food and running

Laila said:

Hi

I run three times a week, 2x5-6km; 1x +6km/-10km
Since several weeks I didn't feel good and I went to the doctor.

What do you mean by "didn't feel good" ?

Quoted message said:

Conclusion: one of the reasons is that I don't eat enough. It's not
that I don't want to eat (I'm not anorexic), I'm just not that hungry
all the time.

I take it you mean that this is what the doctor said ?

Did you get some tests done ? (for anemia, etc)

Have you been losing weight ?

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

On 12 Dec 2005 07:07:27 -0800, "Laila" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

So, is there anyone who can give me a few tips about what to eat, how
many, when, ...

Just increase your mileage, and your body will crave more food. Or the
other possibility is you have a tapeworm.

Ari
------------
I'm going to die rather sooner than you'd like me too. I tried butt sex from my
neighbours, and became the victim of AIDS. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in full blown (pun intended) AIDS. I now need a boner
transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a boner
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a boner donor:
http://www.IGotAidsFromButSex.org.

Don't get involved with this..............if you tell the poster what
foods to eat, just know that about a day later you're going to have to
tell them when and how to [censored] it out too.

Hi Donovan,

(I didn't feel good)--> I was sad and my body was tired the whole
time...

I went to my doctor and he took some blood. The results were ok. We
talked a lot and eventually he said I have not enough energy to run 3
times a week and work all day and do the household. He asked me how I
ate, how much, ... I told him what I ate and he said it was not enough.

And no, I didn't loose weight. My body shape is better but I'm still on
my same weight as I was before...

That's why I asked for some tips about food and running...

Laïla

ps: sorry for my bad english.

On 14 Dec 2005 06:37:25 -0800, "Laila" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

And no, I didn't loose weight. My body shape is better but I'm still on
my same weight as I was before...

We need jpg's to judge that. The less clothing you have on, the better
we can help you.

"Laila" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

That's why I asked for some tips about food and running...

Focus on eating even sized meals with a mixture of fruits, vegetables,
carbohydrates, and meats at each meal. (If you eat meats - make sure it's
the smallest portion of the bunch). Also begin taking a daily multi-vitamin
supplement pill each day, and drinking at least 1 liter of water or
hydrating fluids per day. Much more or much less is not good. With your
busy schedule, I suspect simply more food in better balance will help a lot.
But it's hard to give recommendations of exactly what amount to eat since
everyone is different.
It can take many weeks for your body to adapt to the new routine - it's
possible that your body was adapted to not eating much food. But be honest
and recognize there are other physiological and psychological possibilities
beyond anorexia and anemia that could be the cause. Regular exercise and
self-improvement is a very powerful thing, and some people have feelings of
guilt. Also be sure you're getting enough sleep - I've found that when
exercising, my need for adequate sleep is more sensitive.

Quoted message said:

Laïla
ps: sorry for my bad english.

Perfectly understandable english so far. But if you're practicing your
English, I suggest you check on the words "loose" and "lose". (Many
english-speakers mess that up too).

Dave

Laila said:

Hi Donovan,

(I didn't feel good)--> I was sad and my body was tired the whole
time...

I went to my doctor and he took some blood. The results were ok. We
talked a lot and eventually he said I have not enough energy to run 3
times a week and work all day and do the household. He asked me how I
ate, how much, ... I told him what I ate and he said it was not enough.

Time to get a new doctor.

Some things to consider:

(1) if you are not losing weight, you are taking in enough calories. Take in
more and you will gain weight. Ultimately, the verdict of the scales is the
true objective metric here. The doctors subjective impression based on your
self-report of what you eat is not.

(2) if the blood test is OK, the next thing to watch for is overtraining. If
you're pushing too hard in workouts or not getting enough rest, that could
be a problem. The solution: run at a slower pace, so that your workouts are
less demanding, and get more sleep.

(3) if you're tired all the time, take a couple of weeks off, then resume
training, but at an easier level -- in addition to slowing down, either run
less frequently, or less distance.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

David Geesaman said:

[...] drinking at least 1 liter of water or hydrating fluids per day. Much
more or much less is not good.

What's your basis for saying >> 1L of water is not good? I drink
considerably more than that daily - am I doing something wrong?
Anything I should be aware of?

On 14 Dec 2005 10:58:52 -0800, "Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

What's your basis for saying >> 1L of water is not good? I drink
considerably more than that daily - am I doing something wrong?
Anything I should be aware of?

One wordo, el stupido: Mexico

Donovan Rebbechi said:

(1) if you are not losing weight, you are taking in enough calories.
Take in more and you will gain weight. Ultimately, the verdict of the
scales is the true objective metric here.

I don't believe it's as simple as that.

I don't dispute conservation of energy, but I also don't believe that
simply adding or reducing 500 calories a day invariably means a pound
of weight gain or loss each week, for everyone, all the time. Take a
subject at weight equilibrium, add 500 calories, and maybe the
subject's metabolism increases to burn x% of them (and I'm thinking of
a very significant x in the high double digits, not some piddly trivial
footnote of an x) rather than add fat storage. Experientially maybe
this becomes increased energy, alertness, body heat.

Likewise for reducing 500 calories: not an automatic pound a week loss.

If you're inclined to discount this line of thinking as, say, the
whining of undisciplined fatties - "I CAN'T lose weight, it's my
muh-TAAAH-buh-LIZ-im" - consider instead someone like this guy:
http://tinyurl.com/2qw6n

And that's before - or in addition to - a complex discussion of what
constitutes those calories, when they're consumed, and how those relate
to exercise, sleep, etc.

Charlie Pendejo said:

David Geesaman said:

[...] drinking at least 1 liter of water or hydrating fluids per day. Much
more or much less is not good.

Quoted message said:

What's your basis for saying >> 1L of water is not good? I drink
considerably more than that daily - am I doing something wrong?
Anything I should be aware of?

I thought the recommendation was 2 liters.
Personally, I drink much more, especially on days that I run.

jobs

Charlie Pendejo said:

David Geesaman said:

[...] drinking at least 1 liter of water or hydrating fluids per day. Much
more or much less is not good.

What's your basis for saying >> 1L of water is not good? I drink
considerably more than that daily - am I doing something wrong?
Anything I should be aware of?

Actually, I was thinking the same thing. I estimate my daily consumption
at ~3 liters of water, plus some coffee and tea.

The often-quoted rule of thumb is 8 glasses of water a day, which is
roughly 2 liters. However, I remember reading an article that said there
really was no research behind that figure.

The Institute of Medicine recommends 3.7 liters of total water from all
beverages for men and 2.7 l. for women:

http://www.iom.edu/report.asp?id=18495

My wife's nutritionist recommended drinking lots of water. Her words:
"Your urine should be clear 2 hours after waking and stay that way all
day". That applied for everyone, not just those wanting to loose weight.
I pretty much follow that.

--
Ylan

"The universe is not required to be in
perfect harmony with human ambition"
~ Carl Sagan

Charlie Pendejo said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

(1) if you are not losing weight, you are taking in enough calories.
Take in more and you will gain weight. Ultimately, the verdict of the
scales is the true objective metric here.

I don't believe it's as simple as that.

In this case it is.

I understand that metabolic rates are a relative variable, but commencing
an exercise program will not reduce those.

Either way, the scales are a much better indicator than an off-the-cuff,
largely *qualitative* self-report (being qualitative in itself makes it pretty
much worthless since *quantities* are what count here) and a subjective
assesment based on such a report.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Donovan said:

Pendejo said:

Donovan said:

(1) if you are not losing weight, you are taking in enough calories.
Take in more and you will gain weight. Ultimately, the verdict of the
scales is the true objective metric here.

I don't believe it's as simple as that.

In this case it is.

I understand that metabolic rates are a relative variable, but commencing
an exercise program will not reduce those.

And what can you cite to back that up - that metabolism won't change in
the face of a rather sudden caloric deficit - or must we take it on
faith?

Charlie Pendejo said:

Donovan said:

Pendejo said:

Donovan wrote:
> (1) if you are not losing weight, you are taking in enough calories.
> Take in more and you will gain weight. Ultimately, the verdict of the
> scales is the true objective metric here.

I don't believe it's as simple as that.

In this case it is.

I understand that metabolic rates are a relative variable, but commencing
an exercise program will not reduce those.

And what can you cite to back that up -

Any exercise physiology text (for example, McArdle, Katch and Katch)

Quoted message said:

that metabolism won't change in

I didn't say that it won't *change*. It may actually increase.

Commencing an exercise program will not cause a drop in metabolic rate that
results in no weight loss at what was previously maintenance.

Quoted message said:

the face of a rather sudden caloric deficit - or must we take it on
faith?

Take a look at any textbook on exercise physiology. Commencing endurance
exercise programs in the absence of instruction to change caloric intake
results in weight loss.

But it's pretty silly that you ask me to provide evidence since your conjecture
is absurd on its face -- what you're saying is that basal metabolic rate is
reduced by exercise, which contradicts most known facts and most obvious
intuitions about the effects of exercise (e.g. afterburn, energy cost of
recovery, protein synthesis, etc).

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Donovan said:

Commencing an exercise program will not cause a drop in metabolic rate that
results in no weight loss at what was previously maintenance.

[...]

Quoted message said:

Take a look at any textbook on exercise physiology. Commencing endurance
exercise programs in the absence of instruction to change caloric intake
results in weight loss.

But it's pretty silly that you ask me to provide evidence since your conjecture
is absurd on its face -- what you're saying is that basal metabolic rate is
reduced by exercise, which contradicts most known facts and most obvious
intuitions about the effects of exercise (e.g. afterburn, energy cost of
recovery, protein synthesis, etc).

The exercise physiology textbook section of my personal library is
rather scanty, and I'm not sufficiently fixated on this to spend hours
of research. I was rather hoping you'd do the research for me, then
report back saying "you're right, I'm wrong; a few more of those and
I'll be ready to concede your infallibility." ;-)

The notion that human bodies have a "starvation response" of reducing
metabolism in response to caloric deficits seems, AFAICT, widely
accepted - it's certainly widely spread by people who aren't obviously
crackpots, some of whom even sport credentials.

The notion that exercise increases metabolism is of course also widely
accepted.

Beyond that, it looks like it's gonna take more than ten minutes of
googling to become an expert on who the experts are and what their
research and opinions say about what happens when these factors collide
- i.e. exercise helping create the caloric deficit which induces this
metabolic slowdown.

Ten minutes of googling _is_ sufficient to find anecdotal reports
wherein people claim to have counted calories, exercised, and failed to
lose weight. Some claim to have finally lost weight after adding back
a few hundred daily calories.

For all we know, the OP may have been in a relatively "starvation"
equilibrium prior to the exercise routine, and her body's reaction is
just that much more hair-trigger.

Quoted message said:

... intuitions about the effects of exercise (e.g. afterburn ...

Is that the same afterburn you characterized as "minimal" a few months
ago? http://tinyurl.com/9xodv

Hey, I'm no exercise / metabolism / weight loss guru, and unfortunately
I've never gotten myself organized to the point of truly tracking daily
calories vs. exercise vs. weight, but my personal experience as a
runner and an eater and a scale owner reflects a more complex dance of
variables than a dead simple model with a constant basal metabolism
etc. so that fat loss = (exercise kcal - delta dietary kcal) / 3500.

I know I know, Occam's Razor demands the simpler solution - that I and
anyone else with experience diverging from the beautifully simple
linear model are delusionsal. ;-)

Laila said:

I don't eat enough. It's not that I don't want to eat (I'm not
anorexic), I'm just not that hungry all the time.
So, is there anyone who can give me a few tips about what
to eat, how many, when, ...

I'm curious: how much DO you eat in a day? And the same amount every
day?

Maybe if you need more calories but aren't hungry, you can drink some
of those calories?

Anything sweet will give you calories: soda, a sports drink, fruit
juice, a milk shake, sugar water, beer, a White Russian...

I'd suggest some sports drink like Gatorade (a lot of us prefer other
drinks, but Gatorade is the best known) before running, mostly because
some of those other choices are too sweet, and too high a concentration
of sugar can interfere with your running.

Afterward - as soon after as possible - you could go for some of the
sweeter stuff like the fruit juice. If you're hungry enough to eat
afterward, this is a good time for it - your body is better able to
process carbs after exercise - especially the first 15-30 minutes, less
so up to 2 hours after.

Charlie Pendejo said:

Donovan said:

Commencing an exercise program will not cause a drop in metabolic rate that
results in no weight loss at what was previously maintenance.

[...]

Quoted message said:

Take a look at any textbook on exercise physiology. Commencing endurance
exercise programs in the absence of instruction to change caloric intake
results in weight loss.

But it's pretty silly that you ask me to provide evidence since your
conjecture is absurd on its face -- what you're saying is that basal
metabolic rate is reduced by exercise, which contradicts most known facts
and most obvious intuitions about the effects of exercise (e.g. afterburn,
energy cost of recovery, protein synthesis, etc).

The exercise physiology textbook section of my personal library is
rather scanty, and I'm not sufficiently fixated on this to spend hours
of research. I was rather hoping you'd do the research for me, then
report back saying "you're right, I'm wrong; a few more of those and
I'll be ready to concede your infallibility." ;-)

That's rather optimistic of you (-;

Quoted message said:

The notion that human bodies have a "starvation response" of reducing
metabolism in response to caloric deficits seems, AFAICT, widely
accepted -

Yes, but the point is that you need to go some way below your pre-existing
maintenance to get to this "starvation response" point.

If the typical couch potato maintains at 2000 cal/day of fairly unrestrained
eating, they will *NOT* get a starvation response by spending 100 cal/day more
or by reducing intake by 100 calories.

And even when you *do* get that starvation response, you are not going to
*gain* weight by expending *more* calories. At most, you will not lose quite
as much weight.

Quoted message said:

Ten minutes of googling _is_ sufficient to find anecdotal reports
wherein people claim to have counted calories, exercised, and failed to
lose weight. Some claim to have finally lost weight after adding back
a few hundred daily calories.

For all we know, the OP may have been in a relatively "starvation"
equilibrium prior to the exercise routine, and her body's reaction is
just that much more hair-trigger.

Nonsense.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

... intuitions about the effects of exercise (e.g. afterburn ...

Is that the same afterburn you characterized as "minimal" a few months
ago? http://tinyurl.com/9xodv

Yes, I did say that. So what ?

Wy are you reading that any way ? The stuff on Lance's website is soo much more
entertaining than anything I've ever written ...

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Ylan Segal said:

Charlie Pendejo said:

David Geesaman said:

[...] drinking at least 1 liter of water or hydrating fluids per day. Much
more or much less is not good.

What's your basis for saying >> 1L of water is not good? I drink
considerably more than that daily - am I doing something wrong?
Anything I should be aware of?

Actually, I was thinking the same thing. I estimate my daily consumption
at ~3 liters of water, plus some coffee and tea.

The often-quoted rule of thumb is 8 glasses of water a day, which is
roughly 2 liters. However, I remember reading an article that said there
really was no research behind that figure.

The Institute of Medicine recommends 3.7 liters of total water from all
beverages for men and 2.7 l. for women:

If you eat mainly fruits and vegetables you won't
need as much water than if you eat mainly meatballs.
Beyond the carbs (simple and complex) fruits and
vegetables contain mostly water. It all depends on
diet, run time/length etc. Eight glasses a day is a
general recommendation for the averge couch potato
who tends to be dehydrated anyway and drinks only
when thirsty (and then often alcohol, which dehydrates
even more.)

Quoted message said:

http://www.iom.edu/report.asp?id=18495

My wife's nutritionist recommended drinking lots of water. Her words:
"Your urine should be clear 2 hours after waking and stay that way all
day". That applied for everyone, not just those wanting to loose weight.
I pretty much follow that.

Drinking a gallon of water or more a day probably
requires extra electrolyte replacement. Unless you
live in a hot clime or run long every day 1/2 gal
is probably adequate on average with other fliud
sources (coffee, tea, carrot sticks...)