Framebuilders pricing...

Terryc said:

Theo Bekkers said:

$500 got you an entry level non-K-Mart bike in 1987, not an
expensive one. I paid $1800 for a bike in 1987.

And how many times since then have you ridden around Australia on it?

You've lost me there. I've never ridden around Oz. That bike has probably
done 60-80,000 kms. The best part was that the company I worked for at the
time paid me $4500 per annum 'car allowance' for the ten years I rode it to
work. Really paid for itself. :-)

Theo

Theo Bekkers said:

Terryc said:

Theo Bekkers said:

$500 got you an entry level non-K-Mart bike in 1987, not an
expensive one. I paid $1800 for a bike in 1987.

And how many times since then have you ridden around Australia on it?

You've lost me there. I've never ridden around Oz. That bike has probably
done 60-80,000 kms. The best part was that the company I worked for at the
time paid me $4500 per annum 'car allowance' for the ten years I rode it to
work. Really paid for itself. :-)

Well, that was a good investment.
You're excused from not riding around Australia.

My point is that it doesn't really matter what you pay for the bicycle,
it is what you do with it that counts and since a bicycle costing X,000
never goes X times faster than one cost ?< 1,000, I've never seen the
advantage of buying $X,000 bicycles

Sigh, wet day and all my outside projects have come to a stop. report
writing time.

In aus.bicycle on Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:36:23 +1000

Terryc said:

My point is that it doesn't really matter what you pay for the bicycle,
it is what you do with it that counts and since a bicycle costing X,000
never goes X times faster than one cost ?< 1,000, I've never seen the
advantage of buying $X,000 bicycles

Neither did I. Till the 'bent.

I was damn glad to pay the extra for the Bacchetta over the taiwanese
cheapy, having ridden the cheapie which wasn't as comfortable and was
alot less stable on steep descents.

Sure, the Giro is more than 3x what a "decent" flat bar roadie costs,
but a bike you ride is cheaper than the one you don't

Zebee

Zebee Johnstone said:

In aus.bicycle on Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:36:23 +1000

Terryc said:

My point is that it doesn't really matter what you pay for the bicycle,
it is what you do with it that counts and since a bicycle costing X,000
never goes X times faster than one cost ?< 1,000, I've never seen the
advantage of buying $X,000 bicycles

Neither did I. Till the 'bent.

I was damn glad to pay the extra for the Bacchetta over the taiwanese
cheapy, having ridden the cheapie which wasn't as comfortable and was
alot less stable on steep descents.

Sure, the Giro is more than 3x what a "decent" flat bar roadie costs,
but a bike you ride is cheaper than the one you don't

Zebee

Which is fine, but if you can spend $500 and find a) a decent fit, and
b)something that will suit what you want it to do, then you are a
winner. I can appreciate that a higher price equals higher quality, to
a point. But there is a level above which every dollar is simply 'more
than what you spent on your bike'.

Brendo

Terryc said:

My point is that it doesn't really matter what you pay for the bicycle,
it is what you do with it that counts and since a bicycle costing X,000
never goes X times faster than one cost ?< 1,000, I've never seen the
advantage of buying $X,000 bicycles

Maybe but I'm not sure I'd choose to do much DH riding on one costing <$1000

Parbs

In aus.bicycle on 24 Apr 2007 00:37:35 -0700

Brendo said:

Which is fine, but if you can spend $500 and find a) a decent fit, and
b)something that will suit what you want it to do, then you are a
winner. I can appreciate that a higher price equals higher quality, to
a point. But there is a level above which every dollar is simply 'more
than what you spent on your bike'.

Well.. the taiwanese one would have done the job.

But not as well as the one I bought, which I didn't really realise
till I rode the Giro.

I had figured "well, I'll go down to Flying Furniture and test ride
cos I know that Andrew's Optima's there and he's a shortarse so it
might fit, and I'll see what else is around".

The Optima wasn't there anymore, the only bike to fit was either a new
version of the cheapie I could buy from the original owner 2nd hand,
or else the Giro.

Hopped on the Giro, twice around the block, thought "woo bloody hoo!" and
bought it on the spot.

Zebee

Quoted message said:

Well.. the taiwanese one would have done the job.

But not as well as the one I bought, which I didn't really realise
till I rode the Giro.

Which means the Taiwanese one would not have done the job, because it
was deficient in certain area's. Which is my point.

I agree, when you want something to tick EVERY box, you need to pay
for it. But, if ticking only 10 of the 15 boxes equates to what you
want, then that will do.

Brendo

In aus.bicycle on 24 Apr 2007 17:24:51 -0700

Brendo said:

Quoted message said:

Well.. the taiwanese one would have done the job.

But not as well as the one I bought, which I didn't really realise
till I rode the Giro.

Which means the Taiwanese one would not have done the job, because it
was deficient in certain area's. Which is my point.

And I didn't know it. I could have done OK with it, but it wasn't as
good as the expensive one. WHich, I think, describes all cheapies.

It's a matter of what you will put up with rather than "do the job".
IT would have done "the job" no question, just not as well.

Zebee

Parbs said:

Maybe but I'm not sure I'd choose to do much DH riding on one costing
<$1000

Why not? I wouldn't try to do it at race speed, but I was turning in quite
decent lap times at Yellowmundee last year on a bike that cost well under
$1000 [1]. I could ride that down the old Lithgow course [2] without any
real problem, and I've ridden less well suspended bikes down some pretty
silly trails.

In fact, I've seen you ride bikes with even less suspension down some very
silly trails.

Dave - who realises that's not quite what Parbs was trying to say, but
since when was creative misinterpretation frowned upon?

[1] Just cause it was made out of reject bits from more expensive bikes.

[2] Hassan's Walls, not State Mine.

--
Dave Hughes | [email hidden]
"Strata and syncline are not terms typically used in office
filing systems." - Doc Nickel

Dave said:

In fact, I've seen you ride bikes with even less suspension down some very
silly trails.

Yes, but you and i a probably getting close to being outliers on the
bell curve of sensible bike selection.

Parbs - who thinks Dave is probably further out.

Hi Brendo,

If you price our Tephra SL against a competing frame from the US, the
sums look like this :

IndyFab Crown Jewel - USD1900
Freight - USD400
Plus Duties and Taxes = USD2645
TOTAL - AUD3306

Our Equivalent model - the Tephra SL - every bit as good as an IF,
with local flavour, including a fitting by a local fit expert, is
AUD2995.

The next model down, the Tephra, is AUD2450. Again, very competitive.

Look at our local competitiors, as I've pointed out to you in our e-
mails, we're even more competitive in every respect, not just price.

You can pay as little or as much as you like for a frame, but at the
end of the day it's up to individual companies to set whatever prices
they like for whatever country they're selling in. Commodities aren't
the same prices regardless of where they're sold. Apples don't cost 5
bucks each here like they do in Tokyo, and local businesses sell their
wares for what they believe is fair market value, and what the market
will bare.

If your end game is to get the cheapest custom frame you can, then
there are certainly cheaper options out there than any local custom
bike company. Try Curtlo or Waltworks as a good stating point.

Quoted message said:

Hi Brendo,

If you price our Tephra SL against a competing frame from the US, the
sums look like this :

IndyFab Crown Jewel - USD1900
Freight - USD400
Plus Duties and Taxes = USD2645
TOTAL - AUD3306

Our Equivalent model - the Tephra SL - every bit as good as an IF,
with local flavour, including a fitting by a local fit expert, is
AUD2995.

The next model down, the Tephra, is AUD2450. Again, very competitive.

Look at our local competitiors, as I've pointed out to you in our e-
mails, we're even more competitive in every respect, not just price.

When I started the thread, I was under the impression that you were an
Australian framebuilder. If you had explained (or mentioned on your
website, which I went through pretty thoroughly) that your frames were
made overseas, and therefore I would have to pay shipping, GST and
import duties on a frame, I would have understood. As it was I thought
the local price (~$2450AUS) included a huge markup, compared with the
US price.

I agree, sell your frames for however much you want, but let people
know why the difference, not just 'We sell for whatever we want, it's
our decision'. How much harder would it have been to say 'The frames
need to be shipped into Australia, that is why the price is higher'.

As it is, comparing like with like, yes you make a good frame which is
competitive with the local framebuilders price wise. You just weren't
very clear (whether intended or not) on your reasons for pricing, and
that is why I started the thread, so that perhaps I could understand
why.

Brendo.

Brendo said:

Quoted message said:

Hi Brendo,

Quoted message said:

If you price our Tephra SL against a competing frame from the US, the
sums look like this :

Quoted message said:

IndyFab Crown Jewel - USD1900
Freight - USD400
Plus Duties and Taxes = USD2645
TOTAL - AUD3306

Quoted message said:

Our Equivalent model - the Tephra SL - every bit as good as an IF,
with local flavour, including a fitting by a local fit expert, is
AUD2995.

Quoted message said:

The next model down, the Tephra, is AUD2450. Again, very competitive.

Quoted message said:

Look at our local competitiors, as I've pointed out to you in our e-
mails, we're even more competitive in every respect, not just price.

When I started the thread, I was under the impression that you were an
Australian framebuilder. If you had explained (or mentioned on your
website, which I went through pretty thoroughly) that your frames were
made overseas, and therefore I would have to pay shipping, GST and
import duties on a frame, I would have understood. As it was I thought
the local price (~$2450AUS) included a huge markup, compared with the
US price.

I agree, sell your frames for however much you want, but let people
know why the difference, not just 'We sell for whatever we want, it's
our decision'. How much harder would it have been to say 'The frames
need to be shipped into Australia, that is why the price is higher'.

As it is, comparing like with like, yes you make a good frame which is
competitive with the local framebuilders price wise. You just weren't
very clear (whether intended or not) on your reasons for pricing, and
that is why I started the thread, so that perhaps I could understand
why.

Brendo.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Why does Thylacine have to give a price breakdown? Does your local LBS
tell you who gets the dollars out of every bike they sell? I can see
how the "local" element might be important to you, but surely a seller
is entitled to set his price regardless of where the bike is made,
without having to justify it in detail. If you don't like the price,
you've got options.

Donga

Quoted message said:

Why does Thylacine have to give a price breakdown? Does your local LBS
tell you who gets the dollars out of every bike they sell? I can see
how the "local" element might be important to you, but surely a seller
is entitled to set his price regardless of where the bike is made,
without having to justify it in detail. If you don't like the price,
you've got options.

Donga

Thylacine does not have to give a price breakdown on their frames. But
from my point of view, assuming (rightly or wrongly) that Thy was an
Australian builder, I was given a price if I lived in the US which was
much lower (after converting currency) than the price if I lived in
Aust. It puzzled me as to why an Australian frame builder would sell a
frame in the US for such a low price, when they would have to ship the
frames over and pay any import duties. Maybe my questions weren't
phrased ideally, maybe I missed any hints or clues that would have
resolved my queries. Either way, based on my assumptions, his pricing
system was puzzling.

If your local LBS had two stores, and sold Frame X for $1200 in your
suburb, but sold the same frame for $750 two suburbs away, wouldn't
you wonder why? And wouldn't you want to pay only $750? Or would you
happily pay more for the frame from the store in your suburb simply
because 'a seller
is entitled to set his price regardless of where the bike is made,
without having to justify it in detail'

Brendo

Brendo

On Apr 28, 9:46 pm, Brendo <[email hidden]> wrote:
snip

Quoted message said:

If your local LBS had two stores, and sold Frame X for $1200 in your
suburb, but sold the same frame for $750 two suburbs away, wouldn't
you wonder why? And wouldn't you want to pay only $750? Or would you
happily pay more for the frame from the store in your suburb simply
because 'a seller
is entitled to set his price regardless of where the bike is made,
without having to justify it in detail'

Actually, some city shops set their prices higher than some suburban
shops - and I suspect with the same owners and shop names. In the city
they have high costs, and people shop there for convenience, and might
have more money. They seem to judge they can get away with a higher
margin ... no different to your framepricing story. Like Thy says -
set the price to suit the local competition.

Donga

Quoted message said:

Actually, some city shops set their prices higher than some suburban
shops - and I suspect with the same owners and shop names. In the city
they have high costs, and people shop there for convenience, and might
have more money. They seem to judge they can get away with a higher
margin ... no different to your framepricing story. Like Thy says -
set the price to suit the local competition.

Donga

True.

But you have the choice of buying from the city shop or going to the
suburban one to buy the bike, and thereby saving yourself some $$

I didn't have the choice, due to where I lived. Given that overseas
transactions of a bicycle nature take place all the time (PBK etc) a
customer should be able to buy a product wherever they can find the
best price for the quality of good they want. Do PBK say, no because
you live in Australia you actually the base price for item x is $300
more than everyone else, plus the standard shipping, GST and duties?

I fully agree that a seller of a good can set whatever price they
wish, in whatever location they choose to sell that good. But I also
think that as a consumer, I should be able to buy that good from
whatever location makes the most economical sense.

The resident of the USA price I was given still came in around $300Aus
cheaper, even when shipping, duties, and GST were added. But due to
where I live, I have to pay more.

I just don't see why I should pay a higher price for the same item,
without any reason, other than pocketing more money off me. And that's
from my consumer point of view. In the long run, whether I buy one
frame or not is going to have bugger all difference on his business.

Good luck to him, I hope he does well.

Brendo.

Brendo said:

Quoted message said:

Actually, some city shops set their prices higher than some suburban
shops - and I suspect with the same owners and shop names. In the city
they have high costs, and people shop there for convenience, and might
have more money. They seem to judge they can get away with a higher
margin ... no different to your framepricing story. Like Thy says -
set the price to suit the local competition.

Quoted message said:

Donga

True.

But you have the choice of buying from the city shop or going to the
suburban one to buy the bike, and thereby saving yourself some $$

I didn't have the choice, due to where I lived. Given that overseas
transactions of a bicycle nature take place all the time (PBK etc) a
customer should be able to buy a product wherever they can find the
best price for the quality of good they want. Do PBK say, no because
you live in Australia you actually the base price for item x is $300
more than everyone else, plus the standard shipping, GST and duties?

I fully agree that a seller of a good can set whatever price they
wish, in whatever location they choose to sell that good. But I also
think that as a consumer, I should be able to buy that good from
whatever location makes the most economical sense.

The resident of the USA price I was given still came in around $300Aus
cheaper, even when shipping, duties, and GST were added. But due to
where I live, I have to pay more.

I just don't see why I should pay a higher price for the same item,
without any reason, other than pocketing more money off me. And that's
from my consumer point of view. In the long run, whether I buy one
frame or not is going to have bugger all difference on his business.

Good luck to him, I hope he does well.

Brendo.

You are missing the point - it's about the market (seller and buyer,
supply and demand) setting the price. You, clearly, are not in the
same market as Thylacine. So get over it and buy a cheaper bike.

Donga

Brendo said:

I just don't see why I should pay a higher price for the
same item, without any reason, other than pocketing more
money off me. And that's from my consumer point of view.
In the long run, whether I buy one frame or not is going to
have bugger all difference on his business.

You don't have to. You can give them a US address and ask him to ship the frame there. Then arrange for it to be shipped back.

Thylacine has the right to price their frames as they see fit. Clearly they're trying hard to break into the competitive US market, and pricing their frames to the US accordingly.

You have the right to not buy from them if you feel they're overcharging. You should also feel free to complain to your mates (as you clearly have done). You can't force them to sell something to you at a lower price without being in the lower price market though.

The Australian market for bike parts is miniscule, and local pricing reflects that. Pricing has nothing to do with what something costs to make, and everything to do with what the market is prepared to pay. Why else would the price difference between, for example, record and chorus parts be so huge when the difference in materials and quality is stuff-all.

Brendo said:

If your local LBS had two stores, and sold Frame X for $1200 in your suburb, but sold the same frame for $750 two suburbs away, wouldn't
you wonder why? And wouldn't you want to pay only $750? Or would you
happily pay more for the frame from the store in your suburb simply
because 'a seller is entitled to set his price regardless of where the bike is made, without having to justify it in detail'

Brendo

The problem with your analogy is that 15 000km isn't the same as two suburbs. You aren't taking into account the cost of getting the product from store A to store B. If all the LBS' deliveries came to store A, and it cost the business 30% of the item's value to get it to store B, of course they are going to charge more at store B.

quote='suzyj'Brendo said:

I just don't see why I should pay a higher price for the
same item, without any reason, other than pocketing more
money off me. And that's from my consumer point of view.
In the long run, whether I buy one frame or not is going to
have bugger all difference on his business.

You don't have to. You can give them a US address and ask him to ship the frame there. Then arrange for it to be shipped back.

Thylacine has the right to price their frames as they see fit. Clearly they're trying hard to break into the competitive US market, and pricing their frames to the US accordingly.

You have the right to not buy from them if you feel they're overcharging. You should also feel free to complain to your mates (as you clearly have done). You can't force them to sell something to you at a lower price without being in the lower price market though.

The Australian market for bike parts is miniscule, and local pricing reflects that. Pricing has nothing to do with what something costs to make, and everything to do with what the market is prepared to pay. Why else would the price difference between, for example, record and chorus parts be so huge when the difference in materials and quality is stuff-all.[/QUOTE]
Thylacine make all their bikes in the US, Brendo found that out after a bit of too-ing and fro-ing, but they are quite clear on their website their philosphy on a number of things, including where their bikes and components come from and why.

They have a marketing presence in the USA which serves that local demand. Their founder and owner happens to live in Melbourne and thus also supports local Oz enquiry to supply his bikes to order. Shipping to Oz is a factor of end price, just as much as market forces.

Obviously the first explanation Brendo got didnt clarify that, it embarked on a market pricing scenario that seemed odd to many readers.

There are heaps of frames in the market that people pay huge dollars for purley on market hype... call it bling, coffee shop cred, whatever you want...and those bikes are often not at all "value" when one looks at suitability for the new owner...but money is made round to go round...we each have to decide what we will choose to buy and why and that's that.

If securing the best value custom frame was the primary objective, it probably still can be sourced from Australia, and Melbourne at that...all depends on what each of us considers value, so that subjective thing "Value", objectively equates to market worth and what market demand/price expectation is...

Cheap often doesnt mean value, value isnt necessarily the best and the best isnt necessarily expensive, so its a merry go round to work your way through...

isnt life fun!