Frankenfoods -article

Cubit said:

I tend to define Frankenfoods to include more than the genetically

modified

Quoted message said:

Frankenfoods, which this article is about.

http://www.detnews.com/2005/health/0504/12/A03-140944.htm

"Nobody's been able to prove that anyone's even gotten the sniffles
from biotechnology," Childs said.

silly fda, that's not the point. you're supposed to prove it *doesn't*
cause harm, not that no harm has *already* been caused. you're not
supposed to say, "no one has proven this unsafe." you're supposed to
day, "this *has been proven* safe."

whatever. it costs me my entire bank account (it has this semester, at
least, coupled with gas bills) but i buy as much organic food as i can
afford. i don't trust the fda with my health, just like i don't trust
the epa with our natural resources. watch out for strawberries, grapes
and spinach, which are most heavily sprayed with pesticides. and watch
the milk from cows treated with the bovine-growth hormone, cows that
are probably diseased as it is from poor conditions. and meat. ugh,
those poor cattle, eating their own feces and being pumped full of
hormones. organic milk tastes much, much different than milk that has
been taken from factory-farm cows. think about it-- why should it?

it's amazing how little intimacy we have with our food in our culture,
and how little we care about not only what we put in our bodies, but
our environments as well, and how we treat living things. we take
calves (or veal) away from their mothers almost immediately and
purposefully malnourish them so that their meat is more tender and
appetizing to consumers. massive factory farming is destroying our
external AND internal environments-- who knows what chemicals we have
lurking in our bodies, our rivers, and our air. i was a vegetarian for
years, but now i usually eat organically raised chicken and beef when i
do. i rarely order meat at restaurants though.

"whatever. it costs me my entire bank account (it has this semester, at

least, coupled with gas bills) but i buy as much organic food as i can
afford. i don't trust the fda with my health, just like i don't trust
the epa with our natural resources. watch out for strawberries, grapes
and spinach, which are most heavily sprayed with pesticides. and watch
the milk from cows treated with the bovine-growth hormone, cows that
are probably diseased as it is from poor conditions. and meat."

Of course being someone with such a jaundiced view of the world, you
have no problem trusting whoever put the "organic" label on your food,
right? I mean if their crop was about to go under from some insect,
they wouldn't resort to using a pesticide and not tell anyone right?
Or if the crop came up short, some farmer wouldn't get some regular
product and mix it in, so he could sell it for 3X? LOL

Quoted message said:

"whatever. it costs me my entire bank account (it has this semester,

at

Quoted message said:

least, coupled with gas bills) but i buy as much organic food as i

can

Quoted message said:

afford. i don't trust the fda with my health, just like i don't trust
the epa with our natural resources. watch out for strawberries,

grapes

Quoted message said:

and spinach, which are most heavily sprayed with pesticides. and

watch

Quoted message said:

the milk from cows treated with the bovine-growth hormone, cows that
are probably diseased as it is from poor conditions. and meat."

Of course being someone with such a jaundiced view of the world, you
have no problem trusting whoever put the "organic" label on your

food,

Quoted message said:

right? I mean if their crop was about to go under from some insect,
they wouldn't resort to using a pesticide and not tell anyone right?
Or if the crop came up short, some farmer wouldn't get some regular
product and mix it in, so he could sell it for 3X? LOL

having a 'jaundiced' view of factory farming doesn't mean one has a
jaundiced view of the world. i think it's safe to say that we treat
animals, our enviornment, and our own bodies relatively poorly when it
comes to food. are we supposed to sit back and ignore it all? to answer
your question, i trust local farmers. i don't trust so much the organic
valley and horizon brands (the big companies, i mean) because some of
them have been bought out by conglomerates that produce tons of
non-organic food.

It's interesting how people come to all kinds of justifications in
their own minds. Like the local farmer must not have used pesticide,
while foods marked as organic from a large company probably do. How do
you know what the local farmer does? Do you watch him? Do you test
his soil?

The simple fact is that responsible use of chemicals is what has put
agriculture where it is today and fed the world. Without chemicals, a
lot more people in the world would be starving. And even here in the
US, if we all paid 3X for food, that would be a tragic mistake. That
money could make a far bigger improvement in life if it were allocated
to other area, like health care or education. And if the vegetables
we're all eating are soooo bad and unhealthy, it's quite remarkable
that the average life expectancy at the beginning of the last century
was around 50, while today it's 76.

Someday, when you leave academia for the real world, you'll learn that
in life there are tradeoffs. Nothing is perfect. Using vegetables
from the local supermarket is one of the many things that almost all of
us do everyday that don't entail any significant risk.

BTW, what does any of this have to do with low carb?

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Cubit said:

I tend to define Frankenfoods to include more than the genetically

modified

Quoted message said:

Frankenfoods, which this article is about.

http://www.detnews.com/2005/health/0504/12/A03-140944.htm

"Nobody's been able to prove that anyone's even gotten the sniffles
from biotechnology," Childs said.

silly fda, that's not the point. you're supposed to prove it *doesn't*
cause harm, not that no harm has *already* been caused. you're not
supposed to say, "no one has proven this unsafe." you're supposed to
day, "this *has been proven* safe."

Ahh... the precautionary principle run amok. I certainly hope that
40,000 years ago, Ogg did all the decades of necessary testing before he
first stuck a piece of meat in a fire and cooked it.

Quoted message said:

whatever. it costs me my entire bank account (it has this semester, at
least, coupled with gas bills) but i buy as much organic food as i can
afford.

At the local supermarket, a dozen eggs are 79 cents. a dozen "organic"
eggs are $2.79. I find it difficult to believe that it's worth paying
three and a half times as much for a virtually identical product with
the "organic" label slapped on it.

--
---
Chris Smolinski
Black Cat Systems
http://www.blackcatsystems.com

in addition, when you buy from local farmers, you are also putting
money back into community vs. giving it away to some large company
based somewhere a thousand miles away.

i try to buy organic whenever i can, and from local farmers (the santa
monica wednesday farmer's markets are a godsend). i find that their
produce, and even the way they do business, has so much more integrity
than buying it from a big-chain-bulk-discounter.

i understand that buying and eating organic and "healthy" food (food is
never healthy if one eats too much of even healthy stuff!) is very much
a privilege limited to those of an upper economic class, but i am
optimistic that as more and more people demand food that isn't
genetically modified or laden with pesticides, that the market will
grow and spark competition, thus making this type of food more readily
available (and affordable).

check out this bit in the la times about organic food and the
burgeoning farmer's market movement:

http://www.latimes.com/features/food/?track=hpleftnav-food

(scroll down, as they were last week's feature in the food section)

"i find that their produce, and even the way they do business, has so
much more integrity
than buying it from a big-chain-bulk-discounter. "

Wow, I never even knew produce could have integrity! You mean the
vegetables don't lie, cheat, or steal? Personally, I will sometimes
buy produce at a farmer's market because it's generally fresher.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Her Subj. said:

in addition, when you buy from local farmers, you are also putting
money back into community vs. giving it away to some large company
based somewhere a thousand miles away.

i try to buy organic whenever i can, and from local farmers (the santa
monica wednesday farmer's markets are a godsend). i find that their
produce, and even the way they do business, has so much more integrity
than buying it from a big-chain-bulk-discounter.

i understand that buying and eating organic and "healthy" food (food is
never healthy if one eats too much of even healthy stuff!) is very much
a privilege limited to those of an upper economic class, but i am
optimistic that as more and more people demand food that isn't
genetically modified or laden with pesticides, that the market will
grow and spark competition, thus making this type of food more readily
available (and affordable).

Isn't pretty much all food genetically modified? Haven't farmers been
crossbreeding since the beginning of farming?

Her Subj. <[email hidden]> wrote:
:> in addition, when you buy from local farmers, you are also putting
:> money back into community vs. giving it away to some large company
:> based somewhere a thousand miles away.
:>
:> i try to buy organic whenever i can, and from local farmers (the
:> santa monica wednesday farmer's markets are a godsend). i find that
:> their produce, and even the way they do business, has so much more
:> integrity than buying it from a big-chain-bulk-discounter.

You find that their produce has more integrity?

:>
:> i understand that buying and eating organic and "healthy" food (food
:> is never healthy if one eats too much of even healthy stuff!) is
:> very much a privilege limited to those of an upper economic class,
:> but i am optimistic that as more and more people demand food that
:> isn't genetically modified or laden with pesticides, that the market
:> will grow and spark competition, thus making this type of food more
:> readily available (and affordable).

You're still assuming that organic food is more healthy...and you're paying
the price for that assumption....I hope you're not being duped...

:>
:> check out this bit in the la times about organic food and the
:> burgeoning farmer's market movement:
:>
:> http://www.latimes.com/features/food/?track=hpleftnav-food
:>
:> (scroll down, as they were last week's feature in the food section)

"At the local supermarket, a dozen eggs are 79 cents. a dozen "organic"

eggs are $2.79. I find it difficult to believe that it's worth paying
three and a half times as much for a virtually identical product with
the "organic" label slapped on it. "

That reminds me of a couple of great stories that show how naive people
can be. I live in an area of NJ where chicken farming was very common
in the post WWII era. A friend I knew in grade school lived on a
chicken farm that produced eggs. They sold eggs retail right at the
farm. Well, over time, the NJ farmers were driven extinct by large
farms down south that had lower costs for fuel, labor, energy, etc.
So, guess what my friend's family did? They got rid of their chickens
and started buying eggs wholesale from down south. Of course, they
never told anyone about it. In fact, they even kept the "Don't blow
horn, it will scare the chickens" sign, and the "Fresh local eggs" sign
at their farm. My friend even brought eggs to high school and sold
them to the teachers. They thought they were getting nice, fresh,
better, eggs. In fact, they were getting the same thing they could
have bought at the supermarket. In fact, it might even be worse, as at
least supermarket eggs are maintained at the proper temp, have dates on
them and are sold quickly. This same "farm" operation plowed an acre
or two of land to get farmland assessment for taxes and crop subsidies.

Now for the second story. One day as a kid, I was out exploring in the
woods with a friend. We were on the other side of a stream from
another local egg producer. We saw a couple of guys approaching on the
farm side of the stream, so we hid an watched. The guys had feed bags
and were throwing them in the stream. At first, we couldn't figure
out what was going on. After they left, we looked down stream and it
became obvious. There were some older bags caught in debris and ripped
open. Inside were dead chickens! They were using the stream to
dispose of their dead chickens.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying all small farmers do these
things. Only that doing illegal or unsafe things is not confined to
large operations. In fact, I doubt Frank Perdu throws his dead
chickens in the river. You can find some people that are going to do
bad things anywhere. And trusting people just because they show up at
a farmer's market or are a local farmer, doesn't necessarily mean much.

In fact, I doubt Frank Perdu throws his dead

Quoted message said:

chickens in the river.

Especially since Perdue died in April.

Quoted message said:

It's interesting how people come to all kinds of justifications in
their own minds. Like the local farmer must not have used pesticide,
while foods marked as organic from a large company probably do.

that's not what i said. i said i don't trust them as much as i do a
local, cooperative farming community because they are not wholly
committed to the 'principles' of organic farming. in this case it is
not as much about my personal health as for a personal statement. for
me, part of my choice is based in a form of protest. i would rather
support local farmers who profess to practice sustainability (with the
certification) than a large conglomerate who uses one hand for
sustainability and one hand for factory-farming.

How do

Quoted message said:

you know what the local farmer does? Do you watch him? Do you test
his soil?

The simple fact is that responsible use of chemicals is what has put
agriculture where it is today and fed the world.

agriculture 'where it is today' is more destructive and wasteful than
it us sustaining.

Without chemicals, a

Quoted message said:

lot more people in the world would be starving. And even here in the
US, if we all paid 3X for food, that would be a tragic mistake. That
money could make a far bigger improvement in life if it were

allocated

Quoted message said:

to other area, like health care or education. And if the vegetables
we're all eating are soooo bad and unhealthy, it's quite remarkable
that the average life expectancy at the beginning of the last century
was around 50, while today it's 76.

Someday, when you leave academia for the real world, you'll learn

that

Quoted message said:

in life there are tradeoffs.

tradeoff: paying more money to support organic and sustainable farming,
as well as cruelty-free farming, despite the chances that, as you said
above, farmers and companies are being dishonest.

Nothing is perfect. Using vegetables

Quoted message said:

from the local supermarket is one of the many things that almost all

of

Quoted message said:

us do everyday that don't entail any significant risk.

you don't really know whether it's been a risk to anyone. there are
lots of unexplainable illnesses and allergies.

Quoted message said:

BTW, what does any of this have to do with low carb?

it's a crossposted thread to alt.support.diet.

i don't see why it matters so much to you that i choose to support
local organic farmers in lieu of huge comglomerates. it's the same
reason i shop at salvation army instead of walmart, or ride a bicycle
when possible to save gas. if you don't want to make a contribution in
this way, then that's fine for you, but i think it's interesting how
critical you are of someone who is merely trying to be less wasteful.
and, in the case of animal cruelty, would prefer to buy from the farmer
who claims to raise his animals in a natural and humane manner. is he
lying? it's possible, though improbable, but i'd rather give him the
benefit of the doubt than support the others who blatantly do it.

Chris Smolinski said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Cubit said:

I tend to define Frankenfoods to include more than the

genetically

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

modified

Quoted message said:

Frankenfoods, which this article is about.

http://www.detnews.com/2005/health/0504/12/A03-140944.htm

"Nobody's been able to prove that anyone's even gotten the sniffles
from biotechnology," Childs said.

silly fda, that's not the point. you're supposed to prove it

*doesn't*

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cause harm, not that no harm has *already* been caused. you're not
supposed to say, "no one has proven this unsafe." you're supposed

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

day, "this *has been proven* safe."

Ahh... the precautionary principle run amok. I certainly hope that
40,000 years ago, Ogg did all the decades of necessary testing before

he

Quoted message said:

first stuck a piece of meat in a fire and cooked it.

what is the point of having an FDA if their idea of regulating products
is to say, 'it hasn't hurt anyone yet'?

Quoted message said:

At the local supermarket, a dozen eggs are 79 cents. a dozen

"organic"

Quoted message said:

eggs are $2.79. I find it difficult to believe that it's worth paying

Quoted message said:

three and a half times as much for a virtually identical product with

Quoted message said:

the "organic" label slapped on it.

it's worth it for me if the label also claims to be cruelty-free. i'm
paying for 1) the natural, unadulterated state of the product and 2)
the fact that the animals have not been abused or mistreated. and the
product is not 'identical', not even in taste.

Quoted message said:

--
---
Chris Smolinski
Black Cat Systems
http://www.blackcatsystems.com

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying all small farmers do these
things. Only that doing illegal or unsafe things is not confined to
large operations. In fact, I doubt Frank Perdu throws his dead
chickens in the river. You can find some people that are going to do
bad things anywhere. And trusting people just because they show up at
a farmer's market or are a local farmer, doesn't necessarily mean much.

There's a big dust up going on between Arkansas and Oklahoma about river
pollution from chicken farming (Tyson.)

--
No Husband Has Ever Been Shot While Doing The Dishes

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It's interesting how people come to all kinds of justifications in
their own minds. Like the local farmer must not have used pesticide,
while foods marked as organic from a large company probably do. How do
you know what the local farmer does? Do you watch him? Do you test
his soil?

Don't you guys have any enforced standards? In the UK, organic farmers
regularly get their soil tested, to maintain their organic status. No
status, no sticker on the product, no price premium.

Nicky.

--
A1c 10.5/4.5/<6 Weight 95/77/72Kg
1g Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine
T2 DX 05/2004

"Ignoramus20928" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

As far as I understand, trader4 talked about a misconception that
local farmers are somehow better than non-local farmers. trader4 did
not talk about standards of organic food.

OK. I prefer to buy from my local farmers for crops in season, to save
environmental shipping costs. I doubt they're more ethical, or whatever,
than people a few miles away - but I get to walk through their fields every
day, and I see lots of insects, birds and bunnies thriving. Out of season, I
buy foods that I need from wherever, with a few exceptions - I try not to
buy anything from Zimbabwe, for instance. If organic is important, I try to
grow it myself so I buy less. The tomatoes and strawberries look good this
year; something is eating my French beans to ribbons, and late frosts have
zapped one of my lettuce pots.

Nicky.

--
A1c 10.5/4.5/<6 Weight 95/77/72Kg
1g Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine
T2 DX 05/2004

What matters to me is that you spouted a lot of nonsense, telling
people they should be worried about eating spinach, strawberries, milk
from cows, etc, unless it's organic. And that you malign an
agricultural industry that has fed billions of people safely and
economically. You can go ahead and eat your organic foods from a
cooperative, if that makes you feel better. But don't try to scare the
rest of us.

And you still apparently don't realize that without the use of
chemicals, there would be a lot less food in the world, with a lot more
people starving. Maybe that's a trade off you're willing to make, but
most of us would not. And if everyone paid 3X for produce, a lot of
money would be going to inefficient farming on the faulty notion that
it's going to improve our lives. That money could surely do far more
good going into areas with a sure return, like healthcare, education,
etc. People like you would rather get caught up in some emotional,
narrow interest, instead of looking at the big picture.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Luna said:

Isn't pretty much all food genetically modified? Haven't farmers been
crossbreeding since the beginning of farming?

Yes. But do you expect the greenies to comprehend that? Besides,
anything man does has to be evil, by definition.

--
---
Chris Smolinski
Black Cat Systems
http://www.blackcatsystems.com

this is a really heated topic and i'm not going to try to expound my
ideas on organic vs. inorganic food to this ng, but i want to remark
that when i lived in france, the olde tyme (!) fruit stand owner in the
neighborhood in which i lived (5eme) would have tirades whenever
american agricultural practices were brought up. now, i don't really
know the inner-workings of french agriculture, but the stand owner
didn't understand why americans didn't look at things in a preventive
way. for example, there hasn't been enough research to support the fact
that gmos are safe, but since the foods produced by gmo science haven't
inflicted much harm in anyone yet, the assumption is that the foods are
okay.

i suppose i really liked the way the french thought of their food. i
know gmos have been around since about the 1950s, but these days
they've reduced species of corn (once over 100 different varieties) in
the united states into something like under 50.

ugly looking vegetables (not talking about ROTTING veggies) taste way
better anyway. give me a disfigured heirloom tomato over any of those
water anomalies at supermarket X anyday.

go ahead and flame me for being a tree-hugger or whatever they call
californians. because i am. 🙂