Floyd Landis and me

is this sport (as exciting as it is) really that clean

should we in the modern age expect behaviour from top cyclists

wada dont really seem to interested in making sure the punishment fits the crime.

being banned from a sport is not far reaching enough in my view i think that records of his past wins should be taken off him as well.

Is it really any surprise that a man named 'Floyd' has tested positive for drug use?

From the news reports I've heard, he has tested positive to testosterone.

Males naturaly produce testosterone, don't they?

Isn't Floyd Landus a male?

Along with other hormones produced during very intence exercise, isn't there an increase in the production in the body, specially males?

How much testosterone is too much for a male?

[font=Franklin Gothic Medium] Landis gives positive drugs test (from news.bbc.co.uk)
[/font][font=Franklin Gothic Medium]
Tour de France winner Floyd Landis has given a positive drugs test, his Phonak team revealed.
[/font] [font=Franklin Gothic Medium]The 30-year-old American, who claimed Tour de France victory on Sunday, has tested positive for excess levels of the male sex hormone testosterone. [/font]

[font=Franklin Gothic Medium]The positive test came after stage 17 of the Tour, which saw Landis record an epic victory after struggling on the final climb the day before. [/font]

[font=Franklin Gothic Medium]Landis has been suspended pending results of his B sample analysis. [/font]

[font=Franklin Gothic Medium]The International Cycling Union (UCI) announced on Wednesday that a rider had failed a doping test but would not reveal his name.
[/font]

[font=Franklin Gothic Medium]"The Phonak Cycling Team was notified on Wednesday by the UCI of an unusual level of testosterone/epitestosterone ratio in the test made on Floyd Landis after stage 17 of the Tour de France," said a team statement.
[/font]

[font=Franklin Gothic Medium]"The team management and the rider were both totally surprised of this physiological result. [/font]

[font=Franklin Gothic Medium]"The rider will ask in the upcoming days for the counter analysis (B sample) to prove either that this result has come from a natural process or that this is the result of a mistake." [/font]

[font=Franklin Gothic Medium]Landis later denied cheating and said he had high levels of testosterone occuring naturally in his body. [/font]

[font=Franklin Gothic Medium]He also said cortisone shots he has been taking for a hip problem or medication he has been using to treat a thyroid condition might have had an effect. [/font]

[font=Franklin Gothic Medium]Phonak said that if the second sample confirmed the positive test, Landis would be sacked. [/font]

[font=Franklin Gothic Medium]"In application of the Pro Tour Ethical Code, the rider will not race anymore until this problem is totally clear," the statement added.
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[font=Franklin Gothic Medium]"If the result of the B sample analysis confirms the result of the A sample, the rider will be dismissed and will then pass the corresponding endocrinological examinations." [/font]

[font=Franklin Gothic Medium]UCI spokesman Enrico Carpani said Landis had requested the analysis of the B sample. [/font]

[font=Franklin Gothic Medium]"We are confident in the first test. For us the first one is already good," he said. [/font]

[font=Franklin Gothic Medium]Testosterone is included as an anabolic steroid on World Anti-Doping Agency's list of banned substances and its use can be punished by a two-year ban. [/font]

[font=Franklin Gothic Medium]Landis had already withdrawn from two races in Europe this week, Wednesday's Acht van Chaam street race in the Netherlands and Thursday's Jyske Bank Grand Prix in Denmark. [/font]

[font=Franklin Gothic Medium]"Today, Phonak confirmed the cancellation. They could not say anything about why Landis has disappeared," said Jyske Bank Grand Prix spokesman Nils Finderup. [/font]

[font=Franklin Gothic Medium]"We have tried to call him, to call his agent, and to call the head of the Phonak team, but no one has answered." [/font]

[font=Franklin Gothic Medium]Organisers of the Acht van Chaam event were also angry at Landis' no-show. [/font]

[font=Franklin Gothic Medium]Race agent John van den Akker said: "We are very annoyed. We have invested a lot of money to ensure his appearance and we would have expected some kind of explanation." [/font]

[font=Franklin Gothic Medium]Landis finished 57 seconds ahead of Spain's Oscar Pereiro in the general classification to claim his first Tour de France title last weekend.

[font=Arial Narrow]news.bbc.co.uk5221122.stmOpen ↗[/font]
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Look at this more informative post
forums.bicycling.com5861041301Open ↗
all is not what appears on the main news bulletins - the methodology behind this testing needs open scrutiny, he deserves some benefir of the doubt imho 🙄

fauxpas said:

[font=Franklin Gothic Medium] Landis gives positive drugs test (from news.bbc.co.uk)
[/font][font=Franklin Gothic Medium]
Tour de France winner Floyd Landis has given a positive drugs test, his Phonak team revealed.
[/font][font=Franklin Gothic Medium][font=Arial Narrow]news.bbc.co.uk5221122.stmOpen ↗[/font]
[/font]

overall if the ruling body find him guilty then that is that

guilty - take shirts and medals and bike and make hime play lawn bowls

not guilty - apologise and say sorry im a stupid french scientist

easy

[img]cyclingforums.comwink.gifOpen ↗[/img]

Well who's a dirty drug cheat then? turns out it is Floyd. What surprises me so is that with close to 60 other riders excluded for just being rumoured to be involved in drugs, he still took them. The report is that there was both natural and synthetic hormones in his system. I feel robbed that I stayed up all night watching this fantastic sporting event only to find out the winner is a cheat.

Thankfully it won't stop me from watching next year. For others though that could turn them off this exciting sport for good. And that is a shame. What parent wants to put their children into a sport where there is a chance that their little darling will be handed some magic potion to make them win the next race but shrink their testicles.
Floyd will pay for this for the rest of his life. He won't be remebered as the Tour de France winner he will be remembered as the winner who cheated and had it taken away from him. Does anyone remeber anything positive about Ben Johnson, except his drug test? Ponder that Floyd!

mjs4300 said:

Well who's a dirty drug cheat then? turns out it is Floyd. What surprises me so is that with close to 60 other riders excluded for just being rumoured to be involved in drugs, he still took them. The report is that there was both natural and synthetic hormones in his system. I feel robbed that I stayed up all night watching this fantastic sporting event only to find out the winner is a cheat.

Thankfully it won't stop me from watching next year. For others though that could turn them off this exciting sport for good. And that is a shame. What parent wants to put their children into a sport where there is a chance that their little darling will be handed some magic potion to make them win the next race but shrink their testicles.
Floyd will pay for this for the rest of his life. He won't be remebered as the Tour de France winner he will be remembered as the winner who cheated and had it taken away from him. Does anyone remeber anything positive about Ben Johnson, except his drug test? Ponder that Floyd!

I'll still remember the 17th stage into Morzine as a fantastic ride, regardless of testosterone.

"I'll still remember the 17th stage into Morzine as a fantastic ride, regardless of testosterone."

artemidorus please respond to this hypothetical

I turn up at the tour de France and announce that I will join the peloton as an experiment. I will be fully pumped to the eyeballs with testosterone, to see if I can hang with the big boys. I go out on stage 17 and perform the way Landis did to Morzine, would you describe my performance as memorable and fantastic.

Somehow I doubt it.

Dont get caught up in the hype of the tour. This guy may as well have placed a small motor on his machine, or hung on to a team car going up the col's. The guy is a cheater, a liar, and a thief who has tarnished further the sport of cycling.
Give him a life ban, remove the teams licence to compete. Make Landis pay back all monies earned from this years race and any other monies he is likely to earn in the future, and finally press for criminal charges against him for illegal drug use.
These guys make me sick. Junky scum.

MPCRUSHER said:

"I'll still remember the 17th stage into Morzine as a fantastic ride, regardless of testosterone."

artemidorus please respond to this hypothetical

I turn up at the tour de France and announce that I will join the peloton as an experiment. I will be fully pumped to the eyeballs with testosterone, to see if I can hang with the big boys. I go out on stage 17 and perform the way Landis did to Morzine, would you describe my performance as memorable and fantastic.

Somehow I doubt it.

Dont get caught up in the hype of the tour. This guy may as well have placed a small motor on his machine, or hung on to a team car going up the col's. The guy is a cheater, a liar, and a thief who has tarnished further the sport of cycling.
Give him a life ban, remove the teams licence to compete. Make Landis pay back all monies earned from this years race and any other monies he is likely to earn in the future, and finally press for criminal charges against him for illegal drug use.
These guys make me sick. Junky scum.

No offence, MPCRUSHER, but you can take all the big T you like and you won't ride like Floyd did! 😎 He's at the top of the cycling gene pool, but rather lower on the IQ gene pool. If you could ride like that, I would be impressed!
He was reckless and stupid and has probably killed his career.
I suspect that the difference between his behaviour and that of many other cyclists is craftiness. Doping will continue in all sports as long as the dopers can stay ahead of the officials, which will probably be indefinitely. Providing that the athletes are reasonably protected from harming themselves, there isn't a great deal more that can be done about it, other than to catch and punish the dumb ones like Floyd. Getting uptight about it isn't productive.
Calling him a junkie is simply emotive and silly. If/when you go on medication for high blood pressure, high cholesterol, coronary disease or osteoporosis, will you be a junkie? Pharmaceuticals themselves are not intrinsically wrong or evil, but their usage is sometimes inappropriate.

artemidorus said:

No offence, MPCRUSHER, but you can take all the big T you like and you won't ride like Floyd did! 😎 He's at the top of the cycling gene pool, but rather lower on the IQ gene pool. If you could ride like that, I would be impressed!
He was reckless and stupid and has probably killed his career.
I suspect that the difference between his behaviour and that of many other cyclists is craftiness. Doping will continue in all sports as long as the dopers can stay ahead of the officials, which will probably be indefinitely. Providing that the athletes are reasonably protected from harming themselves, there isn't a great deal more that can be done about it, other than to catch and punish the dumb ones like Floyd. Getting uptight about it isn't productive.
Calling him a junkie is simply emotive and silly. If/when you go on medication for high blood pressure, high cholesterol, coronary disease or osteoporosis, will you be a junkie? Pharmaceuticals themselves are not intrinsically wrong or evil, but their usage is sometimes inappropriate.

OK

If Stuart Ogrady is inserted into my hypothetical instead of me would you describe his performance as memorable and fantastic? I just cant believe that you would be impressed by a performance that is built on a lie.
There is nothing emotional about calling him a junkie. I understand these drugs exist for medicinal reasons and by no means would I suggest that a person undergoing treatment with such a junkie. Take morphine, a drug widely used to help people deal with pain. Someone who buys the stuff on a corner from a dealer and shoots it up their arm we would all feel comfortable labelling a junkie.
What is the difference here with Landis? Only your ability to rationalise it.

Daddy I won the NSW individual time trial with the help of some medicinal Pseudoephedrine did I do good? Did I do good? Yes son I am so proud of your memorable and fantastic ride.

MPCRUSHER said:

OK

If Stuart Ogrady is inserted into my hypothetical instead of me would you describe his performance as memorable and fantastic?

Yes, and rather unexpected!

Quoted post said:

I just cant believe that you would be impressed by a performance that is built on a lie.

If you wish to remain unimpressed by pharmaceutically enhanced performances, then I suggest that you refrain from watching any top level sport. If it weren't down to a bungling Spanish doctor, Ulrich or Basso might well have won doped to the ears with their own blood. Who knows what else we don't find out about? And that's just in cycling. Fl's performance was based more on genes, hard work and toughness than it was on the androgen. Don't get me wrong, I wish that he hadn't used the gear, but I'm not going to let it destroy my interest in bike racing.

Quoted post said:

There is nothing emotional about calling him a junkie. I understand these drugs exist for medicinal reasons and by no means would I suggest that a person undergoing treatment with such a junkie. Take morphine, a drug widely used to help people deal with pain. Someone who buys the stuff on a corner from a dealer and shoots it up their arm we would all feel comfortable labelling a junkie.
What is the difference here with Landis? Only your ability to rationalise it.

A junkie is an addict, whereas none of these sport drugs are addictive. But, I guess, if you're happy to call any smoker or regular drinker a junkie, then I'm happy to go along with your definition.

Quoted post said:

Daddy I won the NSW individual time trial with the help of some medicinal Pseudoephedrine did I do good? Did I do good? Yes son I am so proud of your memorable and fantastic ride.

You show your misunderstanding of my point. I'm not saying that we have to be happy about doping, but that we have to accept that there is little to be done about it. An outstanding performance is only ever going to depend minimally on drugs.
Your example is bad, as sympathomimetic doping is dangerous and easily detected. I would have to have a grudging respect for a son who did that, but I wouldn't be happy about it.

artemidorus said:

Yes, and rather unexpected!

If you wish to remain unimpressed by pharmaceutically enhanced performances, then I suggest that you refrain from watching any top level sport. If it weren't down to a bungling Spanish doctor, Ulrich or Basso might well have won doped to the ears with their own blood. Who knows what else we don't find out about? And that's just in cycling. Fl's performance was based more on genes, hard work and toughness than it was on the androgen. Don't get me wrong, I wish that he hadn't used the gear, but I'm not going to let it destroy my interest in bike racing.

A junkie is an addict, whereas none of these sport drugs are addictive. But, I guess, if you're happy to call any smoker or regular drinker a junkie, then I'm happy to go along with your definition.

You show your misunderstanding of my point. I'm not saying that we have to be happy about doping, but that we have to accept that there is little to be done about it. An outstanding performance is only ever going to depend minimally on drugs.
Your example is bad, as sympathomimetic doping is dangerous and easily detected. I would have to have a grudging respect for a son who did that, but I wouldn't be happy about it.

Ref: Dictionary.com Junky 2. One who has an insatiable interest or devotion: a sports junkie.

As we know, a junky will do just about anything to get a fix. Would taking drugs to achieve the zenith of cycling be something a junky would consider doing?

I have to disagree with you on the point that we need to accept that there is little that can be done about the drug use problem in pro cycling. Operacion Puerto in Spain has clearly demonstrated to all that there is indeed a lot that can be done to clean up the sport. We need an international standard for testing (at least one that works and is binding). Life bans as a deterrant, criminal prosecution for the riders and teams.

Why not pay some riders a large fee to work undercover as a government drug enforcement agent. Infiltrate the teams, disclose information on drug movements and names of doctors who circulate to peloton rumour mill.

When a rider gets done for doping, ban the entire team for four years. This might be a good deterrant. Peer pressure does amazing things you know.

I am just looking at the problem from outside. I have no predjudice or affiliations to protect. Objective and creative thinking is the key to removing this scourge.

Operacion Puerto hinged on the fact that the doctor was clearly so arrogant that he thought he'd never get caught. If he'd cared, or been smart, the bust that shut him down wouldn't have caught any riders in the absence of enforced DNA testing of the entire body of professional cyclists. Where he is caught, x others continue with the same work.
The situation is quite analogous to the unwinnable war on illegal drugs.
Who is going to pay for your war on sporting drugs? Not me and my taxes, I hope.
Testing can never keep up with the development of new drugs and techniques, although common sense dictates that it should do its best to keep up with the known dangerous ones.
By the way, do you really think that Floyd has an insatiable interest in testosterone? In winning, perhaps - I'd accept your labelling of him as a victory junkie.

[font=Times New Roman]A headline from todays new says that Landis still strongly denies the allegations. Is he in denial? All of us want clean sport. Look at the hapless Wendell Sailor. He will not be remembered as a top grade rugby or NRL player. Just a cokehead. To say that the guys who take steroids are not addicts is wrong. The drug may not be the addiction. It may well be the notoriety, and the thrill of the win at any cost. Whatever the motivation it is an addiction. Like I said before, there were close to 60 others excluded before the race even started. So to use them at that point only shows a lack of control that is akin to addiction. Viva Le Tour, 2007 drug free!! 😄 😄 [/font]

mjs4300 said:

[font=Times New Roman]A headline from todays new says that Landis still strongly denies the allegations. Is he in denial? All of us want clean sport. Look at the hapless Wendell Sailor. He will not be remembered as a top grade rugby or NRL player. Just a cokehead. To say that the guys who take steroids are not addicts is wrong. The drug may not be the addiction. It may well be the notoriety, and the thrill of the win at any cost. Whatever the motivation it is an addiction. Like I said before, there were close to 60 others excluded before the race even started. So to use them at that point only shows a lack of control that is akin to addiction. Viva Le Tour, 2007 drug free!! 😄 😄 [/font]

Addict has a specific meaning; performance enhancing drugs (except cocaine/speed) are not addictive.
I think that it is simplistic to state that these men, in general, are addicted to notoriety or winning at any cost, although the latter is the only reasonable explanation of Landis' idiocy.
It must be very frustating to know that, despite the best of genes and the most rigorous training, you will only win if you use the doping techniques, because everyone else is. It's their career and they want to be the best. I can understand why they do it, and I can recognise that it will never be stopped, even if I don't like it. All we can hope for is that the situation be controlled as best as possible.
Looking at it another way, if no drug cheats are being busted, then the system isn't working - so we can't be too unhappy when they are busted.

artemidorus said:

Addict has a specific meaning; performance enhancing drugs (except cocaine/speed) are not addictive.
I think that it is simplistic to state that these men, in general, are addicted to notoriety or winning at any cost, although the latter is the only reasonable explanation of Landis' idiocy.
It must be very frustating to know that, despite the best of genes and the most rigorous training, you will only win if you use the doping techniques, because everyone else is. It's their career and they want to be the best. I can understand why they do it, and I can recognise that it will never be stopped, even if I don't like it. All we can hope for is that the situation be controlled as best as possible.
Looking at it another way, if no drug cheats are being busted, then the system isn't working - so we can't be too unhappy when they are busted.

We can only wonder now though, for Floyd in his mind is the cost to high? What will become of him now. Sacked by Phonak, shunned by the cycling commumity, is this the price he was really willing to pay? like a bidding war gone pearshaped perhaps he lost sight of good judgement and only thought of the yellow jersey and having it on his back. One day when he writes his book, if we actually read it we might find out.

[font=Times New Roman]." Look at the hapless Wendell Sailor. He will not be remembered as a top grade rugby or NRL player. Just a cokehead." [/font]
Wendall although stupid, I will always remember as the guy who dominated the rugby league world cup.

As for Landis, an illegal substance is an illegal substance, and if he is found guilty he should be banned and stripped of his title. He knew it was illegal and knew the consequences so no sympathy at all coming from me. To say that you can understand why they do it is rediculous, why cheat in a sport you love so much, how could you live with yourself knowing that you won unclean. It'd be like a bricky leaving gaps in a wall of a double brick house, how could you live with yourself knowing that the wall is weakend and could cave in. look at poor warne if he gats banned for takeing a drug to cure sickness, which would really have no affect on his performance, then I say Landis should be banned for life for takeing something to improve his.

It just doesn't add up does it? He's had lots of tests both before and after this one, and in this one he tests positive for testosterone.

Sorry, but doping with testosterone just doesn't work like that. So even if he did, which I also doubt, it won't have given anymore benefit than a placebo.