For Lance

thehick said:

"Another feat to dis"

Well, let's face it. This is a feat.

Lance had a point. There is a gamut of experiences
that come sort of under the term "running". The most
obvious is flat road races. Then roads with hills. Then
roads with predominantly up or down or a
combination. Then temperature and (I hate to
add this one) body weight can come into it.

Moving along, trails and their huge range
of variation can be added. Somewhere along
the way, the run becomes a feat or hiking or
a stroll in the park. That point of differentiation
varies from person to person. But, I'll hazard
a guess, NO-ONE would consider a mountain
ascent with ice-picks and ice-shoes running.

Judging from this (his gear), ice axes and crampons don't seem to feature.

http://www.teamkilimanjaro.com/simonkit.jpg

Okay he may not have run the whole way I've done plenty of races when
continuous running is impossible.

Tim

Tim Downie said:

thehick said:

"Another feat to dis"

Well, let's face it. This is a feat.

Lance had a point. There is a gamut of experiences
that come sort of under the term "running". The most
obvious is flat road races. Then roads with hills. Then
roads with predominantly up or down or a
combination. Then temperature and (I hate to
add this one) body weight can come into it.

Moving along, trails and their huge range
of variation can be added. Somewhere along
the way, the run becomes a feat or hiking or
a stroll in the park. That point of differentiation
varies from person to person. But, I'll hazard
a guess, NO-ONE would consider a mountain
ascent with ice-picks and ice-shoes running.

Judging from this (his gear), ice axes and crampons don't seem to feature.

http://www.teamkilimanjaro.com/simonkit.jpg

Okay he may not have run the whole way I've done plenty of races when
continuous running is impossible.

Thanks for posting that link, Tim. They've also got plots / data from
the several gadgets he was using, which show speed, hr, etc. Also a
description of normal route up that they take visitors. This doesn't
imply the route is trivial, but that one probably doesn't need to be a
super experienced, skilled climber to do it = running may be possible.
It looks like there's one glacier that they cross ("with alpine trail" =
doesn't sound crevasse riddled like many of ours are) and some rock
scrambling later. But it definitely sounds like part of it was runnable
and actually run.

I also spoke prematurely in my other post about having to carry gear. It
was less than 7 hrs, so it's not like he was carrying gear for a
multi-day trek like was going through my mind at the time. (Visions of
current 350/1100 mi winter races were dancing through my head at the time.)

But there are more difficult climbing routes, and that may be what Tom
was thinking of.

Dot

--
"Remorse - a good trail always makes you feel sorry that it is over no
matter how tired you are" - Matt Carpenter

"Tim Downie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
....

Quoted message said:

Judging from this (his gear), ice axes and crampons don't seem to feature.

http://www.teamkilimanjaro.com/simonkit.jpg

Okay he may not have run the whole way I've done plenty of races when
continuous running is impossible.

Tim

Running shoes - a polar s625x AND a axn700, prerequisite bacalava hat gloves
etc. This was no ice climbing expedition! Elsewhere on the site in FAQ, it
says:

"Do I need any experience?

-No, none whatever. An ascent of Kili is more a trek than a climb. There is
no ice-climbing involved, nor are there any technical manoeuvres on the
route".

-Tony

Doug Freese said:

For those that do not live at elevation some time is necessary to get
acclimated. For some it's a few days and for others it's a few weeks.
They may ne be on this newsgroup but they are runners of various
abilities.

And remember that Simon is a veteran ultra runner with a number of
Western States 100 mile top 20 finishes (among many others) who also
half the year guides on Kilimanjaro so would be more than acclimated.

--
- The Trailrunner

Anti-Spam Alert: If you wish to reply, cut the *BS*

Trails of the Diablo Valley
*Running - Hiking - Nature*
http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/trails/6016/

Doug Freese said:

"Tom Phillips" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Yeah well Kilimanjaro has a generally gradual
trail for much of the lower ascent, but it is,
in fact, a serious mountain (one of 7 "continental"
highest) and cannot be "run." If you doubt that,
try running at 17,000 feet and above (for most
readers of this nsg,

For 17K+ yes.

Quoted message said:

make tnat 10,000 ft and
above...) Simply not enough O2 to sustain such
physical anaerobic activity.

Careful now, there are two ultra races that have major pieces of the 100
miles way over 10K. Leadville is run in 9-12K feet but only has 15K of
up and down and gives you 30 hours to finish. Hardrock is run in 9-14K
high with a dip to 7,600 but has 33K of up and down with a 60 hour cut
off. Yes they hike the ups but they run the levels and downs.

For those that do not live at elevation some time is necessary to get
acclimated. For some it's a few days and for others it's a few weeks.
They may ne be on this newsgroup but they are runners of various
abilities.

Well, I generalized by saying "most" people,
since most people aren't acclimated to even
5000 feet. Some people get altitude sickness
at only 8-9000 feet. As you say it depends on
individual physiology. But AMS generally hits
the majority of people (low elevation dwellers)
at about 8000 feet/2500 meters, so 10,000 feet
is pretty high for them. Acclimation to 10,000
feet and higher (if one is not already acclimated
to moderately high elevations of 5-8000 feet)
will take weeks, a minimum of 3 weeks and usually
more for the average person. Physical conditioning
won't lessen this.

On Kilimanjaro you have sustained elevations above
14,000 feet, and at 18,000 feet the human body
ceases to be able to compensate for the higher
(hypobaric) environment. I suppose one could run
for a short distance but most of the time you're
going to be hiking at an increasingly slower pace.
For someone not acclimated to even 5000 feet,
10-12,000 feet can seem like being at 18,000 feet.

thehick said:

"ice-picks and ice-shoes"???

You know nothing, as there is no such
thing in mountaineering OR mountain
running as "ice-picks/ice-shoes..."

Nothing? But I think everyone knew what I meant. Nothing
is a little extreme. That's all.
...thehick

I meant nothing about ice shoes et al only,
simply because I've never heard of those 🙂
And when reading stuff about Lance I tend to
react a little more critically...

But you're right, I was a little harsh and you're
also right no one could consider that running

Dot said:

Tim Downie said:

thehick said:

"Another feat to dis"

Well, let's face it. This is a feat.

Lance had a point. There is a gamut of experiences
that come sort of under the term "running". The most
obvious is flat road races. Then roads with hills. Then
roads with predominantly up or down or a
combination. Then temperature and (I hate to
add this one) body weight can come into it.

Moving along, trails and their huge range
of variation can be added. Somewhere along
the way, the run becomes a feat or hiking or
a stroll in the park. That point of differentiation
varies from person to person. But, I'll hazard
a guess, NO-ONE would consider a mountain
ascent with ice-picks and ice-shoes running.

Judging from this (his gear), ice axes and crampons don't seem to feature.

http://www.teamkilimanjaro.com/simonkit.jpg

Okay he may not have run the whole way I've done plenty of races when
continuous running is impossible.

Thanks for posting that link, Tim. They've also got plots / data from
the several gadgets he was using, which show speed, hr, etc. Also a
description of normal route up that they take visitors. This doesn't
imply the route is trivial, but that one probably doesn't need to be a
super experienced, skilled climber to do it = running may be possible.
It looks like there's one glacier that they cross ("with alpine trail" =
doesn't sound crevasse riddled like many of ours are) and some rock
scrambling later. But it definitely sounds like part of it was runnable
and actually run.

I also spoke prematurely in my other post about having to carry gear. It
was less than 7 hrs, so it's not like he was carrying gear for a
multi-day trek like was going through my mind at the time. (Visions of
current 350/1100 mi winter races were dancing through my head at the time.)

But there are more difficult climbing routes, and that may be what Tom
was thinking of.

Well, no, I was thinking of the elevation.
I may have misread the posts thinking that
he did a more technical route requiring axe
and crampons. It was late 🙂 The most traveled
route isn't really hard (climb/hike wise) but
it's challenging due to elevation.

I think I said running the lower parts of
the trail is doable, but above about 17000
feet (maybe 15-16000 feet depending on the
person) you're not going to have enough O2
to sustain running. I.e., you'll simply have
to slow down.

* ~ [censored] ~ !

Dot said:

Tom Phillips said:

Dot said:

thehick wrote:

>But, I'll hazard
>a guess, NO-ONE would consider a mountain
>ascent with ice-picks and ice-shoes running.

While many may not, many trail runners up here use some type of traction
device, including crampons, and a few (not me) use ice axes for safety.
It's surprising what's runnable with the right gear. Ice axes, or some
snowshoe poles may have a pick-like device on them, may be used mostly
for self arrests.

For self arest an ice axe yes, a snowshoe pole
no. Using any sort of pole/spike will just flip
one over and tumble to one's death...

Some snowshoe poles have heads on them (sometimes accessory) like ice
axes. No, it wouldn't be used like a pole. This isn't what I had in mind
but gives an idea: http://tinyurl.com/rg7vv. Obviously a pole wouldn't
be as substantial as a real ice axe, but I can see their usefulness for
some situations.

Well I'm not familiar with these but seems I
didn't get what you were saying or didn't read
carefully enough. Yes, you need a pick for self
arrest and could self arrest with this.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In summer, you might just fall on a slope, but in
winter there's a good likelihood of sliding uncontrollably without some
means of stopping - like an ice axe. I don't do that type of running,
but I know people that do. Like any trail running, there's a mix of
running and walking, depending on conditions.

Mostly walking, since running in conditions
requiring an ice axe pretty much excludes
running. If you need an axe, those conditions
preclude both running or trail running shoes.

Most people that run outdoors this winter (actually, most recent
winters) up here have some traction device on - ranging from screw shoes
to crampons (at least I'm assuming some one up here probably runs in
Kahtoolas or something like that - I've seen just about every other
device out there). I've run without devices of some sort (ice joggers,
stabilicers, snowshoes with cleats) maybe a few times since December?

On the epic runs the Anchorage runners go on, there may be icy sections
to get between 2 sections of a run (or maybe the entire route is ice),
so they take ice axes. From the March 2 description: "The middle section
third of this route involves technical scrambling on rocks and steep,
icy slopes. If you plan on doing the full route, traction devices are
strongly advised. For example, I'll be packing running crampons and an
ice ax."

Well, steeper slopes was what I had in
mind, that is, ascending an icy or hard
snow slope, since you mentioned falling
on a slope. If it's flat or a trail I still
wouldn't run in crampons (not full 8-10 point
crampons, anyway.) Too clumsy and danergous
and can easily catch a pant leg and trip or
slice a shin or ankle. I know because I've done
just that 🙂

Cleats would be better but since my icy running
is limited to icy streets (or snowpacked trail)
I'm not very familiar with the alternatives you
are. But we may be talking about different types
or styles of crampons. There are crampon-like
insteps (2-4 small points between the heal and
ball of the foot) that I might use on sturdy
trail shoes.

Quoted message said:

And Sunday, I sure felt like I wished I had an ice axe - or claws on my
hands.

Maybe a couple of smaller ice tools, the kind
used for verticle ice?

Quoted message said:

The snowshoe cleats couldn't hold in the ice, although I was
running to that point. On various sections of the trail, I did one side
plant, one face plant (literally face in snow on top of ice), and one
rear plant. yes, I know if I'd had my weight where it should've been, I
might not have done the face (uphill) or rear plant (downhill). I
finally did butt slide down the last couple hills. The other option was
bushwhacking off trail, which isn't good trail etiquette.

No, the exposure on many of these runs isn't life threatening, but it's
nice to have something to control, say, a 50-ft slide.

Well I am trying to picture this, but it
sounds more like hiking/climbing. Either
that or a slip 'n slide 😉

Quoted message said:

Yea, in my case, I'd be more likely to hurt myself on the ice axe than a
fall 😉

I'd say running with an axe is problematic, if
not dangerous. I've seen people cut up pretty
bad taking falls with an axe. Even if self
arrest techniques are studiously practiced,
if the ice is too "fast" (i.e., slippery hard
with a quick fall) there isn't time to react.
Running and falling would make it more difficult
it seems to me. More prone to just dice and slice
oneself than be able to get into an arrest position.
Going slow and cautious over snow/ice with the
axe used as an anchor is what I would always do,
but then I'm not an AKer... Course on your downhill
glissades (butt slides) is where an axe comes in
pretty handy.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The original post (the fastest solo unsupported
ascent and descent of Kilimanjaro) can not be
considered a run even minus ice axe conditions,
since running at elevations above 15,000/17,000
feet is way beyond an anaerobic state.

What about running the lower elevations and hiking the higher? I didn't
read the article to see how it was done.

I must have missed the link so didn't read it
either. I didn't mean to suggest the trail itself
wasn't runnable, but the high elevations, since you
simply have to slow down to get enough O2 to sustain
aerobic activity. At 17000 and higher its pretty much
anaerobic even when hiking except for supermen. I'd
consider the actual ascent of Kilimanjaro to be the
higher sections. I know lots of long trails around
here people run, but when they get to either certain
elevations or near the summit by that time they're
hiking.

Dot said:

Dot said:

What about running the lower elevations and hiking the higher? I didn't
read the article to see how it was done.

I just noticed the part about carrying supplies, etc. I suspect some of
those speed climbers hike / climb as fast as some of us run.

No doubt but elevation and terrain slows
everyone down eventually...

Tom Phillips said:

Dot wrote:

Well, steeper slopes was what I had in
mind, that is, ascending an icy or hard
snow slope, since you mentioned falling
on a slope.

That's originally what I was thinking of for ice axes also, then I
happened to be above treeline after one of the first snows and realized
while there's 0 chance of sliding off the mountain in the summer, with
the right snow conditions and a little slip, an ice axe or other
self-arrest device might be useful since there's nothing to grab.

If it's flat or a trail I still

Quoted message said:

wouldn't run in crampons (not full 8-10 point
crampons, anyway.) Too clumsy and danergous
and can easily catch a pant leg and trip or
slice a shin or ankle. I know because I've done
just that 🙂

Cleats would be better but since my icy running
is limited to icy streets (or snowpacked trail)
I'm not very familiar with the alternatives you
are. But we may be talking about different types
or styles of crampons. There are crampon-like
insteps (2-4 small points between the heal and
ball of the foot) that I might use on sturdy
trail shoes.

These are the most aggressive of anything I've seen. While they
supposedly can be used for running, I've not seen anyone runners use
them. (really pricy also)
http://www.kahtoola.com/Main.aspx

I've used Stabilicer sports with reasonable success under certain
conditions - basically a strap-on screw shoe. That or studded shoes or
attachments are the most popular. Relatively non aggressive relative to
full blow crampons.
http://www.32north.com/prod_cover.htm

I've thought about using my snowshoe cleats as crampons since they are
removable and can be used as such, although lack rear cleat (it's still
attached to snowshoe).

There's a substantial market for traction devices for those that live in
icy environments. 😉 And the Finns seem to be the most advanced.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And Sunday, I sure felt like I wished I had an ice axe - or claws on my
hands.

Maybe a couple of smaller ice tools, the kind
used for verticle ice?

Yea, something like a big knife.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The snowshoe cleats couldn't hold in the ice, although I was
running to that point. On various sections of the trail, I did one side
plant, one face plant (literally face in snow on top of ice), and one
rear plant. yes, I know if I'd had my weight where it should've been, I
might not have done the face (uphill) or rear plant (downhill). I
finally did butt slide down the last couple hills. The other option was
bushwhacking off trail, which isn't good trail etiquette.

No, the exposure on many of these runs isn't life threatening, but it's
nice to have something to control, say, a 50-ft slide.

Well I am trying to picture this, but it
sounds more like hiking/climbing. Either
that or a slip 'n slide 😉

Actually, it's very much running - up until the cleat doesn't hold 😉
Part of this (the butt slide) is actually specific for a race. Last year
there was still snow in the pass on the race course, and they had a
fixed rope for folks to get down a 40 deg (newspaper said deg, not pct)
snow slope - some skied, others butt slid. (didn't realize this at the
time I decided to do it) Without snow, the trail can be ridden by mtn
bikes so I figured it was not life threatening like many of the mtn runs.

FWIW, the single track that was my goal was in pretty decent condition -
it's the icy ski trails near the trail head that I have to get past to
get to the good trails. I did go to some different trails on Tues - ones
with snow on them and no ice.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yea, in my case, I'd be more likely to hurt myself on the ice axe than a
fall 😉

I'd say running with an axe is problematic, if
not dangerous. I've seen people cut up pretty
bad taking falls with an axe. Even if self
arrest techniques are studiously practiced,
if the ice is too "fast" (i.e., slippery hard
with a quick fall) there isn't time to react.
Running and falling would make it more difficult
it seems to me. More prone to just dice and slice
oneself than be able to get into an arrest position.
Going slow and cautious over snow/ice with the
axe used as an anchor is what I would always do,
but then I'm not an AKer... Course on your downhill
glissades (butt slides) is where an axe comes in
pretty handy.

I've never climbed but did have some introduction, so I know enough to
have a little idea of how dangerous ice axes can be in wrong hands 😉

I go "slow and cautious" when I'm working my may down my street to the
mailbox, which is icier than many trails and just as steep. 😉 When
we've got patchy ice or soft ice at warmer temperatures, the traction
devices do allow you to run fairly safely over a lot of terrain. But the
current batch of ice is the hard stuff and it's not patchy. 🙁

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The original post (the fastest solo unsupported
ascent and descent of Kilimanjaro) can not be
considered a run even minus ice axe conditions,
since running at elevations above 15,000/17,000
feet is way beyond an anaerobic state.

What about running the lower elevations and hiking the higher? I didn't
read the article to see how it was done.

I must have missed the link so didn't read it
either.

I think what happened is thehick posted a reply with a philosophical
bent, and the ice picks and shoes were in that, and apparently had
nothing to do with the actual speed climb in the original post. I went
back to google to see if I had missed some posts sine there seemed to be
a substantial leap there. Then Tim posted a link with picture of gear,
then some of us backtracked to the original web page to find more detail
of the climb.
http://www.teamkilimanjaro.com/

I didn't mean to suggest the trail itself

Quoted message said:

wasn't runnable, but the high elevations, since you
simply have to slow down to get enough O2 to sustain
aerobic activity. At 17000 and higher its pretty much
anaerobic even when hiking except for supermen. I'd
consider the actual ascent of Kilimanjaro to be the
higher sections. I know lots of long trails around
here people run, but when they get to either certain
elevations or near the summit by that time they're
hiking.

Got it.

Dot

--
"Remorse - a good trail always makes you feel sorry that it is over no
matter how tired you are" - Matt Carpenter

Dot said:

Tom Phillips said:

Dot wrote:

Well, steeper slopes was what I had in
mind, that is, ascending an icy or hard
snow slope, since you mentioned falling
on a slope.

That's originally what I was thinking of for ice axes also, then I
happened to be above treeline after one of the first snows and realized
while there's 0 chance of sliding off the mountain in the summer, with
the right snow conditions and a little slip, an ice axe or other
self-arrest device might be useful since there's nothing to grab.

Well, yeah, I ain't gonna disagree 🙂

Quoted message said:

If it's flat or a trail I still

Quoted message said:

wouldn't run in crampons (not full 8-10 point
crampons, anyway.) Too clumsy and danergous
and can easily catch a pant leg and trip or
slice a shin or ankle. I know because I've done
just that 🙂

Cleats would be better but since my icy running
is limited to icy streets (or snowpacked trail)
I'm not very familiar with the alternatives you
are. But we may be talking about different types
or styles of crampons. There are crampon-like
insteps (2-4 small points between the heal and
ball of the foot) that I might use on sturdy
trail shoes.

These are the most aggressive of anything I've seen. While they
supposedly can be used for running, I've not seen anyone runners use
them. (really pricy also)
http://www.kahtoola.com/Main.aspx

I wonder how their flexability holds up
under the pressure of running though. Any
crampon can break under a lot of stress.
But maybe for short periods...

Quoted message said:

I've used Stabilicer sports with reasonable success under certain
conditions - basically a strap-on screw shoe. That or studded shoes or
attachments are the most popular. Relatively non aggressive relative to
full blow crampons.
http://www.32north.com/prod_cover.htm

They look a lot more flexable. Ice isn't
exactly an ideal running surface but in AK
you certainly need something...

Quoted message said:

I've thought about using my snowshoe cleats as crampons since they are
removable and can be used as such, although lack rear cleat (it's still
attached to snowshoe).

There's a substantial market for traction devices for those that live in
icy environments. 😉 And the Finns seem to be the most advanced.

Well, the Norwegians solved that problem
centuries ago by inventing skinny skis 🙂

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And Sunday, I sure felt like I wished I had an ice axe - or claws on my
hands.

Maybe a couple of smaller ice tools, the kind
used for verticle ice?

Yea, something like a big knife.

It depends on the degree of slope. If
you think you need "claws," a couple of
shorter climbing axes would seem appropriate.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The snowshoe cleats couldn't hold in the ice, although I was
running to that point. On various sections of the trail, I did one side
plant, one face plant (literally face in snow on top of ice), and one
rear plant. yes, I know if I'd had my weight where it should've been, I
might not have done the face (uphill) or rear plant (downhill). I
finally did butt slide down the last couple hills. The other option was
bushwhacking off trail, which isn't good trail etiquette.

No, the exposure on many of these runs isn't life threatening, but it's
nice to have something to control, say, a 50-ft slide.

Well I am trying to picture this, but it
sounds more like hiking/climbing. Either
that or a slip 'n slide 😉

Actually, it's very much running - up until the cleat doesn't hold 😉
Part of this (the butt slide) is actually specific for a race. Last year
there was still snow in the pass on the race course, and they had a
fixed rope for folks to get down a 40 deg (newspaper said deg, not pct)
snow slope - some skied, others butt slid. (didn't realize this at the
time I decided to do it) Without snow, the trail can be ridden by mtn
bikes so I figured it was not life threatening like many of the mtn runs.

Ah, but some of those mtn bikers are crazy
enough to sail down a 50 degree slope 😉

Quoted message said:

FWIW, the single track that was my goal was in pretty decent condition -
it's the icy ski trails near the trail head that I have to get past to
get to the good trails. I did go to some different trails on Tues - ones
with snow on them and no ice.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yea, in my case, I'd be more likely to hurt myself on the ice axe than a
fall 😉

I'd say running with an axe is problematic, if
not dangerous. I've seen people cut up pretty
bad taking falls with an axe. Even if self
arrest techniques are studiously practiced,
if the ice is too "fast" (i.e., slippery hard
with a quick fall) there isn't time to react.
Running and falling would make it more difficult
it seems to me. More prone to just dice and slice
oneself than be able to get into an arrest position.
Going slow and cautious over snow/ice with the
axe used as an anchor is what I would always do,
but then I'm not an AKer... Course on your downhill
glissades (butt slides) is where an axe comes in
pretty handy.

I've never climbed but did have some introduction, so I know enough to
have a little idea of how dangerous ice axes can be in wrong hands 😉

I go "slow and cautious" when I'm working my may down my street to the
mailbox, which is icier than many trails and just as steep. 😉 When
we've got patchy ice or soft ice at warmer temperatures, the traction
devices do allow you to run fairly safely over a lot of terrain. But the
current batch of ice is the hard stuff and it's not patchy. 🙁

Well even an ice axe has limitations. If it's
hard impenetrable ice it's going to be pretty
difficult to plant the axe and stop a sliding fall.
Using the axe in comb w/crampons for self belay
is when it becomes climbing and not running.
The fixed rope is a good idea there...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>The original post (the fastest solo unsupported
>ascent and descent of Kilimanjaro) can not be
>considered a run even minus ice axe conditions,
>since running at elevations above 15,000/17,000
>feet is way beyond an anaerobic state.

What about running the lower elevations and hiking the higher? I didn't
read the article to see how it was done.

I must have missed the link so didn't read it
either.

I think what happened is thehick posted a reply with a philosophical
bent, and the ice picks and shoes were in that, and apparently had
nothing to do with the actual speed climb in the original post.

Maybe. I'm confused 🙂

I went

Quoted message said:

back to google to see if I had missed some posts sine there seemed to be
a substantial leap there. Then Tim posted a link with picture of gear,
then some of us backtracked to the original web page to find more detail
of the climb.
http://www.teamkilimanjaro.com/

Thanks. I notice they call it a "speed ascent,"
not a "run." Probably more appropriate and
accurate. He seems to have had a good cause.

The article also mentions the American climbers
who were killed 2 months ago. I knew one of them
and have met his wife and parents. But I hadn't
seen this about determining the cause of the rock
slide, so this is suddenly a lot more interesting
web site.

Quoted message said:

I didn't mean to suggest the trail itself

Quoted message said:

wasn't runnable, but the high elevations, since you
simply have to slow down to get enough O2 to sustain
aerobic activity. At 17000 and higher its pretty much
anaerobic even when hiking except for supermen. I'd
consider the actual ascent of Kilimanjaro to be the
higher sections. I know lots of long trails around
here people run, but when they get to either certain
elevations or near the summit by that time they're
hiking.

Got it.

Dot

--
"Remorse - a good trail always makes you feel sorry that it is over no
matter how tired you are" - Matt Carpenter

Tom Phillips said:

Dot said:

Tom Phillips wrote:

There's a substantial market for traction devices for those that live in
icy environments. 😉 And the Finns seem to be the most advanced.

Well, the Norwegians solved that problem
centuries ago by inventing skinny skis 🙂

On ice? metal edges?

Many of the winter tires (bikes and cars) are from Finland or use some
of their rubbers that maintain flexibility better at colder
temperatures. And they produced the icebug shoes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Without snow, the trail can be ridden by mtn

Quoted message said:

bikes so I figured it was not life threatening like many of the mtn runs.

Ah, but some of those mtn bikers are crazy
enough to sail down a 50 degree slope 😉

yea, but they generally bike it the other direction so they have 1000 ft
up, 3500 ft down, and the 40 deg slope is on the 1000ft side (downhill
for race). It's an artifact of the remaining snow in the pass. People
that did the race the year before said it was fairly easy - but it was
in July in dry summer - no snow and no meltwater.

Quoted message said:

Well even an ice axe has limitations. If it's
hard impenetrable ice it's going to be pretty
difficult to plant the axe and stop a sliding fall.
Using the axe in comb w/crampons for self belay
is when it becomes climbing and not running.
The fixed rope is a good idea there...

My general guidelines are when I feel like it's more of a winter
mountaineering adventure than a run, then it's time to consider other
options, like turning back.

Quoted message said:

I went

Quoted message said:

back to google to see if I had missed some posts sine there seemed to be
a substantial leap there. Then Tim posted a link with picture of gear,
then some of us backtracked to the original web page to find more detail
of the climb.
http://www.teamkilimanjaro.com/

Thanks. I notice they call it a "speed ascent,"
not a "run." Probably more appropriate and
accurate. He seems to have had a good cause.

The article also mentions the American climbers
who were killed 2 months ago. I knew one of them
and have met his wife and parents. But I hadn't
seen this about determining the cause of the rock
slide, so this is suddenly a lot more interesting
web site.

I was wondering if that was your friend when I read that.

Dot

--
"Remorse - a good trail always makes you feel sorry that it is over no
matter how tired you are" - Matt Carpenter