Flashing lights revisited

Mike Causer said:

The DfT have recently issued a new guidance document on lights, which
confirms that if a flashing light light has a steady mode it MUST be
BS6102/3 compliant in that mode and marked to say so. So there probably
isn't a single fashing light on sale in this country that can be used
legally. If there is such a thing as an LED lamp that has no steady mode
it probably flashes in a funky pattern, which is not allowed.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_roads/documents/page/dft_roads_612441.hcsp

This document also takes away the exemption from pedal reflectors that
pre-October 1985 bikes enjoyed. OTOH, the actual Statutory Instrument
doesn't include any change to that regulation :-/

That document is an advisoury note and is not legally binding. If it
was it would make life impractical if you ever use your bike at night.

Badly written and erroneous. Nice to see the DfT is keeping up it's
standards.

...d

Quoted message said:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/20052559.htm

The CTC have updated Chris Juden's very informative technical pages to
point to the document.

http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=4072

Mike

Mike Causer said:

The DfT have recently issued a new guidance document on lights, which
confirms that if a flashing light light has a steady mode it MUST be
BS6102/3 compliant in that mode and marked to say so. So there probably
isn't a single fashing light on sale in this country that can be used
legally. If there is such a thing as an LED lamp that has no steady mode
it probably flashes in a funky pattern, which is not allowed.

There is the Cateye TL AU100 BS, which claims compliance. I've been
considering one to sit in place of the reflector on my rack, in addition
to the seat-post mounted flasher, but I'm not sure it'll mount there easily.

Matt

Matthew Haigh said:

Mike Causer said:

The DfT have recently issued a new guidance document on lights, which
confirms that if a flashing light light has a steady mode it MUST be
BS6102/3 compliant in that mode and marked to say so. So there probably
isn't a single fashing light on sale in this country that can be used
legally. If there is such a thing as an LED lamp that has no steady mode
it probably flashes in a funky pattern, which is not allowed.

There is the Cateye TL AU100 BS, which claims compliance.

Read the small print. It's not compliant if you use the bracket that
came in the box. You need to buy a different bracket which no bike
shop stocks in order for it to be compliant.

Quoted message said:

considering one to sit in place of the reflector on my rack, in addition
to the seat-post mounted flasher, but I'm not sure it'll mount there easily.

I have almost exactly this arrangement - AU100 BS on the pannier rack,
flasher on the seatpost (actually, it's a headrest post, but it's
where a seatpost would be on a lesser vehicle). The BS light is quite
good - reasonable light spread, batteries last practically forever
even in steady mode. I left a wide reflector on the rack when I added
the LED light, however.

regards, Ian SMith
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Quoted message said:

I have almost exactly this arrangement - AU100 BS on the pannier rack,
flasher on the seatpost (actually, it's a headrest post, but it's
where a seatpost would be on a lesser vehicle). The BS light is quite
good - reasonable light spread, batteries last practically forever
even in steady mode. I left a wide reflector on the rack when I added
the LED light, however.

Unfortunately I think in the light's instructions it points out that it
only meets bs if mounted on a gadget that you have to buy separately,
not even the mount that is supplied with it.I don't think you can just
mount in a sensible way and meet the bs.

And this is just the rear light! It'even harder with the front.

It must be time to get the bs rightand make it observable by all
reasonable cyclists.
At the moment they seem to be designed for the delight of motor
insurance lawyers.

TerryJ

Quoted message said:

It must be time to get the bs rightand make it observable by all
reasonable cyclists.
At the moment they seem to be designed for the delight of motor
insurance lawyers.

Isn't there a get-around that lets us use lights approved by other EU
countries? Has anyone been 'caught' for not sticking to the letter of the
law?

On 21 Oct 2006, [email hidden] <[email hidden]> wrote:

[actually, I wrote this bit, but jonestl has omitted any attribution]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have almost exactly this arrangement - AU100 BS on the pannier rack,
flasher on the seatpost (actually, it's a headrest post, but it's

Unfortunately I think in the light's instructions it points out that it
only meets bs if mounted on a gadget that you have to buy separately,
not even the mount that is supplied with it.I don't think you can just
mount in a sensible way and meet the bs.

Yes, that would be why I said, in the very post you quoted:

"Read the small print. It's not compliant if you use the bracket that
came in the box. You need to buy a different bracket which no bike
shop stocks in order for it to be compliant."

I don't have it mounted on the bracket that came in the box.

regards, Ian SMith
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Mark Thompson said:

Quoted message said:

It must be time to get the bs rightand make it observable by all
reasonable cyclists.
At the moment they seem to be designed for the delight of motor
insurance lawyers.

Isn't there a get-around that lets us use lights approved by other EU
countries? Has anyone been 'caught' for not sticking to the letter of the
law?

Yes (but Greece doesn't count). No..

I think this is actually about the only way you can get a sensible set
of legal lights - use lights that meet the German standard.

Regarding getting caught - it's not the plod you want to worry about,
its the insurance company weasels. Suppose you get knocked off after
dark, in some way that is 100% the motorists fault. Your bike is
written off. Insurance company weasels inspect the bike and discover
you didn't have correct lights ... contributory negligence - you evil
cyclist, asking to be knocked off by the poor hard-done-by persecuted
motorist. I don't know if this has come to pass yet, but it's more
likely than that the police worry about your lights.

regards, Ian SMith
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in message <[email hidden]>,

(') said:

Quoted message said:

I have almost exactly this arrangement - AU100 BS on the pannier rack,
flasher on the seatpost (actually, it's a headrest post, but it's
where a seatpost would be on a lesser vehicle). The BS light is quite
good - reasonable light spread, batteries last practically forever
even in steady mode. I left a wide reflector on the rack when I added
the LED light, however.

Unfortunately I think in the light's instructions it points out that it
only meets bs if mounted on a gadget that you have to buy separately,
not even the mount that is supplied with it.I don't think you can just
mount in a sensible way and meet the bs.

As a matter of interest, what is it about the 'special' mount that
magically makes the light BS compliant?

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; All in all you're just another nick in the ball
-- Think Droid

Quoted message said:

Yes, that would be why I said, in the very post you quoted:

"Read the small print. It's not compliant if you use the bracket that
came in the box. You need to buy a different bracket which no bike
shop stocks in order for it to be compliant."

I don't have it mounted on the bracket that came in the box.

regards, Ian SMith

You are a rarity indeed, and I should read the posts more carefully.

What does it look like this bracket, where does it attach?Where did you
get it and what is it called?
I ask this because I looked for cateye brackets recently and there are
several, so it can be difficult to pick the right one to buy.
TerryJ

Ian Smith wrote on 22/10/2006 07:28 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Regarding getting caught - it's not the plod you want to worry about,
its the insurance company weasels. Suppose you get knocked off after
dark, in some way that is 100% the motorists fault. Your bike is
written off. Insurance company weasels inspect the bike and discover
you didn't have correct lights ... contributory negligence - you evil
cyclist, asking to be knocked off by the poor hard-done-by persecuted
motorist. I don't know if this has come to pass yet, but it's more
likely than that the police worry about your lights.

It has. The case of Olympic and Commonwealth Games cyclist Peter
Longbottom who was killed in York in 1998. The police and coroner
blamed him for wearing dark clothing, using an illegal flashing rear
light and cycling on an A-road at night.
http://archive.thisisyork.co.uk/1998/10/6/327187.html

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

"Ian Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 21 Oct 2006, [email hidden] <[email hidden]> wrote:

[actually, I wrote this bit, but jonestl has omitted any attribution]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have almost exactly this arrangement - AU100 BS on the pannier rack,
flasher on the seatpost (actually, it's a headrest post, but it's

Unfortunately I think in the light's instructions it points out that it
only meets bs if mounted on a gadget that you have to buy separately,
not even the mount that is supplied with it.I don't think you can just
mount in a sensible way and meet the bs.

Yes, that would be why I said, in the very post you quoted:

"Read the small print. It's not compliant if you use the bracket that
came in the box. You need to buy a different bracket which no bike
shop stocks in order for it to be compliant."

I don't have it mounted on the bracket that came in the box.

regards, Ian SMith
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Please remind me - what is it about the bracket that comes in the box that
makes it non-compliant ?

John Wilton said:

Please remind me - what is it about the bracket that comes in the box that
makes it non-compliant ?

Looking at the box the other day in Halfords (I know, but I was trying
to find some gloves for my son and we'd already done the LBS), it seems
as if the non-compliant one has a "cable-tie" type adjustable strap, the
compliant one has a fixed-diameter strap to go around the seat post. But
that was just the impression I got from reading the blurb on the box - I
note that the Cateye website doesn't mention the issue, nor do the
online suppliers I've looked at.

I also noticed that some of the other Cateye rear LEDs had a sticker on
them claiming compliance (some, but not all, of the more "traditional"
bar-shaped 5 LED type units). I didn't take note of the model numbers,
just that they didn't appear to have an easy way of mounting to a rack
without doing some metalwork.

Matt

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have almost exactly this arrangement - AU100 BS on the pannier
rack, flasher on the seatpost (actually, it's a headrest post, but
it's where a seatpost would be on a lesser vehicle). The BS light
is quite good - reasonable light spread, batteries last practically
forever even in steady mode. I left a wide reflector on the rack
when I added the LED light, however.

Unfortunately I think in the light's instructions it points out that
it only meets bs if mounted on a gadget that you have to buy
separately, not even the mount that is supplied with it.I don't think
you can just mount in a sensible way and meet the bs.

Pretty certain that if it were fixed to the vertical plate on the rear of
many racks, then it complies.

Quoted message said:

It must be time to get the bs rightand make it observable by all
reasonable cyclists.
At the moment they seem to be designed for the delight of motor
insurance lawyers.

See my comment in other thread about whether this is actually FUD. Which
really only benefits the light and reflector sellers.

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

Simon Brooke said:

As a matter of interest, what is it about the 'special' mount that
magically makes the light BS compliant?

All the Cateye brackets I've got (five fitted to bikes, and a couple of
spares) mount onto a tube and have a rotatable fixing so that the
reflector can be aligned vertically and horizontally no matter what the
angle of the tube. However BS6102-2 says "7.1.1 Construction The
reflector and/or mount shall incorporate a distinct prefered assembly
method to ensure that the reflector can be mounted in its designed
orientation with regard to the bicycle." As the bracket can rotate in
two axes it clearly doesn't comply with that requirement. As there is
nothing on any bike that is guaranteed to be at any particular angle in
the vertical plane there would have to be a range of complying brackets at
varying angles which attach to something fixed in the horizontal plane.

So the big manufacturers probably have a handfull of slightly differing
brackets that attach to the brake mounting bolts and so comply, but
there's no economic way that over the counter parts can do so.

Mike

Mike Causer said:

All the Cateye brackets I've got (five fitted to bikes, and a couple of
spares) mount onto a tube and have a rotatable fixing so that the
reflector can be aligned vertically and horizontally no matter what the
angle of the tube. However BS6102-2 says "7.1.1 Construction The
reflector and/or mount shall incorporate a distinct prefered assembly
method to ensure that the reflector can be mounted in its designed
orientation with regard to the bicycle." As the bracket can rotate in
two axes it clearly doesn't comply with that requirement. As there is
nothing on any bike that is guaranteed to be at any particular angle in
the vertical plane there would have to be a range of complying brackets at
varying angles which attach to something fixed in the horizontal plane.

So the big manufacturers probably have a handfull of slightly differing
brackets that attach to the brake mounting bolts and so comply, but
there's no economic way that over the counter parts can do so.

The bit you have quoted is referring to reflectors, is there a similar
rule for lights?, or are the terms "light" and "reflector" synonyms as
far as the legislation is concerned?.

--
Don Whybrow

Sequi Bonum Non Time

'Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.

Don Whybrow said:

The bit you have quoted is referring to reflectors, is there a similar
rule for lights?, or are the terms "light" and "reflector" synonyms as far
as the legislation is concerned?.

No, lights are BS6102-3 and reflectors are BS6102-2. All that BS6102-3
says about mountings for lights is: "Introduction [...] It has been
assumed for the purposes of this standard, that the headlamp is mounted in
the usual position on the headtube of a cycle, and that the beam centre
will strike the road at a distance of about 16m in front of the lamp [....]."

Mike

Don Whybrow wrote in reply to Mike:

Quoted message said:

The bit you have quoted is referring to reflectors, is there a similar
rule for lights?, or are the terms "light" and "reflector" synonyms as
far as the legislation is concerned?.

The Cateye light mentioned has an built in reflector. I remember it being
mentioned on this group before that only the reflector is BS compliant (when
used with a certain bracket), not the light.

~PB

Matthew Haigh said:

John Wilton said:

Please remind me - what is it about the bracket that comes in the
box that makes it non-compliant ?

Looking at the box the other day in Halfords (I know, but I was trying
to find some gloves for my son and we'd already done the LBS), it seems
as if the non-compliant one has a "cable-tie" type adjustable strap, the
compliant one has a fixed-diameter strap to go around the seat post. But
that was just the impression I got from reading the blurb on the box

That was the impression I got too - I wondered if ratchet-type strap
assemblies can't meet the code because of some subtlety of wording in
the BS. Possibly it talks about screw-tightened to ensure it does not
come loose or cannot rotate or some such. A bit like the wording that
says 'electrical filament lamp', which was written to rule out carbide
and oil lamps, but which accidentally ruled out LEDs when they were
invented.

I am under the impression that the compliant mount is a particular
diameter band clamp tightened by a screw without any
quick-release-ness.

regards, Ian SMith
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Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yes, that would be why I said, in the very post you quoted:

"Read the small print. It's not compliant if you use the bracket that
came in the box. You need to buy a different bracket which no bike
shop stocks in order for it to be compliant."

I don't have it mounted on the bracket that came in the box.

You are a rarity indeed, and I should read the posts more carefully.

What does it look like this bracket, where does it attach?Where did you
get it and what is it called?

I looks like a piece of aluminium plate I had in my bits box, drilled,
shaped, bent and smoothed to hold a butchered bit of another cateye
lamp bracket and thereby interface between the lamp and my pannier
rack in such a way that teh lamp cannot rotate down and point at the
floor.

I got it from my bits box.

It doesn't have a name.

Sorry.

regards, Ian SMith
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