For the Lance Believers

Ewoud Dronkert said:

Musashi said:

NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 17:48:16 -0600
Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 06:52:42 -0500

Please check your computer time and/or timezone.

Hmmm, that's weird.

I just updated my motherboard, chip and ram from a P3 to an AMD
Sempron 3100+. I wonder if the different chip is making it run
differently.

Or is it that one number is when I posted and the other is when it was
available on usenet.

Anyway, I've adjusted the time.

Thanks,
Musashi

Antoine Vayer gives weight to the idea that force of will does not enter
into the equation. "The influence of psychological resources is a smoke
screen of the media," he relates. "By definition, all athletes of this high
level are warriors. It is not a mind set which leads to the production of
watts. Someone who breathes five times a minute vs. someone who breathes
eleven times a minute is quantifiable. Doping is quantifiable. Doping cuts
in half the frequency of breathing. When they say, according to the slang,
'he breathes through his ears,' it means he rides with his mouth shut. When
they never appear to be in pain, that also adds up. Compare the climbing
of Fignon's era to that of the era of EPO. Even the facial expressions are
different, the breathing rhythm, every gesture. Not a single rider in the
80s surpassed an out put of 400 watts."

Lance Armstrong knows what Antoine Vayer is talking about. In an interview
given the 3 of February 2004 for the Canadian site Pez Cycling News, the
rider demonstrated his interest in these parameters. Questioned about his
view of the most important parameters, he said "the watts developed over a
given period of time. Wattage gives a much better indication of effort in
comparison to the speed recorded, which is subject to climatic conditions,
the temperature, the wind, the humidity, the condition of the pavement.of
many things.in 1999, I produced an effort of 495 watts over a period of
thirty minutes," he confirmed, without elaborating.

Developing these ideas further, Antoine Vayer has provided some concrete
examples, Knowing the physiological facts of Lance Armstrong (1.77m, 71 kg,
(his weight during the Tour de France,) combined with the results recorded
by the SRM, it is possible to measure the power output of the rider. "Take
the climb of Alpe D'Huez, a climb of 13.8 KM at an average inclination of
8.11%. Take into account the parameters already indicated with the race
conditions that sort them selves out into four categories:

1. The solitary victories from attacks which began
at the foot of the climb (Armstrong in 2001, Marco Pantani in 1994, Lucho
Herrera in 1987.)

2. The solitary attacks which began toward the
summit.

3. The victories which emanated from groups which
escaped before they arrived at the Alpe D'Huez.

4. Those that were acquired as the result of a
sprint from a little group. This example took place in the years before EPO,
or in the first years of EPO.

According to him, the "extraordinary" are the riders who developed wattage
in excess of 450 watts, with attacks at the bottom of the mountain. That
would be the case with Marco Pantani, who realized a record time of 37
minutes 15 seconds after having toiled through an Alpine stage. Even
without a bold attack in its first switch backs, Alpe D'Huez requires, in a
climb of 41 minutes 20 seconds @ 20 km/hour, a development of 400 watts fpr
a rider of 70 kg. David Moncoutie on a good day could get there. The record
to beat is 36 minutes 50 seconds, established by Marco Pantani in 1995, at
an average of 22.48 km/hr, having developed an average of 461 watts after
having crossed the Madeleine and Croix de Fer passes. Lance Armstrong lays
claim to the fifth best time (the three best were achieved by Pantani, the
fourth by Ullrich) in 2001 in 38 minutes 5 seconds, at 21.74 kh/hr. for an
averagee of 442 watts, after having crossed the Madeleine and Glandon
passes."

To be more complete, Antoine Vayer has given details on four of Armstrong's
exploits in the Tour de France.

1) Metz 1999: 400m run at the limit..125 times

On the 11th of July, Lance Armstrong recorded a time trial which blew apart
the

Tour. The American completed the 8th stage, an individual time trial of 56.5
km, at an average speed of 49.416 km/hour. He relegated the Swiss rider
Alex Zulle to a time of 58 seconds slower, and the French rider Christophie
Moreau, to a third place 2 minutes and 5 seconds slower. Armstrong thus
received the yellow jersey which he was never to relinquish.

"In this victory of Lance Armstrong, one parameter realized was
truly shocking,"

explains Antoine Vayer: "The VO2 max of the American, otherwise known as the
blood's oxygen consumption. As always, our foundation is the known physical
characteristics of the rider- 1.77m, 71 kg in weight, bicycle weight of 8
kg, air resistance, the route's profile etc. That day, Lance Armstrong was
given a time of 1 hour 8 minute and 36 seconds. In order to achieve that
time, he would have needed a V02 max of 89-90. I have worked with the
physical parameters given by half of the members of the Festina team in
their great era, that of EPO to be precise. EPO, more than any other oxygen
transporter in the blood, reduced the importance of other physiological
characteristics that would have been important to a rider. And Lance
Armstrong did even better than that, for during the eighth stage, he had to
maintain an average power output of 450 watts. If we consider an index of
endurance corresponding to that of the best athletes in the world, these 450
watts, which he maintained for one hour, corresponds to a VO2 max of 89, the
standard being a sprinter who is at 100% of his maximum over a distance of
100m. In the discipline of track and field, if he had been a quarter miler,
he would have been able to run 125 quarters at practically the same level as
he ran the first. To be always at your maximum, without suffering, is
unthinkable. His performances are unreal."

In order to draw a comparison, how about other riders?
"According to our studies, few Tour riders were capable of maintaining an
average of 450 watt for more than seven minutes. Lance Armstrong's maximum
power output in the Metz time trial was 520 watts, a number never exceeded.
If we extrapolate our calculations, we show that Miguel Indurain, even at
his zenith, would have been relegated to 2 minutes and 20 seconds that day,
and Jan Ullrich to 2 minutes. Another comparison, on that same Metz course,
assuming that the riders all started at the same time, Bassons would have
been 6 km behind Armstrong at the end, Brochard 5.5 km, Boardman 2.8 km, who
was the hour record holder with a speed of 56.375 km/hour!" During this
time trial, the second of the Tour, Armstrong's output of watts was such
that all he would have done is easily broken Boardman's first hour record!
Armstrong 'plays' with his wattage output. But he did 'worse' in the Tour
of 2000, in the individual time trial which took place just before the end
of the Tour (18th stage, Friboug-Mulhouse, sure 58.5 km,) continues Antoine
Vayer. "He won this race by riding at an average of 54km/hour (53.986
exactly,) covering the distance in one hour and 5 minutes, one second
without looking tired. As reference, he thus rode alone at about the same
average speed as the record time of a team time trial, that of the notorious
Gewiss-Ballan group. (Mayenne-Alencon, 1995, 54.930 km/hour over a stage of
67 km.) This record was established by nine riders relaying each other,
right at the start of the Tour, when the riders were fresh. Is he a God, or
what?"

The Internet Site of the Tour de France related without fanfare
that he it was 'the best average speed ever realized in a Tour de France
time trial longer than 25 km.'

Pages 306-309 More will follow

"Reggie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
<snip>

Is he a God, or

Quoted message said:

what?"

<more snip>

Now all you need is a positive dope test...

-p

"Reggie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

According to him, the "extraordinary" are the riders who developed wattage
in excess of 450 watts, with attacks at the bottom of the mountain. That
would be the case with Marco Pantani, who realized a record time of 37
minutes 15 seconds after having toiled through an Alpine stage. Even
without a bold attack in its first switch backs, Alpe D'Huez requires, in
a climb of 41 minutes 20 seconds @ 20 km/hour, a development of 400 watts
fpr a rider of 70 kg. David Moncoutie on a good day could get there. The
record to beat is 36 minutes 50 seconds, established by Marco Pantani in
1995, at an average of 22.48 km/hr, having developed an average of 461
watts after having crossed the Madeleine and Croix de Fer passes. Lance
Armstrong lays claim to the fifth best time (the three best were achieved
by Pantani, the fourth by Ullrich) in 2001 in 38 minutes 5 seconds, at
21.74 kh/hr. for an averagee of 442 watts, after having crossed the
Madeleine and Glandon passes."

Memory seems to suggest Pantani weighed about 55kg, so I'm not sure those
power numbers are accurate.

Peter

Reggie wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

And Lance Armstrong did even better than that, for during the eighth stage,
he had to maintain an average power output of 450 watts.
If we consider an index of endurance corresponding to that of the best
athletes in the world, these 450 watts, which he maintained for one hour,
corresponds to a VO2 max of 89, the standard being a sprinter who is at 100%
of his maximum over a distance of 100m. In the discipline of track and field,
if he had been a quarter miler, he would have been able to run 125 quarters at
practically the same level as he ran the first. To be always at your maximum,
without suffering, is unthinkable. His performances are unreal."
<snip>

Pippen said:

Is he a God, or what?"
Now all you need is a positive dope test...

To paraphrase Marilyn Manson, god is in the syringe.

Come to think of it, Manson and Clinger on Webcor would have made quite
an impact.

Bob Beeman had rockets in his pants. He did what was not humanly
possible too.

Musashi

Reggie said:

Antoine Vayer gives weight to the idea that force of will does not enter
into the equation. "The influence of psychological resources is a smoke
screen of the media," he relates. "By definition, all athletes of this high
level are warriors. It is not a mind set which leads to the production of
watts. Someone who breathes five times a minute vs. someone who breathes
eleven times a minute is quantifiable. Doping is quantifiable. Doping cuts
in half the frequency of breathing. When they say, according to the slang,
'he breathes through his ears,' it means he rides with his mouth shut. When
they never appear to be in pain, that also adds up. Compare the climbing
of Fignon's era to that of the era of EPO. Even the facial expressions are
different, the breathing rhythm, every gesture. Not a single rider in the
80s surpassed an out put of 400 watts."

Lance Armstrong knows what Antoine Vayer is talking about. In an interview
given the 3 of February 2004 for the Canadian site Pez Cycling News, the
rider demonstrated his interest in these parameters. Questioned about his
view of the most important parameters, he said "the watts developed over a
given period of time. Wattage gives a much better indication of effort in
comparison to the speed recorded, which is subject to climatic conditions,
the temperature, the wind, the humidity, the condition of the pavement.of
many things.in 1999, I produced an effort of 495 watts over a period of
thirty minutes," he confirmed, without elaborating.

Developing these ideas further, Antoine Vayer has provided some concrete
examples, Knowing the physiological facts of Lance Armstrong (1.77m, 71 kg,
(his weight during the Tour de France,) combined with the results recorded
by the SRM, it is possible to measure the power output of the rider. "Take
the climb of Alpe D'Huez, a climb of 13.8 KM at an average inclination of
8.11%. Take into account the parameters already indicated with the race
conditions that sort them selves out into four categories:

1. The solitary victories from attacks which began
at the foot of the climb (Armstrong in 2001, Marco Pantani in 1994, Lucho
Herrera in 1987.)

2. The solitary attacks which began toward the
summit.

3. The victories which emanated from groups which
escaped before they arrived at the Alpe D'Huez.

4. Those that were acquired as the result of a
sprint from a little group. This example took place in the years before EPO,
or in the first years of EPO.

According to him, the "extraordinary" are the riders who developed wattage
in excess of 450 watts, with attacks at the bottom of the mountain. That
would be the case with Marco Pantani, who realized a record time of 37
minutes 15 seconds after having toiled through an Alpine stage. Even
without a bold attack in its first switch backs, Alpe D'Huez requires, in a
climb of 41 minutes 20 seconds @ 20 km/hour, a development of 400 watts fpr
a rider of 70 kg. David Moncoutie on a good day could get there. The record
to beat is 36 minutes 50 seconds, established by Marco Pantani in 1995, at
an average of 22.48 km/hr, having developed an average of 461 watts after
having crossed the Madeleine and Croix de Fer passes. Lance Armstrong lays
claim to the fifth best time (the three best were achieved by Pantani, the
fourth by Ullrich) in 2001 in 38 minutes 5 seconds, at 21.74 kh/hr. for an
averagee of 442 watts, after having crossed the Madeleine and Glandon
passes."

To be more complete, Antoine Vayer has given details on four of Armstrong's
exploits in the Tour de France.

1) Metz 1999: 400m run at the limit..125 times

On the 11th of July, Lance Armstrong recorded a time trial which blew apart
the

Tour. The American completed the 8th stage, an individual time trial of 56.5
km, at an average speed of 49.416 km/hour. He relegated the Swiss rider
Alex Zulle to a time of 58 seconds slower, and the French rider Christophie
Moreau, to a third place 2 minutes and 5 seconds slower. Armstrong thus
received the yellow jersey which he was never to relinquish.

"In this victory of Lance Armstrong, one parameter realized was
truly shocking,"

explains Antoine Vayer: "The VO2 max of the American, otherwise known as the
blood's oxygen consumption. As always, our foundation is the known physical
characteristics of the rider- 1.77m, 71 kg in weight, bicycle weight of 8
kg, air resistance, the route's profile etc. That day, Lance Armstrong was
given a time of 1 hour 8 minute and 36 seconds. In order to achieve that
time, he would have needed a V02 max of 89-90. I have worked with the
physical parameters given by half of the members of the Festina team in
their great era, that of EPO to be precise. EPO, more than any other oxygen
transporter in the blood, reduced the importance of other physiological
characteristics that would have been important to a rider. And Lance
Armstrong did even better than that, for during the eighth stage, he had to
maintain an average power output of 450 watts. If we consider an index of
endurance corresponding to that of the best athletes in the world, these 450
watts, which he maintained for one hour, corresponds to a VO2 max of 89, the
standard being a sprinter who is at 100% of his maximum over a distance of
100m. In the discipline of track and field, if he had been a quarter miler,
he would have been able to run 125 quarters at practically the same level as
he ran the first. To be always at your maximum, without suffering, is
unthinkable. His performances are unreal."

In order to draw a comparison, how about other riders?
"According to our studies, few Tour riders were capable of maintaining an
average of 450 watt for more than seven minutes. Lance Armstrong's maximum
power output in the Metz time trial was 520 watts, a number never exceeded.
If we extrapolate our calculations, we show that Miguel Indurain, even at
his zenith, would have been relegated to 2 minutes and 20 seconds that day,
and Jan Ullrich to 2 minutes. Another comparison, on that same Metz course,
assuming that the riders all started at the same time, Bassons would have
been 6 km behind Armstrong at the end, Brochard 5.5 km, Boardman 2.8 km, who
was the hour record holder with a speed of 56.375 km/hour!" During this
time trial, the second of the Tour, Armstrong's output of watts was such
that all he would have done is easily broken Boardman's first hour record!
Armstrong 'plays' with his wattage output. But he did 'worse' in the Tour
of 2000, in the individual time trial which took place just before the end
of the Tour (18th stage, Friboug-Mulhouse, sure 58.5 km,) continues Antoine
Vayer. "He won this race by riding at an average of 54km/hour (53.986
exactly,) covering the distance in one hour and 5 minutes, one second
without looking tired. As reference, he thus rode alone at about the same
average speed as the record time of a team time trial, that of the notorious
Gewiss-Ballan group. (Mayenne-Alencon, 1995, 54.930 km/hour over a stage of
67 km.) This record was established by nine riders relaying each other,
right at the start of the Tour, when the riders were fresh. Is he a God, or
what?"

The Internet Site of the Tour de France related without fanfare
that he it was 'the best average speed ever realized in a Tour de France
time trial longer than 25 km.'

Pages 306-309 More will follow

Quoted message said:

Now all you need is a positive dope test...

Not in Belgium...

"Pippen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Reggie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
<snip>

Is he a God, or

Quoted message said:

what?"

<more snip>

Now all you need is a positive dope test...

-p

Quoted message said:

Now all you need is a positive dope test...

Or possession. Or a weekend sans lawyer in an Italian police station.
Not that you'd get a confession, but for those who salivated at the
thought of LA having to listen to a rebuke from JB on his P-N
performance, this would be reward enough for the near term. Can I get
an Amen?

"Festering hatred". --TP

Reggie wrote:

But he did 'worse' in the Tour

Quoted message said:

of 2000, in the individual time trial which took place just before

the end

Quoted message said:

of the Tour (18th stage, Friboug-Mulhouse, sure 58.5 km,) continues

Antoine

Quoted message said:

Vayer. "He won this race by riding at an average of 54km/hour (53.986

Quoted message said:

exactly,) covering the distance in one hour and 5 minutes, one second

Quoted message said:

without looking tired. As reference, he thus rode alone at about the

same

Quoted message said:

average speed as the record time of a team time trial, that of the

notorious

Quoted message said:

Gewiss-Ballan group. (Mayenne-Alencon, 1995, 54.930 km/hour over a

stage of

Quoted message said:

67 km.) This record was established by nine riders relaying each

other,

Quoted message said:

right at the start of the Tour, when the riders were fresh. Is he a

God, or

Quoted message said:

what?"

what he leaves out is this :

(http://www.cyclingnews.com/results/2000/jul00/tdfrance00/stages/tdflivecomp19.shtml)

12:31 CET
The first few riders have passed through the second time check at
Ottmarsheim (km 44), with Magnus Backstedt (CA) clocking the fastest at
52.53 (49.92 km/h). It should be a fast day today with 25 km/h
tailwinds pushing the riders to Mulhouse.

this was hours before LA's ride, not some post-hoc explanation.

Donald Munro said:

Reggie wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

His performances are unreal."
<snip>

Pippen said:

Is he a God, or what?"
Now all you need is a positive dope test...

To paraphrase Marilyn Manson, god is in the syringe.

I would like to change the discussion and talk about shallow lyrics in our
training tunes:

The Dope Show -- Marilyn Manson
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
The drugs they say
Make us feel so hollow
We love in vain
Narcissistic and so shallow
The cops and queers
To swim you have to swallow
Hate today
No love for tomorrow
We're all stars now in the dope show
We're all stars now in the dope show
There's lots of pretty, pretty ones
Who want to get you high
But all the pretty, pretty ones
Will leave you low
And blow your mind
We're all stars now in the dope show
We're all stars now in the dope show
They love you when you're on all the covers
When you're not then they love another
They love you when you're on all the covers
When you're not then they love another
The drugs they say
Are made in California
We love your face
We'd really like to sell you
The cops and queers
Make good - looking models
I hate today
Who will I wake up with tomorrow?
There's lots of pretty, pretty ones
Who want to get you high
But all the pretty, pretty ones
Will leave you low
And blow your mind
They love you when you're on all the covers
When you're not then they love another
They love you when you're on all the covers
When you're not then they love another
There's lots of pretty, pretty ones
Who want to get you high
But all the pretty, pretty ones
Will leave you low
And blow your mind
They'll blow your mind
We're all stars now in the dope show
We're all stars now in the dope show

Reggie said:

Developing these ideas further, Antoine Vayer has provided some concrete
examples, Knowing the physiological facts of Lance Armstrong (1.77m, 71
kg, (his weight during the Tour de France,) combined with the results
recorded by the SRM, it is possible to measure the power output of the
rider.

That's pretty puzzling. If you have the SRM, you already know the power
output. If you don't have the power output, you need other data in
addition to speed and "physiological facts:" you need course profile, wind
speed and direction, and CdA at different yaw angles. The SRM doesn't
record any of these.

Reggie said:

in half the frequency of breathing. When they say, according to the slang,
'he breathes through his ears,' it means he rides with his mouth shut. When

UK laddish definition:
Perfect woman: 3 feet tall, flat head, breathes through ears.

Here is a statistic for you. I have been cycling seriously for
precisely two years and on a good day I can hold about 330watts for 30
minutes (and I haven't yet begun trying to peak). I don't think it is
impossible to imagine Lance Armstrong who has been riding
competitively for most of his adult, could push 50% more than I can. In
fact the surprising thing would be if he couldn't

Charles said:

"bobo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Here is a statistic for you. I have been cycling seriously for
precisely two years and on a good day I can hold about 330watts for 30
minutes (and I haven't yet begun trying to peak). I don't think it is
impossible to imagine Lance Armstrong who has been riding
competitively for most of his adult, could push 50% more than I can. In
fact the surprising thing would be if he couldn't

There's a significant difference between holding 320 watts for a half hour
and doing 320 watts for an hour. If you were to do a 25 mile flat time trial
with no wind, and you weighed 150lbs and rode a bicycle weighing 17 lbs,
with tyres having a rolling resistance factor of .004, using aero bars with
a frontal area of approx. .26 square meters, with an air temperature of
21.1C., you could be expected to do the course in 50 minutes with an average
watt expenditure of 400 watts. Assuming 307 watts, your time would be 55
minutes for the 25 miles.

Assuming the same flat course and other parameters, a time trial of 35 miles
done in 01:07:00 (similar to Armstrong's time at Metz), would require an
average wattage output of approx. 450 watts as Vayer correctly notes. If it
is true that very few tdf racers and sustain 450 watts for more than 7
minutes, and that such an output of 450 watts average for over an hour would
require a VO max on the order of 89, then it is difficult to sustain the
idea of an elite athlete with a VO max of 82 or 83 doing this kind of
performance, including a maximum output of 520 watts without preparation, as
the French would say. .

or a fierce tailwind.

Charles said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If it is true that [...] such an output of 450
watts average for over an hour would require a VO max on the order of
89, then it is difficult to sustain the idea of an elite athlete with
a VO max of 82 or 83 doing this kind of performance,

http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/rbr/coyle.png

Robert Chung said:

http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/rbr/coyle.png

I especially like the 40km TT time - VO2max correlation. But the VO2LT -
VO2max graph is very interesting too.

--
Firefox Web Browser - Rediscover the web - http://getffox.com/
Thunderbird E-mail and Newsgroups - http://gettbird.com/

"Ewoud Dronkert" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de
:
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Robert Chung said:

http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/rbr/coyle.png

I especially like the 40km TT time - VO2max correlation. But the VO2LT -
VO2max graph is very interesting too.

--
Firefox Web Browser - Rediscover the web - http://getffox.com/
Thunderbird E-mail and Newsgroups - http://gettbird.com/

Time for me to unsubscribe - I printed it and connected interesting patterns
before coloring in a festive springtime optimism.
--
Bonne route (that's what it was, right?),

Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR

Musashi said:

NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 17:48:16 -0600
Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 06:52:42 -0500

Please check your computer time and/or timezone.

--
Firefox Web Browser - Rediscover the web - http://getffox.com/
Thunderbird E-mail and Newsgroups - http://gettbird.com/

Donald Munro said:

Ewoud Dronkert said:

Quoted message said:

Please check your computer time and/or timezone.

Musashi said:

I just updated my motherboard, chip and ram from a P3 to an AMD
Sempron 3100+. I wonder if the different chip is making it run
differently.

I use my AMD for time travel and frying my panache (actually my new NVidia
graphics card is even better for panache frying).

I hook mine up to the trainer and load up on EPO so I can maintain the
425 watts need to run the pc. Usually for 2 or 3 h ours. Sometimes I
think it unconciousness rather than time travel, but MAN what a trip.