frame sheared :(

Matthew Vernon said:

My trusty Raleigh Royale has broken - the droptube has sheared through
(see bottom of post for picture). As I understand it, I have three
options:

i) buy new bike
ii) buy new frame
iii) get frame repaired

First thing to do is try iv), get in touch with Raleigh and ask them if
they'll replace it. I had a weld go on my old EBC Country after 7
years. It had a 2 year frame warranty. EBC replaced the frame FOC and
also transferred all the components onto the new frame FOC, and included
a new headset FOC. Only gothchas were I had to get it to them and pick
it up (not a Big Issue, it's only 60 miles) and the new frame was
midnight blue instead of dark sky blue. That won them a lot of customer
service kudos with me!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Matthew Vernon came up with the following;:

Quoted message said:

Is a repair likely to be a good solution, or does the fact that one
bit of the frame's failed mean the rest may give up in short order?

That's the bit that'd worry me, especially in the areas that took the strain
when the down tube fractured. A decent frame specialist would advise on
this likelihood though.

I get the impression from the picture that this wasn't a sudden fracture,
there appears to be rust down part of the crack, did you get any warning
this was happening? If it was a steady deterioration and you kept riding,
I'd have to think about the extra loads and flexing that the weakness
created in the rest of the frame. I'm not sure I could absolutely trust it
again.

Personally, I'd get a new frame / bike.

--
Paul ...
(8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!
For Sale on Ebay
5771988658

"Paul - [censored]" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Matthew Vernon came up with the following;:

Quoted message said:

Is a repair likely to be a good solution, or does the fact that one
bit of the frame's failed mean the rest may give up in short order?

That's the bit that'd worry me, especially in the areas that took the

strain

Quoted message said:

when the down tube fractured. A decent frame specialist would advise on
this likelihood though.

I get the impression from the picture that this wasn't a sudden fracture,
there appears to be rust down part of the crack, did you get any warning
this was happening? If it was a steady deterioration and you kept riding,
I'd have to think about the extra loads and flexing that the weakness
created in the rest of the frame. I'm not sure I could absolutely trust

it

Quoted message said:

again.

[ note r.b.t. added to newsgroup header ]

This is a classic heat-affected-zone fracture.

Good frame building technique can reduce the likelyhood of this happening
again, in the joints that are repaired - but other original joints may well
have a greater than acceptable chance of the same fracture. You should
consider these factors:

a) a new frame may have the same problem, especially if it is the same or
similar model from the same manufacturer
b) steel frames, such as yours, fail in graceful rather than catastrophic
modes in the main; and if you check every now and then you will see any
other before they are an immediate danger.

Paul - censored said:

I get the impression from the picture that this wasn't a sudden
fracture, there appears to be rust down part of the crack, did you get
any warning this was happening? If it was a steady deterioration and

Not that I noticed, no. That doesn't mean there wasn't any warning
that I just failed to notice, though.

Matthew

--
Rapun.sel - outermost outpost of the Pick Empire
http://www.pick.ucam.org

Matthew Vernon said:

My trusty Raleigh Royale has broken - the droptube has sheared
through (see bottom of post for picture).

If you're the original owner, you may find that it's still under warranty.
Although Raleigh no longer make an equivalent frame, they may pay for the
repair.

Quoted message said:

If I wanted a new frame like my current Reynolds 708 (no longer
made), what would I go for, and how much would that cost?

Those were really quite nice frames (I had a lovely 708 Randonneur that, in
a moment of folly, I gave to my father).

Something like a Mercian King of Mercia Tour wouldn't be an unfair
comparison:

http://www.merciancycles.co.uk/frame_king_mercia.asp

James Thomson

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

"Paul - [censored]" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Matthew Vernon came up with the following;:

Quoted message said:

Is a repair likely to be a good solution, or does the fact that one
bit of the frame's failed mean the rest may give up in short order?

That's the bit that'd worry me, especially in the areas that took the

strain

Quoted message said:

when the down tube fractured. A decent frame specialist would advise on
this likelihood though.

I get the impression from the picture that this wasn't a sudden fracture,
there appears to be rust down part of the crack, did you get any warning
this was happening? If it was a steady deterioration and you kept riding,
I'd have to think about the extra loads and flexing that the weakness
created in the rest of the frame. I'm not sure I could absolutely trust

it

Quoted message said:

again.

[ note r.b.t. added to newsgroup header ]

This is a classic heat-affected-zone fracture.

Er, no.
I wouldn't have thought a brazed frame would have much in the way of
heat affected zones. HAZ usually refers to a welded joint.

It looks like it started at the stress raiser on the underside of the
tube, where the lug meets the tube.

[snip]

--
Mike

in message <[email hidden]>, Peter Clinch

(') said:

Matthew Vernon said:

My trusty Raleigh Royale has broken - the droptube has sheared
through (see bottom of post for picture). As I understand it, I have
three options:

i) buy new bike
ii) buy new frame
iii) get frame repaired

First thing to do is try iv), get in touch with Raleigh and ask them
if
they'll replace it. I had a weld go on my old EBC Country after 7
years. It had a 2 year frame warranty. EBC replaced the frame FOC
and also transferred all the components onto the new frame FOC, and
included
a new headset FOC.

This is Raleigh we're talking about. They no longer _make_ any frames,
and you wouldn't want to ride a bike with any frame they now _sell_.
I'd be highly surprised if they still employ anyone who can even braze.

If you like it, get it repaired. Lugged and brazed frames are
repairable, after all.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other
;; languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and riffle their
;; pockets for new vocabulary -- James D. Nicoll

in message <[email hidden]>, jtaylor

(') said:

"Paul - [censored]" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Matthew Vernon came up with the following;:

Quoted message said:

Is a repair likely to be a good solution, or does the fact that one
bit of the frame's failed mean the rest may give up in short order?

That's the bit that'd worry me, especially in the areas that took the

strain

Quoted message said:

when the down tube fractured. A decent frame specialist would advise
on this likelihood though.

[ note r.b.t. added to newsgroup header ]

This is a classic heat-affected-zone fracture.

Good frame building technique can reduce the likelyhood of this
happening again, in the joints that are repaired - but other original
joints may well
have a greater than acceptable chance of the same fracture. You
should consider these factors:

a) a new frame may have the same problem, especially if it is the same
or similar model from the same manufacturer

It won't be, those frames haven't been made for at least fifteen years
and Raleigh no longer make any frames.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Paul - censored said:

I get the impression from the picture that this wasn't a sudden fracture,
there appears to be rust down part of the crack, did you get any warning
this was happening?

If you had seen the crack early enough, you could have stopped it
spreading by drilling a hole at each end. That could have bought you
many more (insert unit of time)s use.

Al C-F came up with the following;:

Quoted message said:

Paul - censored said:

I get the impression from the picture that this wasn't a sudden fracture,
there appears to be rust down part of the crack, did you get any warning
this was happening?

If you had seen the crack early enough, you could have stopped it
spreading by drilling a hole at each end. That could have bought you
many more (insert unit of time)s use.

It wasn't, and still isn't, my crack to be inspecting or drilling .. 😉

--
Paul ...
(8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!
For Sale on Ebay
5771988658

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

those frames haven't been made for at least fifteen years

[snip]

Those frames were still made in 2000, prior to the closure of Raleigh
Special Products. Mine, bought in 2000, was built in '98 or '99.

James Thomson

Matthew Vernon said:

Hello,

My trusty Raleigh Royale has broken - the droptube has sheared through
(see bottom of post for picture).

I had one of the tubes of my old Raleigh Royale (reynolds 531) frame
break (seat tube, just above the bottom bracket, possibly due to
excessively heavy pedalling on hills using relatively high gears; it was
a traditional 10 speed set up). It was repaired (i.e. replaced and
resprayed) and that seems to me the right choice. It's unlikely the rest
of the frame has suffered the same damage from the same fatigue stresses.

The position of your frame failure seems curious; as though you often
ride into kerbs or other steep obstructions.
--
Joe * If I cannot be free I'll be cheap

Quoted message said:

I'd be highly surprised if they still employ anyone who can even

braze.

I am told that Edison cycles in Clowne is a place where the frame
builder learnt his trade at Raleigh when they were good.They have a
good name for steel frames round here.

TerryJ

"mb" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This is a classic heat-affected-zone fracture.

Er, no.
I wouldn't have thought a brazed frame would have much in the way of
heat affected zones. HAZ usually refers to a welded joint.

Think again.

Brazing is hot enough (850 centigrade or more) to anneal steel. There _is_
a heat-affected-zone.

Some (the most common) methods of brazing generate a _larger_ HAZ than some
forms of welding.

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

"mb" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This is a classic heat-affected-zone fracture.

Er, no.
I wouldn't have thought a brazed frame would have much in the way of
heat affected zones. HAZ usually refers to a welded joint.

Think again.

Brazing is hot enough (850 centigrade or more) to anneal steel. There _is_
a heat-affected-zone.

What on earth is your definition of "anneal"?
Yes, there is a heat affected zone of sorts, but not one which has
significant changes in grain structure. Not enough to cause "classic
heat affected zone cracking".

Quoted message said:

Some (the most common) methods of brazing generate a _larger_ HAZ than some
forms of welding.

You don't know what a heat affected zone is, do you?

--
Mike

"mb" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

"mb" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

>
> This is a classic heat-affected-zone fracture.
>

Er, no.
I wouldn't have thought a brazed frame would have much in the way of
heat affected zones. HAZ usually refers to a welded joint.

Think again.

Brazing is hot enough (850 centigrade or more) to anneal steel. There

_is_

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a heat-affected-zone.

What on earth is your definition of "anneal"?

50 degrees above the Austentic temperature. For the range of carbon steel
commonly used in bicycle manufacture, that's around 800 centigrade - and the
850 I quoted above is on the low range for brazing temps.

Quoted message said:

Yes, there is a heat affected zone of sorts, but not one which has
significant changes in grain structure. Not enough to cause "classic
heat affected zone cracking".

Quoted message said:

Some (the most common) methods of brazing generate a _larger_ HAZ than

some

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

forms of welding.

You don't know what a heat affected zone is, do you?

Think again (again...)

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

"mb" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

8<

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What on earth is your definition of "anneal"?

50 degrees above the Austentic temperature.

"Austentic"?
Austenite? Austenitic? What has this to do with heat affected zone
cracking?

Annealing = heating then cooling slowly.
This would improve the mechanical properties of the steel and help
prevent HAZ cracking.

Quoted message said:

For the range of carbon steel
commonly used in bicycle manufacture, that's around 800 centigrade - and the
850 I quoted above is on the low range for brazing temps.

Quoted message said:

Yes, there is a heat affected zone of sorts, but not one which has
significant changes in grain structure. Not enough to cause "classic
heat affected zone cracking".

Quoted message said:

Some (the most common) methods of brazing generate a _larger_ HAZ than
some forms of welding.

You don't know what a heat affected zone is, do you?

Think again (again...)

Whatever you think it is, you're not going to get "classic heat affected
zone" cracking.
And that sheared frame wasn't caused by it.

--
Mike

in message <[email hidden]>, mb

(') said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

"mb" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

You don't know what a heat affected zone is, do you?

Think again (again...)

Whatever you think it is, you're not going to get "classic heat
affected zone" cracking.
And that sheared frame wasn't caused by it.

Guys, heat and light, please. I don't know which of you is right but
just saying 'tis/'tisn't doesn't get anywhere and doesn't inform those
of us who don't understand about these things at all. If you're going
to carry on this sort of argument on a public forum please can you
explain in clear terms why (each of) you think what you do.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; killing [afghan|iraqi] civilians is not 'justice'

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, mb

(') said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

"mb" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> You don't know what a heat affected zone is, do you?

Think again (again...)

Whatever you think it is, you're not going to get "classic heat
affected zone" cracking.
And that sheared frame wasn't caused by it.

Guys, heat and light, please. I don't know which of you is right but
just saying 'tis/'tisn't doesn't get anywhere and doesn't inform those
of us who don't understand about these things at all. If you're going
to carry on this sort of argument on a public forum please can you
explain in clear terms why (each of) you think what you do.

It's a bit irritating to try and argue with a guy who can only say
"think again (again)", etc. It makes him look like a fool.

Heat affected zone (HAZ) cracking only occurs with fusion welding
processes and can be caused by;
1. Hydrogen. Hydrogen comes from the "consumable", the filler material
and/or it's flux. The hydrogen doesn't form any compounds in the weld
and sits there all by itself and can cause cracking by escaping from the
HAZ.
Prevented by using low hydrogen electrodes and/or use of preheat before
welding.
2. Excessive hardness in the HAZ. Usually only with high carbon steels,
again prevented by using low hydrogen electrodes and preheat. Controlled
cooling will also help (cover with heatproof blanket, bury in sand,
etc).

A crack in a brazed joint would probably be caused by;
1. Fatigue. Probably starting at some sort of stress raiser, like the
change in section where the lug meets the tube, as I stated a long time
ago.
2. Base metal erosion. Caused by the filler forming an alloy with the
base metal and dissolving the base metal.

TWI (The Welding Institute) don't mention any HAZ cracking when talking
about likely defects in brazing. I wonder why...

--
Mike