    especially over terrain as rough as a trail, one has to be constantly
    paying attention to not crashing. That makes it almost impossible to
    notice much else. By contrast, a hiker feels the ground, hears all the
    sounds and smells all the odors of nature and can stop instantly, if
    he/she finds something interesting. The brain thrives on stimulation.
    A biker has to travel several times as far as a hiker, to get the same
    stimulation as a hiker. (And, by the same token, motorcyclists have to
    travel several times as far as a bicyclist, and an auto user several
    times as far as a motorcyclist, since they are enclosed in a metal
    box.)
    c. They are interested in thrills. Riding a bike on a trail,
    especially a trail containing many obstacles, or a trail one is not
    familiar with, is very challenging. (But if mountain biking is the
    high point of your week, as it seems to be for many mountain bikers,
    you must be leading a pretty dull life, off of the bike!)
    d. They are interested in building mountain biking skills and
    competing with other mountain bikers. The thrill of racing drives
    people to spend more money on their bike, and ride it harder and more
    often. Racing, up to and including the Olympics, drives a lot of
    mountain biking. Of course, it is also extremely harmful to the parks
    and natural areas that are used for practice! It is hard to think of
    any other (legal) use of public lands, other than hunting, that is as
    harmful as mountain biking.

    2. What is driving the sport of mountain biking? Besides the
    attraction for participants, manufacturers and retailers of mountain
    bikes and mountain biking accessories, as well as "adventure" travel
    guides, make a lot of money from promoting mountain biking. Even some
    auto manufacturers (e.g. Subaru) promote and sponsor mountain biking,
    and try to use its popularity to sell more cars. The tourism industry
    also promotes mountain biking, among other attractions.

    3. What harm does mountain biking do?
    a. Most obvious is the acceleration of erosion. Knobby tires rip
    into the soil, loosening it and allowing rain to wash it away. They
    also create V-shaped grooves that make walking difficult or even
    dangerous. The mechanical advantage given by the gears and ball
    bearings allow a mountain biker to travel several times as fast as a
    hiker. Given their increased weight (rider plus bike), this results in
    vastly increased momentum, and hence much greater horizontal
    (shearing) forces on the soil. (Witness the skid marks from stops,
    starts, and turns.) According to Newton, every action has an equal and
    opposite reaction. Mountain bikes were built much stronger than other
    bikes, so that they could withstand the greater forces they were
    subject to on rough trails. These same forces, therefore, are being
    applied to the trails! To give a definite number, the winner of a
    20-mile race here in Briones Regional Park averaged 13 MPH (the speed
    limit is 15 MPH -- where were the park rangers?).
    b. A hiker must be very careful not to accidentally step on small
    animals and plants on the trail. For a mountain biker, it is almost
    impossible to avoid killing countless animals and plants on and under
    the trail. They have to pay attention to controlling the bike, and
    can't afford to look carefully at what is on the trail, especially
    when travelling fast. And even if they happen to see, for example, a
    snake, it is hard for them to stop in time to avoid killing it. A
    hiker, when crossing a creek, will try to avoid getting wet, by
    crossing on stepping stones or logs. Mountain bikers, on the other
    hand, simply ride right through the creek bed, crushing any animals or
    plants that happen to be there. Mountain biking magazines are full of
    photos of mountain bikers throwing up spray, as they barrel through
    creeks. Not only do bikes destroy animals and plants as they ride
    across streams, they ride through streams stirring up sediment. The
    sediment in the water interferes with the oxygen uptake by aquatic
    life, for example, killing fish- and frog eggs. Young fish, insects,
    amphibians, and aquatic microorganisms are extremely sensitive to
    sediment in water.
    c. Bikes also allow people to travel several times as far as a
    hiker. This translates into several times the impacts, both on the
    trail and on the wildlife (to say nothing of the other trail users).
    Existing parklands are already inadequate to protect the wildlife that
    live there. When they are crisscrossed by mountain bikers and legal or
    illegal trails, their habitat becomes even more inadequate. Mountain
    bikers frequently advertise rides of 20-50 miles or more. Have you
    ever tried to walk that far in a day? In other words, allowing bikes
    in a park greatly increases human presence in that park and drives
    wildlife further from the resources that they need to survive,
    including water, food, and mates.
    d. Due to their width and speed, bikes can't safely pass each
    other on narrow trails. Therefore, policies that permit mountain
    biking also result in more habitat destruction, as trails are widened
    by bikers (or by hikers and equestrians jumping out of their way).
    e. Knobby mountain bike tires are ideal for carrying mud, and
    consequently exotic plants, fungi, and other organisms from place to
    place, resulting in the spread of exotic invasive species, such as
    weeds and Sudden Oak Death.
    f. Mountain biking is driving the very young and old off of the
    trails and hence out of the parks. Even able-bodied hikers and
    equestrians fear for their safety, and don't enjoy sharing the trails
    with bikes. (The mountain bikers claim that they are simply being
    selfish and "unwilling to share", but actually they have no problem
    sharing trails with mountain bikers; it is only their bikes that are a
    problem!)
    g. Mountain bikes, which are obviously built to go anywhere,
    teach children and anyone else who sees them that the rough treatment
    of nature is acceptable. This undoubtedly has a negative effect on
    people's treatment of nature.
    h. In order to mitigate bike-caused erosion, park managers have
    been resorting to extreme measures -- even in some cases putting a
    plastic matrix or other exotic material under the trail (e.g. in
    Pleasanton Ridge Regional Preserve, near Pleasanton, California)! It's
    hard to imagine that this will have a beneficial effect on the park
    and its wildlife….
    i. Allowing mountain bikes in a park greatly increases the damage
    to the trails, damage from "bootleg" (illegally created) trails, and
    the problems of conflicts between trail users, and hence the cost of
    maintaining the park. Considering how tight park budgets are, we can't
    afford the extra costs of policing, and repairing the damage from,
    mountain biking.
    j. For the science on mountain biking and its impacts on wildlife
    and people, see http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7.htm.

    4. Mountain bikers claim that their sport has no greater environmental
    impact than hiking. Is that true?
    a.If you read the "studies" that make that claim, you find that they
    don't really compare the impacts of hiking and mountain biking, but
    only the impacts per foot. If, for a moment, we assume that the
    studies are correct in their having equivalent impacts per foot, it
    would still follow that mountain biking has far greater impact per
    person, since mountain bikers typically travel so much farther than
    hikers. Besides overlooking distances travelled, those "studies"
    almost all ignore impacts on wildlife. And they don't study mountain
    biking under normal conditions -- only at a very slow speed. Actually,
    the comparison with hiking is irrelevant. It would only be relevant if
    we planned to allow only one of the two, and were considering which of
    the two is more harmful. In fact, no one is considering banning
    hiking. We are only considering adding mountain biking. Therefore, the
    only relevant question is, "Is mountain biking harmful"? (Of course,
    it is!) There is only one truly scientific study that I know of that
    compares the impacts of hiking and mountain biking. It found that
    mountain biking has a greater impact on elk than hiking (Wisdom, M.
    J., H. K. Preisler, N. J. Cimon, B. K. Johnson. 2004. Effects of
    Off-Road Recreation on Mule Deer and Elk. Transactions of the North
    American Wildlife and Natural Resource Conference 69, 2004,
    pp.531-550.) See http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7.
    b. On its web site, IMBA mentions recent research on mountain
    biking by Dave White et al and Jeff Marion, both of whom claim that
    mountain biking and hiking have "similar" impacts. Is that true?
    First, "similar" is not a scientific term and really has no clear
    meaning. That term is being used only to obfuscate. Second, these are
    survey studies, not experimental studies. By its very nature, a survey
    study cannot be used to compare the impacts from two activities,
    because it doesn't control all the variables. For example, we don't
    know if the differences in erosion between two trails are due to the
    mountain biking vs. hiking use, or due to differences in the weather,
    terrain, steepness, soil type, management practices, amount of use,
    hikers on the "mountain biking trail", mountain bikers on the "hiking
    trail", etc. White et al only measured their trails once, and didn't
    even collect any data on hiking impacts! See
    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/white and
    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/marion.
    c. Why would a researcher risk his/her reputation by doing
    such shoddy work? For money! And to ensure the continuance of their
    sport. If land managers think that mountain biking is more harmful
    than hiking, they will be more likely to close trails to bikes. Bike
    parts manufacturer Shimano paid Professor White to do his study.
    Research funds are difficult to obtain. A researcher who can be relied
    upon to produce research favorable to mountain biking will be able to
    obtain funding from the mountain biking industry. A researcher who
    tells the truth about mountain biking won't be able to obtain research
    funds and will risk stunting his/her career.
    5. Where should mountain biking allowed? A couple of role models for
    wildlife protection are Yosemite National Park and East Bay Municipal
    Utility District (in Alameda and Contra Costa counties, California).
    They both restrict bicycles to paved roads, where they can't do much
    harm. Somehow bicyclists have managed to enjoy their sport for over a
    hundred years, without riding off-road.

    6. What should the policy be on trails? Closed to bikes, unless marked
    open. Signs that say "No Bikes" are quickly and repeatedly ripped out
    of the ground by mountain bikers.

    7. Isn't it discriminatory to allow hikers and equestrians on trails,
    but not mountain bikers? Mountain bikers love to say this, apparently
    because they think it will gain them some sympathy. The truth is that
    mountain bikers have exactly the same access to trails that everyone
    else has! It is only their bikes that are banned. If mountain bikers
    were really being discriminated against, they could easily go to court
    to gain access. However … they already have access to every trail in
    the world!

    8. Don't I have a right to mountain bike on all public lands? I am a
    taxpayer! The public has the right, through its elected
    representatives, to restrict how land is used. A federal court has
    already ruled that there is no right to mountain bike. It is a
    privilege, and any land manager who gives a good reason (such as
    safety or protecting the environment) can keep bikes off of trails
    (see http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/mtb10.htm).

    9. Don't mountain bikers do some good things, like trail construction
    and trail maintenance? Trail construction destroys wildlife habitat
    both directly (by killing plants and animals) and indirectly (by
    reducing the size of the intervening "islands" of habitat). Moreover,
    mountain bikers favor trails that are "twisty" (sinuous), bumpy, and
    full of obstacles that provide thrills for mountain bikers. Such
    designs increase habitat destruction (by lengthening the trail) and
    make the trails less useful for hikers and equestrians. Trail
    maintenance sounds good, until you realize that it would hardly be
    necessary, if bikes weren't allowed there. The mountain bikers are the
    main reason why trail maintenance is necessary! Trails used only by
    hikers require hardly any maintenance. Therefore, admitting bicycles
    to a park greatly increases its cost of maintenance. Nothing is really
    "free", including trail construction and maintenance. (How does the
    saying go? "Beware of Trojans bearing gifts"?)

    10. But don't mountain bikers provide added safety, by being able to
    quickly summon help in the event of an emergency? I would rather trust
    in a cell phone, than a speeding mountain biker. Besides, natural
    areas are already one of the safest places you can be. In over 50
    years of hiking and backpacking, I have never witnessed any situation
    requiring emergency aid. Most people go to natural areas partly for
    solitude. If we wanted to be around large, fast-moving pieces of
    machinery, we would stay in the city!

    11. Can't mountain biking help get our overweight kids off the couch?
    Hiking can already do that, without causing extra harm to wildlife and
    people. Mountain biking downhill provides zero exercise benefit.
    Mountain biking on level ground provides minimal exercise benefit,
    much less than walking. Since it's impossible to pay any attention to
    your surroundings while mountain biking (or you will crash), there's
    no reason to promote mountain biking. It benefits only those who stand
    to make money off of it, such as bike manufacturers, retailers, and
    tour companies.

    12. Doesn't mountain biking get people out of their cars? So do
    walking, road cycling, and transit use, without harm to the natural
    environment. Since very few mountain biking opportunities are within
    easy bicycling distance, the vast majority of mountain bike trips
    require transporting the bike in a truck, SUV, or car. If mountain
    bikers cared about the environment, they would bicycle to the park,
    lock their bike at the trailhead, and hike. Or simply bicycle on paved
    roads, as bicyclists have for the past century.

    13. Doesn't the threat from mountain biking pale, in comparison to
    other sources of environmental damage, such as logging? Maybe, and
    maybe not. Mountain biking teaches people that the rough treatment of
    nature is acceptable, so it may lead to many other abuses. In parks,
    where most mountain biking is done, it is probably the most harmful
    activity allowed. But even if mountain biking is less damaging than
    another activity, such as logging, it is still additional damage. If
    an area is already messed up (e.g. by logging), how does that make it
    okay to do additional damage? It doesn't!

    14. What's wrong with night riding? Humans have been destroying
    wildlife habitat for centuries, so that very little remains. Our
    presence in parks prevents wildlife from using a large part of their
    habitat, at least during the daytime. Now that night riding is
    becoming popular, wildlife and being denied that habitat even at
    night, or incur an increased risk getting run over, if they attempt to
    use it. There is very little law enforcement even during the day in
    these days of tight budgets. There is no patrolling of parks at night!
    This gives mountain bikers free rein to do whatever they want,
    including riding trails that are closed to bikes or even building
    their own illegal trails. No wonder night riding is so popular! And,
    of course, night riding makes an activity that is already very
    dangerous, much more dangerous.

    Note: I was the Chair of the Wildlife Committee of the Sierra Club's
    San Francisco Bay Area Chapter for the past decade. During the same
    period, I studied conservation biology and the environmental impacts
    of mountain biking, which are summarized in my paper "The Impacts of
    Mountain Biking on Wildlife and People -- A Review of the Literature"
    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7.htm.
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  2. Mike Vandeman said:

    Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
    Michael Vandeman, Ph.D.
    Updated March 8, 2007

    1. Why do people mountain bike?
    a. They say that using a bike allows them to get much farther, in
    the same amount of time, than they can by walking. They also maintain
    constant pressure on land managers, to open more and more trails to
    bikes. Of course, all of these trails are already open to them, if
    they choose to walk. They also frequently claim that closing trails to
    bikes "excludes" them from the parks. This could only be true if they
    were unable to walk. Of course, they are able to walk. There's nothing
    inherently wrong with bicycling instead of walking; we all like to
    save energy, when it's appropriate. Use of a bicycle to replace
    automobile use is obviously beneficial. However, by the same token,
    replacing hiking with mountain biking is obviously not beneficial.
    b. They are interested in the quantity of nature they can see,
    rather than the quality of their experience. While riding a bike,
    especially over terrain as rough as a trail, one has to be constantly
    paying attention to not crashing. That makes it almost impossible to
    notice much else. By contrast, a hiker feels the ground, hears all the
    sounds and smells all the odors of nature and can stop instantly, if
    he/she finds something interesting. The brain thrives on stimulation.
    A biker has to travel several times as far as a hiker, to get the same
    stimulation as a hiker. (And, by the same token, motorcyclists have to
    travel several times as far as a bicyclist, and an auto user several
    times as far as a motorcyclist, since they are enclosed in a metal
    box.)
    c. They are interested in thrills. Riding a bike on a trail,
    especially a trail containing many obstacles, or a trail one is not
    familiar with, is very challenging. (But if mountain biking is the
    high point of your week, as it seems to be for many mountain bikers,
    you must be leading a pretty dull life, off of the bike!)
    d. They are interested in building mountain biking skills and
    competing with other mountain bikers. The thrill of racing drives
    people to spend more money on their bike, and ride it harder and more
    often. Racing, up to and including the Olympics, drives a lot of
    mountain biking. Of course, it is also extremely harmful to the parks
    and natural areas that are used for practice! It is hard to think of
    any other (legal) use of public lands, other than hunting, that is as
    harmful as mountain biking.

    2. What is driving the sport of mountain biking? Besides the
    attraction for participants, manufacturers and retailers of mountain
    bikes and mountain biking accessories, as well as "adventure" travel
    guides, make a lot of money from promoting mountain biking. Even some
    auto manufacturers (e.g. Subaru) promote and sponsor mountain biking,
    and try to use its popularity to sell more cars. The tourism industry
    also promotes mountain biking, among other attractions.

    3. What harm does mountain biking do?
    a. Most obvious is the acceleration of erosion. Knobby tires rip
    into the soil, loosening it and allowing rain to wash it away. They
    also create V-shaped grooves that make walking difficult or even
    dangerous. The mechanical advantage given by the gears and ball
    bearings allow a mountain biker to travel several times as fast as a
    hiker. Given their increased weight (rider plus bike), this results in
    vastly increased momentum, and hence much greater horizontal
    (shearing) forces on the soil. (Witness the skid marks from stops,
    starts, and turns.) According to Newton, every action has an equal and
    opposite reaction. Mountain bikes were built much stronger than other
    bikes, so that they could withstand the greater forces they were
    subject to on rough trails. These same forces, therefore, are being
    applied to the trails! To give a definite number, the winner of a
    20-mile race here in Briones Regional Park averaged 13 MPH (the speed
    limit is 15 MPH -- where were the park rangers?).
    b. A hiker must be very careful not to accidentally step on small
    animals and plants on the trail. For a mountain biker, it is almost
    impossible to avoid killing countless animals and plants on and under
    the trail. They have to pay attention to controlling the bike, and
    can't afford to look carefully at what is on the trail, especially
    when travelling fast. And even if they happen to see, for example, a
    snake, it is hard for them to stop in time to avoid killing it. A
    hiker, when crossing a creek, will try to avoid getting wet, by
    crossing on stepping stones or logs. Mountain bikers, on the other
    hand, simply ride right through the creek bed, crushing any animals or
    plants that happen to be there. Mountain biking magazines are full of
    photos of mountain bikers throwing up spray, as they barrel through
    creeks. Not only do bikes destroy animals and plants as they ride
    across streams, they ride through streams stirring up sediment. The
    sediment in the water interferes with the oxygen uptake by aquatic
    life, for example, killing fish- and frog eggs. Young fish, insects,
    amphibians, and aquatic microorganisms are extremely sensitive to
    sediment in water.
    c. Bikes also allow people to travel several times as far as a
    hiker. This translates into several times the impacts, both on the
    trail and on the wildlife (to say nothing of the other trail users).
    Existing parklands are already inadequate to protect the wildlife that
    live there. When they are crisscrossed by mountain bikers and legal or
    illegal trails, their habitat becomes even more inadequate. Mountain
    bikers frequently advertise rides of 20-50 miles or more. Have you
    ever tried to walk that far in a day? In other words, allowing bikes
    in a park greatly increases human presence in that park and drives
    wildlife further from the resources that they need to survive,
    including water, food, and mates.
    d. Due to their width and speed, bikes can't safely pass each
    other on narrow trails. Therefore, policies that permit mountain
    biking also result in more habitat destruction, as trails are widened
    by bikers (or by hikers and equestrians jumping out of their way).
    e. Knobby mountain bike tires are ideal for carrying mud, and
    consequently exotic plants, fungi, and other organisms from place to
    place, resulting in the spread of exotic invasive species, such as
    weeds and Sudden Oak Death.
    f. Mountain biking is driving the very young and old off of the
    trails and hence out of the parks. Even able-bodied hikers and
    equestrians fear for their safety, and don't enjoy sharing the trails
    with bikes. (The mountain bikers claim that they are simply being
    selfish and "unwilling to share", but actually they have no problem
    sharing trails with mountain bikers; it is only their bikes that are a
    problem!)
    g. Mountain bikes, which are obviously built to go anywhere,
    teach children and anyone else who sees them that the rough treatment
    of nature is acceptable. This undoubtedly has a negative effect on
    people's treatment of nature.
    h. In order to mitigate bike-caused erosion, park managers have
    been resorting to extreme measures -- even in some cases putting a
    plastic matrix or other exotic material under the trail (e.g. in
    Pleasanton Ridge Regional Preserve, near Pleasanton, California)! It's
    hard to imagine that this will have a beneficial effect on the park
    and its wildlife....
    i. Allowing mountain bikes in a park greatly increases the damage
    to the trails, damage from "bootleg" (illegally created) trails, and
    the problems of conflicts between trail users, and hence the cost of
    maintaining the park. Considering how tight park budgets are, we can't
    afford the extra costs of policing, and repairing the damage from,
    mountain biking.
    j. For the science on mountain biking and its impacts on wildlife
    and people, seehttp://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7.htm.

    4. Mountain bikers claim that their sport has no greater environmental
    impact than hiking. Is that true?
    a.If you read the "studies" that make that claim, you find that they
    don't really compare the impacts of hiking and mountain biking, but
    only the impacts per foot. If, for a moment, we assume that the
    studies are correct in their having equivalent impacts per foot, it
    would still follow that mountain biking has far greater impact per
    person, since mountain bikers typically travel so much farther than
    hikers. Besides overlooking distances travelled, those "studies"
    almost all ignore impacts on wildlife. And they don't study mountain
    biking under normal conditions -- only at a very slow speed. Actually,
    the comparison with hiking is irrelevant. It would only be relevant if
    we planned to allow only one of the two, and were considering which of
    the two is more harmful. In fact, no one is considering banning
    hiking. We are only considering adding mountain biking. Therefore, the
    only relevant question is, "Is mountain biking harmful"? (Of course,
    it is!) There is only one truly scientific study that I know of that
    compares the impacts of hiking and mountain biking. It found that
    mountain biking has a greater impact on elk than hiking (Wisdom, M.
    J., H. K. Preisler, N. J. Cimon, B. K. Johnson. 2004. Effects of
    Off-Road Recreation on Mule Deer and Elk. Transactions of the North
    American Wildlife and Natural Resource Conference 69, 2004,
    pp.531-550.) Seehttp://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7.
    b. On its web site, IMBA mentions recent research on mountain
    biking by Dave White et al and Jeff Marion, both of whom claim that
    mountain biking and hiking have "similar" impacts. Is that true?
    First, "similar" is not a scientific term and really has no clear
    meaning. That term is being used only to obfuscate. Second, these are
    survey studies, not experimental studies. By its very nature, a survey
    study cannot be used to compare the impacts from two activities,
    because it doesn't control all the variables. For example, we don't
    know if the differences in erosion between two trails are due to the
    mountain biking vs. hiking use, or due to differences in the weather,
    terrain, steepness, soil type, management practices, amount of use,
    hikers on the "mountain biking trail", mountain bikers on the "hiking
    trail", etc. White et al only measured their trails once, and didn't
    even collect any data on hiking impacts! Seehttp://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/whiteandhttp://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/marion.
    c. Why would a researcher risk his/her reputation by doing
    such shoddy work? For money! And to ensure the continuance of their
    sport. If land managers think that mountain biking is more harmful
    than hiking, they will be more likely to close trails to bikes. Bike
    parts manufacturer Shimano paid Professor White to do his study.
    Research funds are difficult to obtain. A researcher who can be relied
    upon to produce research favorable to mountain biking will be able to
    obtain funding from the mountain biking industry. A researcher who
    tells the truth about mountain biking won't be able to obtain research
    funds and will risk stunting his/her career.
    5. Where should mountain biking allowed? A couple of role models for
    wildlife protection are Yosemite National Park and East Bay Municipal
    Utility District (in Alameda and Contra Costa counties, California).
    They both restrict bicycles to paved roads, where they can't do much
    harm. Somehow bicyclists have managed to enjoy their sport for over a
    hundred years, without riding off-road.

    6. What should the policy be on trails? Closed to bikes, unless marked
    open. Signs that say "No Bikes" are quickly and repeatedly ripped out
    of the ground by mountain bikers.

    7. Isn't it discriminatory to allow hikers and equestrians on trails,
    but not mountain bikers? Mountain bikers love to say this, apparently
    because they think it will gain them some sympathy. The truth is that
    mountain bikers have exactly the same access to trails that everyone
    else has! It is only their bikes that are banned. If mountain bikers
    were really being discriminated against, they could easily go to court
    to gain access. However ... they already have access to every trail in
    the world!

    8. Don't I have a right to mountain bike on all public lands? I am a
    taxpayer! The public has the right, through its elected
    representatives, to restrict how land is used. A federal court has
    already ruled that there is no right to mountain bike. It is a
    privilege, and any land manager who gives a good reason (such as
    safety or protecting the environment) can keep bikes off of trails
    (seehttp://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/mtb10.htm).

    9. Don't mountain bikers do some good things, like trail construction
    and trail maintenance? Trail construction destroys wildlife habitat
    both directly (by killing plants and animals) and indirectly (by
    reducing the size of the intervening "islands" of habitat). Moreover,
    mountain bikers favor trails that are "twisty" (sinuous), bumpy, and
    full of obstacles that provide thrills for mountain bikers. Such
    designs increase habitat destruction (by lengthening the trail) and
    make the trails less useful for hikers and equestrians. Trail
    maintenance sounds good, until you realize that it would hardly be
    necessary, if bikes weren't allowed there. The mountain bikers are the
    main reason why trail maintenance is necessary! Trails used only by
    hikers require hardly any maintenance. Therefore, admitting bicycles
    to a park greatly increases its cost of maintenance. Nothing is really
    "free", including trail construction and maintenance. (How does the
    saying go? "Beware of Trojans bearing gifts"?)

    10. But don't mountain bikers provide added safety, by being able to
    quickly summon help in the event of an emergency? I would rather trust
    in a cell phone, than a speeding mountain biker. Besides, natural
    areas are already one of the safest places you can be. In over 50
    years of hiking and backpacking, I have never witnessed any situation
    requiring emergency aid. Most people go to natural areas partly for
    solitude. If we wanted to be around large, fast-moving pieces of
    machinery, we would stay in the city!

    11. Can't mountain biking help get our overweight kids off the couch?
    Hiking can already do that, without causing extra harm to wildlife and
    people. Mountain biking downhill provides zero exercise benefit.
    Mountain biking on level ground provides minimal exercise benefit,
    much less than walking. Since it's impossible to pay any attention to
    your surroundings while mountain biking (or you will crash), there's
    no reason to promote mountain biking. It benefits only those who stand
    to make money off of it, such as bike manufacturers, retailers, and
    tour companies.

    12. Doesn't mountain biking get people out of their cars? So do
    walking, road cycling, and transit use, without harm to the natural
    environment. Since very few mountain biking opportunities are within
    easy bicycling distance, the vast majority of mountain bike trips
    require transporting the bike in a truck, SUV, or car. If mountain
    bikers cared about the environment, they would bicycle to the park,
    lock their bike at the trailhead, and hike. Or simply bicycle on paved
    roads, as bicyclists have for the past century.

    13. Doesn't the threat from mountain biking pale, in comparison to
    other sources of environmental damage, such as logging? Maybe, and
    maybe not. Mountain biking teaches people that the rough treatment of
    nature is acceptable, so it may lead to many other abuses. In parks,
    where most mountain biking is done, it is probably the most harmful
    activity allowed. But even if mountain biking is less damaging than
    another activity, such as logging, it is still additional damage. If
    an area is already messed up (e.g. by logging), how does that make it
    okay to do additional damage? It doesn't!

    14. What's wrong with night riding? Humans have been destroying
    wildlife habitat for centuries, so that very little remains. Our
    presence in parks prevents wildlife from using a large part of their
    habitat, at least during the daytime. Now that night riding is
    becoming popular, wildlife and being denied that habitat even at
    night, or incur an increased risk getting run over, if they attempt to
    use it. There is very little law enforcement even during the day in
    these days of tight budgets. There is no patrolling of parks at night!
    This gives mountain bikers free rein to do whatever they want,
    including riding trails that are closed to bikes or even building
    their own illegal trails. No wonder night riding is so popular! And,
    of course, night riding makes an activity that is already very
    dangerous, much more dangerous.

    Note: I was the Chair of the Wildlife Committee of the Sierra Club's
    San Francisco Bay Area Chapter for the past decade. During the same
    period, I studied conservation biology and the environmental impacts
    of mountain biking, which are summarized in my paper "The Impacts of
    Mountain Biking on Wildlife and People -- A Review of the Literature"http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7.htm.
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

    too long.

  3. "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Frequently Asked Questions about Mike Vandeman
    Michael Vandeman, Ph.D.
    Updated March 8, 2007

    Why am I such a pitiful troll? It is because I am a cyclophobic,
    sociophobic, waste of skin. It sucks to be me>

  4. bruno said:
    Mike Vandeman said:

    Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
    Michael Vandeman, Ph.D.
    Updated March 8, 2007

    1. Why do people mountain bike?
    a. They say that using a bike allows them to get much farther, in
    the same amount of time, than they can by walking. They also maintain
    constant pressure on land managers, to open more and more trails to
    bikes. Of course, all of these trails are already open to them, if
    they choose to walk. They also frequently claim that closing trails to
    bikes "excludes" them from the parks. This could only be true if they
    were unable to walk. Of course, they are able to walk. There's nothing
    inherently wrong with bicycling instead of walking; we all like to
    save energy, when it's appropriate. Use of a bicycle to replace
    automobile use is obviously beneficial. However, by the same token,
    replacing hiking with mountain biking is obviously not beneficial.
    b. They are interested in the quantity of nature they can see,
    rather than the quality of their experience. While riding a bike,
    especially over terrain as rough as a trail, one has to be constantly
    paying attention to not crashing. That makes it almost impossible to
    notice much else. By contrast, a hiker feels the ground, hears all the
    sounds and smells all the odors of nature and can stop instantly, if
    he/she finds something interesting. The brain thrives on stimulation.
    A biker has to travel several times as far as a hiker, to get the same
    stimulation as a hiker. (And, by the same token, motorcyclists have to
    travel several times as far as a bicyclist, and an auto user several
    times as far as a motorcyclist, since they are enclosed in a metal
    box.)
    c. They are interested in thrills. Riding a bike on a trail,
    especially a trail containing many obstacles, or a trail one is not
    familiar with, is very challenging. (But if mountain biking is the
    high point of your week, as it seems to be for many mountain bikers,
    you must be leading a pretty dull life, off of the bike!)
    d. They are interested in building mountain biking skills and
    competing with other mountain bikers. The thrill of racing drives
    people to spend more money on their bike, and ride it harder and more
    often. Racing, up to and including the Olympics, drives a lot of
    mountain biking. Of course, it is also extremely harmful to the parks
    and natural areas that are used for practice! It is hard to think of
    any other (legal) use of public lands, other than hunting, that is as
    harmful as mountain biking.

    2. What is driving the sport of mountain biking? Besides the
    attraction for participants, manufacturers and retailers of mountain
    bikes and mountain biking accessories, as well as "adventure" travel
    guides, make a lot of money from promoting mountain biking. Even some
    auto manufacturers (e.g. Subaru) promote and sponsor mountain biking,
    and try to use its popularity to sell more cars. The tourism industry
    also promotes mountain biking, among other attractions.

    3. What harm does mountain biking do?
    a. Most obvious is the acceleration of erosion. Knobby tires rip
    into the soil, loosening it and allowing rain to wash it away. They
    also create V-shaped grooves that make walking difficult or even
    dangerous. The mechanical advantage given by the gears and ball
    bearings allow a mountain biker to travel several times as fast as a
    hiker. Given their increased weight (rider plus bike), this results in
    vastly increased momentum, and hence much greater horizontal
    (shearing) forces on the soil. (Witness the skid marks from stops,
    starts, and turns.) According to Newton, every action has an equal and
    opposite reaction. Mountain bikes were built much stronger than other
    bikes, so that they could withstand the greater forces they were
    subject to on rough trails. These same forces, therefore, are being
    applied to the trails! To give a definite number, the winner of a
    20-mile race here in Briones Regional Park averaged 13 MPH (the speed
    limit is 15 MPH -- where were the park rangers?).
    b. A hiker must be very careful not to accidentally step on small
    animals and plants on the trail. For a mountain biker, it is almost
    impossible to avoid killing countless animals and plants on and under
    the trail. They have to pay attention to controlling the bike, and
    can't afford to look carefully at what is on the trail, especially
    when travelling fast. And even if they happen to see, for example, a
    snake, it is hard for them to stop in time to avoid killing it. A
    hiker, when crossing a creek, will try to avoid getting wet, by
    crossing on stepping stones or logs. Mountain bikers, on the other
    hand, simply ride right through the creek bed, crushing any animals or
    plants that happen to be there. Mountain biking magazines are full of
    photos of mountain bikers throwing up spray, as they barrel through
    creeks. Not only do bikes destroy animals and plants as they ride
    across streams, they ride through streams stirring up sediment. The
    sediment in the water interferes with the oxygen uptake by aquatic
    life, for example, killing fish- and frog eggs. Young fish, insects,
    amphibians, and aquatic microorganisms are extremely sensitive to
    sediment in water.
    c. Bikes also allow people to travel several times as far as a
    hiker. This translates into several times the impacts, both on the
    trail and on the wildlife (to say nothing of the other trail users).
    Existing parklands are already inadequate to protect the wildlife that
    live there. When they are crisscrossed by mountain bikers and legal or
    illegal trails, their habitat becomes even more inadequate. Mountain
    bikers frequently advertise rides of 20-50 miles or more. Have you
    ever tried to walk that far in a day? In other words, allowing bikes
    in a park greatly increases human presence in that park and drives
    wildlife further from the resources that they need to survive,
    including water, food, and mates.
    d. Due to their width and speed, bikes can't safely pass each
    other on narrow trails. Therefore, policies that permit mountain
    biking also result in more habitat destruction, as trails are widened
    by bikers (or by hikers and equestrians jumping out of their way).
    e. Knobby mountain bike tires are ideal for carrying mud, and
    consequently exotic plants, fungi, and other organisms from place to
    place, resulting in the spread of exotic invasive species, such as
    weeds and Sudden Oak Death.
    f. Mountain biking is driving the very young and old off of the
    trails and hence out of the parks. Even able-bodied hikers and
    equestrians fear for their safety, and don't enjoy sharing the trails
    with bikes. (The mountain bikers claim that they are simply being
    selfish and "unwilling to share", but actually they have no problem
    sharing trails with mountain bikers; it is only their bikes that are a
    problem!)
    g. Mountain bikes, which are obviously built to go anywhere,
    teach children and anyone else who sees them that the rough treatment
    of nature is acceptable. This undoubtedly has a negative effect on
    people's treatment of nature.
    h. In order to mitigate bike-caused erosion, park managers have
    been resorting to extreme measures -- even in some cases putting a
    plastic matrix or other exotic material under the trail (e.g. in
    Pleasanton Ridge Regional Preserve, near Pleasanton, California)! It's
    hard to imagine that this will have a beneficial effect on the park
    and its wildlife....
    i. Allowing mountain bikes in a park greatly increases the damage
    to the trails, damage from "bootleg" (illegally created) trails, and
    the problems of conflicts between trail users, and hence the cost of
    maintaining the park. Considering how tight park budgets are, we can't
    afford the extra costs of policing, and repairing the damage from,
    mountain biking.
    j. For the science on mountain biking and its impacts on wildlife
    and people, seehttp://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7.htm.

    4. Mountain bikers claim that their sport has no greater environmental
    impact than hiking. Is that true?
    a.If you read the "studies" that make that claim, you find that they
    don't really compare the impacts of hiking and mountain biking, but
    only the impacts per foot. If, for a moment, we assume that the
    studies are correct in their having equivalent impacts per foot, it
    would still follow that mountain biking has far greater impact per
    person, since mountain bikers typically travel so much farther than
    hikers. Besides overlooking distances travelled, those "studies"
    almost all ignore impacts on wildlife. And they don't study mountain
    biking under normal conditions -- only at a very slow speed. Actually,
    the comparison with hiking is irrelevant. It would only be relevant if
    we planned to allow only one of the two, and were considering which of
    the two is more harmful. In fact, no one is considering banning
    hiking. We are only considering adding mountain biking. Therefore, the
    only relevant question is, "Is mountain biking harmful"? (Of course,
    it is!) There is only one truly scientific study that I know of that
    compares the impacts of hiking and mountain biking. It found that
    mountain biking has a greater impact on elk than hiking (Wisdom, M.
    J., H. K. Preisler, N. J. Cimon, B. K. Johnson. 2004. Effects of
    Off-Road Recreation on Mule Deer and Elk. Transactions of the North
    American Wildlife and Natural Resource Conference 69, 2004,
    pp.531-550.) Seehttp://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7.
    b. On its web site, IMBA mentions recent research on mountain
    biking by Dave White et al and Jeff Marion, both of whom claim that
    mountain biking and hiking have "similar" impacts. Is that true?
    First, "similar" is not a scientific term and really has no clear
    meaning. That term is being used only to obfuscate. Second, these are
    survey studies, not experimental studies. By its very nature, a survey
    study cannot be used to compare the impacts from two activities,
    because it doesn't control all the variables. For example, we don't
    know if the differences in erosion between two trails are due to the
    mountain biking vs. hiking use, or due to differences in the weather,
    terrain, steepness, soil type, management practices, amount of use,
    hikers on the "mountain biking trail", mountain bikers on the "hiking
    trail", etc. White et al only measured their trails once, and didn't
    even collect any data on hiking impacts! Seehttp://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/whiteandhttp://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/marion.
    c. Why would a researcher risk his/her reputation by doing
    such shoddy work? For money! And to ensure the continuance of their
    sport. If land managers think that mountain biking is more harmful
    than hiking, they will be more likely to close trails to bikes. Bike
    parts manufacturer Shimano paid Professor White to do his study.
    Research funds are difficult to obtain. A researcher who can be relied
    upon to produce research favorable to mountain biking will be able to
    obtain funding from the mountain biking industry. A researcher who
    tells the truth about mountain biking won't be able to obtain research
    funds and will risk stunting his/her career.
    5. Where should mountain biking allowed? A couple of role models for
    wildlife protection are Yosemite National Park and East Bay Municipal
    Utility District (in Alameda and Contra Costa counties, California).
    They both restrict bicycles to paved roads, where they can't do much
    harm. Somehow bicyclists have managed to enjoy their sport for over a
    hundred years, without riding off-road.

    6. What should the policy be on trails? Closed to bikes, unless marked
    open. Signs that say "No Bikes" are quickly and repeatedly ripped out
    of the ground by mountain bikers.

    7. Isn't it discriminatory to allow hikers and equestrians on trails,
    but not mountain bikers? Mountain bikers love to say this, apparently
    because they think it will gain them some sympathy. The truth is that
    mountain bikers have exactly the same access to trails that everyone
    else has! It is only their bikes that are banned. If mountain bikers
    were really being discriminated against, they could easily go to court
    to gain access. However ... they already have access to every trail in
    the world!

    8. Don't I have a right to mountain bike on all public lands? I am a
    taxpayer! The public has the right, through its elected
    representatives, to restrict how land is used. A federal court has
    already ruled that there is no right to mountain bike. It is a
    privilege, and any land manager who gives a good reason (such as
    safety or protecting the environment) can keep bikes off of trails
    (seehttp://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/mtb10.htm).

    9. Don't mountain bikers do some good things, like trail construction
    and trail maintenance? Trail construction destroys wildlife habitat
    both directly (by killing plants and animals) and indirectly (by
    reducing the size of the intervening "islands" of habitat). Moreover,
    mountain bikers favor trails that are "twisty" (sinuous), bumpy, and
    full of obstacles that provide thrills for mountain bikers. Such
    designs increase habitat destruction (by lengthening the trail) and
    make the trails less useful for hikers and equestrians. Trail
    maintenance sounds good, until you realize that it would hardly be
    necessary, if bikes weren't allowed there. The mountain bikers are the
    main reason why trail maintenance is necessary! Trails used only by
    hikers require hardly any maintenance. Therefore, admitting bicycles
    to a park greatly increases its cost of maintenance. Nothing is really
    "free", including trail construction and maintenance. (How does the
    saying go? "Beware of Trojans bearing gifts"?)

    10. But don't mountain bikers provide added safety, by being able to
    quickly summon help in the event of an emergency? I would rather trust
    in a cell phone, than a speeding mountain biker. Besides, natural
    areas are already one of the safest places you can be. In over 50
    years of hiking and backpacking, I have never witnessed any situation
    requiring emergency aid. Most people go to natural areas partly for
    solitude. If we wanted to be around large, fast-moving pieces of
    machinery, we would stay in the city!

    11. Can't mountain biking help get our overweight kids off the couch?
    Hiking can already do that, without causing extra harm to wildlife and
    people. Mountain biking downhill provides zero exercise benefit.
    Mountain biking on level ground provides minimal exercise benefit,
    much less than walking. Since it's impossible to pay any attention to
    your surroundings while mountain biking (or you will crash), there's
    no reason to promote mountain biking. It benefits only those who stand
    to make money off of it, such as bike manufacturers, retailers, and
    tour companies.

    12. Doesn't mountain biking get people out of their cars? So do
    walking, road cycling, and transit use, without harm to the natural
    environment. Since very few mountain biking opportunities are within
    easy bicycling distance, the vast majority of mountain bike trips
    require transporting the bike in a truck, SUV, or car. If mountain
    bikers cared about the environment, they would bicycle to the park,
    lock their bike at the trailhead, and hike. Or simply bicycle on paved
    roads, as bicyclists have for the past century.

    13. Doesn't the threat from mountain biking pale, in comparison to
    other sources of environmental damage, such as logging? Maybe, and
    maybe not. Mountain biking teaches people that the rough treatment of
    nature is acceptable, so it may lead to many other abuses. In parks,
    where most mountain biking is done, it is probably the most harmful
    activity allowed. But even if mountain biking is less damaging than
    another activity, such as logging, it is still additional damage. If
    an area is already messed up (e.g. by logging), how does that make it
    okay to do additional damage? It doesn't!

    14. What's wrong with night riding? Humans have been destroying
    wildlife habitat for centuries, so that very little remains. Our
    presence in parks prevents wildlife from using a large part of their
    habitat, at least during the daytime. Now that night riding is
    becoming popular, wildlife and being denied that habitat even at
    night, or incur an increased risk getting run over, if they attempt to
    use it. There is very little law enforcement even during the day in
    these days of tight budgets. There is no patrolling of parks at night!
    This gives mountain bikers free rein to do whatever they want,
    including riding trails that are closed to bikes or even building
    their own illegal trails. No wonder night riding is so popular! And,
    of course, night riding makes an activity that is already very
    dangerous, much more dangerous.

    Note: I was the Chair of the Wildlife Committee of the Sierra Club's
    San Francisco Bay Area Chapter for the past decade. During the same
    period, I studied conservation biology and the environmental impacts
    of mountain biking, which are summarized in my paper "The Impacts of
    Mountain Biking on Wildlife and People -- A Review of the Literature"http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7.htm.
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

    too long.

    Just for you: "Don't mountain bike. Period."
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  5. bruno said:
    Mike Vandeman said:

    Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking

    <snip>

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

    too long.

    Yes, and your attribution was a really effective use of bandwidth. :-|

    --
    jeverett3<AT>sbcglobal<DOT>net (John V. Everett)

  6. R p j said:


    "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Frequently Asked Questions about Mike Vandeman
    Michael Vandeman, Ph.D.
    Updated March 8, 2007

    Why am I such a pitiful troll? It is because I am a cyclophobic,
    sociophobic, waste of skin. It sucks to be me>

    So shun him and quit assigning him the celebrity status he craves by
    giving him all the attention. Simple, really.

    Mark Hickey
    Habanero Cycles
    http://www.habcycles.com
    Home of the $795 ti frame

  7. In message <[email hidden]>, Mike Vandeman
    <[email hidden]> writes
    unfounded, opinionated [censored].

    Did a mountain biker shag your wife?
    --
    Devs
    "Punchdown Pete the old Kroner"

  8. "Devs" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In message <[email hidden]>, Mike Vandeman
    <[email hidden]> writes
    unfounded, opinionated [censored].

    Did a mountain biker shag your wife?
    --
    Devs
    "Punchdown Pete the old Kroner"

    Are you kidding, Mike with a wife, his personality prevented that.

  9. bruno said:
    Mike Vandeman said:

    Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking


    <snip [censored]>

    Quoted message said:

    too long.

    Yes, and even slightly longer when you reposted it.

    But this FAQ makes me wonder about what makes a question frequently
    asked. If one kook asks the same question over and over does that make
    it frequently asked? Technically I guess it does. I think it may also
    tie nicely with the definition of insanity (doing the same ting over and
    over and expecting a different outcome).

    Does it make it worthy of a FAQ document? Debatable, with one proponent
    against everyone else. It definitely doesn't make it a document worth
    reading.

    Matt

  10. John Everett said:
    bruno said:
    Mike Vandeman said:

    Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking

    <snip>

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

    too long.

    Yes, and your attribution was a really effective use of bandwidth. :-|

    Too long. If you want to communicate with mountain bikers, you need to
    stick to words of one syl-la-ble.
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  11. On Fri, 09 Mar 2007 13:38:01 -0700, MattB <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    bruno said:
    Mike Vandeman said:

    Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking


    <snip [censored]>

    Quoted message said:

    too long.

    Yes, and even slightly longer when you reposted it.

    But this FAQ makes me wonder about what makes a question frequently
    asked. If one kook asks the same question over and over does that make
    it frequently asked? Technically I guess it does. I think it may also
    tie nicely with the definition of insanity (doing the same ting over and
    over and expecting a different outcome).

    Does it make it worthy of a FAQ document? Debatable, with one proponent
    against everyone else. It definitely doesn't make it a document worth
    reading.

    Matt

    Of course, we know that mountain bikers would prefer ANYTHING else,
    rather than discuss the damage that their selfish, destructive sport
    causes.
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  12. "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
    Michael Vandeman, Ph.D.
    Updated March 8, 2007

    Frequently asked by whom?

    You are a lying sack of [censored] Michael. You purport to have been a chair of an
    SC committee for the past decade, and this is a flat out lie. You may have
    been a chair at some point in the past decade, but stating that you have
    been FOR the past decade demands an ongoing chairmanship.

    I take back the "lying sack of [censored]" comment. You are not a lying sack of
    [censored] using the New Vandeman World Dictionary where word meaning varies
    depending on your intrepretation(s). Using the dictionaries that the rest of
    us use makes you a liar.

  13. Jeff Strickland said:

    "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
    Michael Vandeman, Ph.D.
    Updated March 8, 2007

    Frequently asked by whom?

    Why bother? He's a troll, and I think everybody catches on right
    away. Even the dumbest usenetter gets it pretty quickly.

    The givaway is this - when he gets cornered, it's "yawn" or "did you
    say something?" and he goes back under his bridge, or starts a new
    thread with a new tack.

    His goal is to waste time here and in the other groups, to distract
    folks from actually talking about their outdoor hobby.

    I don't think the response to him will ever reach zero, because
    there's a new hook baited every day, and a new fish to grab the bait.
    But you should know by now that replying to him is only creating more
    noise. And he likes it.

    Maybe you could listen to this request from a more rational person:
    please, please, please - don't respond. Just let him eat static. I,
    for one, would very much appreciate it.

    Thanks,

    E.P.

  14. In message <[email hidden]>, di <[email hidden]>
    writes

    Quoted message said:


    "Devs" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In message <[email hidden]>, Mike Vandeman
    <[email hidden]> writes
    unfounded, opinionated [censored].

    Did a mountain biker shag your wife?
    --
    Devs
    "Punchdown Pete the old Kroner"

    Are you kidding, Mike with a wife, his personality prevented that.


    Oh I get it, Mike has no life but because mountain bikers do, they are
    responsible for world famine, wars and global warming. Do you think he
    would shut up if we all chipped in and bought him a hooker?
    --
    Devs
    "Punchdown Pete the old Kroner"

  15. "Devs" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    Are you kidding, Mike with a wife, his personality prevented that.


    Oh I get it, Mike has no life but because mountain bikers do, they are
    responsible for world famine, wars and global warming. Do you think he
    would shut up if we all chipped in and bought him a hooker?
    --
    Devs

    It's doubtful if he would know what to do with a hooker, we would have to
    get a volunteer to coach him.

  16. On 10 Mar 2007 09:49:59 -0800, "Ed Pirrero" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Jeff Strickland said:

    "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
    Michael Vandeman, Ph.D.
    Updated March 8, 2007

    Frequently asked by whom?

    Why bother? He's a troll, and I think everybody catches on right
    away. Even the dumbest usenetter gets it pretty quickly.

    The givaway is this - when he gets cornered, it's "yawn" or "did you
    say something?" and he goes back under his bridge, or starts a new
    thread with a new tack.

    His goal is to waste time here and in the other groups, to distract
    folks from actually talking about their outdoor hobby.

    I don't think the response to him will ever reach zero, because
    there's a new hook baited every day, and a new fish to grab the bait.
    But you should know by now that replying to him is only creating more
    noise. And he likes it.

    Maybe you could listen to this request from a more rational person:
    please, please, please - don't respond. Just let him eat static. I,
    for one, would very much appreciate it.

    Too bad mountain bikers don't even listen to their own peers! You are
    wasting your breath.

    Quoted message said:

    Thanks,

    E.P.


    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  17. Jeff Strickland said:


    "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
    Michael Vandeman, Ph.D.
    Updated March 8, 2007

    Frequently asked by whom?

    You are a lying sack of [censored] Michael. You purport to have been a chair of an
    SC committee for the past decade, and this is a flat out lie. You may have
    been a chair at some point in the past decade, but stating that you have
    been FOR the past decade demands an ongoing chairmanship.

    At the time I wrote that, I had been the chair for a decade. So
    where's the lie? Missing in action, as usual. That makes YOU the liar.
    No surprize there!
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  18. Mike Vandeman said:
    Jeff Strickland said:


    "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
    Michael Vandeman, Ph.D.
    Updated March 8, 2007

    Frequently asked by whom?

    You are a lying sack of [censored] Michael. You purport to have been a chair of an
    SC committee for the past decade, and this is a flat out lie. You may have
    been a chair at some point in the past decade, but stating that you have
    been FOR the past decade demands an ongoing chairmanship.

    At the time I wrote that, I had been the chair for a decade. So
    where's the lie? Missing in action, as usual. That makes YOU the liar.
    No surprize there!

    As a Sierra Club National Outings leader I have access to internal
    club data bases. I don't know in which area of the club Mike claims to
    be/have been active, but I just checked the rosters of all 23 outings
    subcommittees and Mike not only doesn't chair any of them but he isn't
    even a member of any of them.

    --
    jeverett3<AT>sbcglobal<DOT>net (John V. Everett)

  19. "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Jeff Strickland said:


    "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
    Michael Vandeman, Ph.D.
    Updated March 8, 2007

    Frequently asked by whom?

    You are a lying sack of [censored] Michael. You purport to have been a chair of
    an
    SC committee for the past decade, and this is a flat out lie. You may have
    been a chair at some point in the past decade, but stating that you have
    been FOR the past decade demands an ongoing chairmanship.

    At the time I wrote that, I had been the chair for a decade. So
    where's the lie? Missing in action, as usual. That makes YOU the liar.
    No surprize there!

    YOU updated the article on March 8, 2007, by your own admission. This was 3
    days ago. You have not been chair of anything having to do with the SC for
    the past decade. Indeed, you are persona non grata at the SC for as long as
    I have been visiting ca.environment, which is about 7 years.

    You are a lying sack of [censored].

  20. "John Everett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Mike Vandeman said:
    Jeff Strickland said:


    "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...
    > Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
    > Michael Vandeman, Ph.D.
    > Updated March 8, 2007
    >

    Frequently asked by whom?

    You are a lying sack of [censored] Michael. You purport to have been a chair of
    an
    SC committee for the past decade, and this is a flat out lie. You may
    have
    been a chair at some point in the past decade, but stating that you have
    been FOR the past decade demands an ongoing chairmanship.

    At the time I wrote that, I had been the chair for a decade. So
    where's the lie? Missing in action, as usual. That makes YOU the liar.
    No surprize there!

    As a Sierra Club National Outings leader I have access to internal
    club data bases. I don't know in which area of the club Mike claims to
    be/have been active, but I just checked the rosters of all 23 outings
    subcommittees and Mike not only doesn't chair any of them but he isn't
    even a member of any of them.

    Mike is not a member of the Club anymore.

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